All of these people listed in Hebrews 11 have the faith that is a fruit of the Holy Spirit received in their regeneration. All of the old testament saints were quickened with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the same way that everybody else from the beginning of time until the last person to be born on earth is.
CHRIST THE CHOSEN ONE, THE ELECT OF THE FATHER
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FreeGrace2 said:
Not all the time. Just read Hebrews 11. And this isn't the issue anyway.
You are confused. The fruit of the Spirit is produced ONLY when the believer is filled with the Spirit.
Sorry, but wrong again. Very few of the OT saints were ever indwelt with the Spirit. Scholars refer to it as an enduement. God gave the Spirit to certain people for certain accomplishments. It was NOT universal.
Even king David could lose the Spirit, as he prayed in Isa 51:11 - Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
God removed the Holy Spirit from king Saul for his many sins.
But that is impossible today. All believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit, for the day of redemption.
Not all the time. Just read Hebrews 11. And this isn't the issue anyway.
You are confused. The fruit of the Spirit is produced ONLY when the believer is filled with the Spirit.
Sorry, but wrong again. Very few of the OT saints were ever indwelt with the Spirit. Scholars refer to it as an enduement. God gave the Spirit to certain people for certain accomplishments. It was NOT universal.
Even king David could lose the Spirit, as he prayed in Isa 51:11 - Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
God removed the Holy Spirit from king Saul for his many sins.
But that is impossible today. All believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit, for the day of redemption.
Only God's sheep can believe. Belief in spiritual things follows the new spiritual birth.
John 10:26-29 - But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you, my sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they know me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 10:26-29 - But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you, my sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they know me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
You are deeply confused with your interpretation of the scriptures, probably from consulting with other men's (scholars) false interpretation of the scriptures. Scripture proves scripture. You should just stick with trusting the scriptures to prove themselves, instead of consulting other men's opinions.
FreeGrace2 said:
t seems you're the one with the difficulty. In every verse that clearly shows the person must believe in Christ for salvation, you default to this unbiblical notion
You have it backwards. Only believers are God's sheep. Read John 10 carefully.
That's correct, per 1 Cor 2;14. However, the gospel is a trust issue, not a spiritual issue. Only believers can understand the filling of the Holy Spirit, producing the fruit of the Spirit, etc.
v.27 is a description of what His sheep DO, or OUGHT TO DO. There is no condition in v27 for becoming His sheep.
v.28 is the promise of eternal security. Once given the gift of eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.
t seems you're the one with the difficulty. In every verse that clearly shows the person must believe in Christ for salvation, you default to this unbiblical notion
You have it backwards. Only believers are God's sheep. Read John 10 carefully.
That's correct, per 1 Cor 2;14. However, the gospel is a trust issue, not a spiritual issue. Only believers can understand the filling of the Holy Spirit, producing the fruit of the Spirit, etc.
v.27 is a description of what His sheep DO, or OUGHT TO DO. There is no condition in v27 for becoming His sheep.
v.28 is the promise of eternal security. Once given the gift of eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.
No, I find that applying the Berean study method, calvinists have NO verses that SAY what they SAY. My understanding of Scripture is based on ONLY what the Scripture SAYS. Unlike yours.
That is exactly what I do. Why can't you find any verses that actually SAY what you keep SAYING?
Your presumption is faulty. I don't consult other men's opinions. In fact, that's what you have done, by listening to calvinist tainted pastors.
The test of truth is to have verses that SAY what you SAY. You don't. You just go on and on with your calvinist (reformed) talking points, but when asked for verses that say what you say, you don't provide any.
And the verses you do quote, I point out that they DON'T SAY what you SAY. Every time.
That is exactly what I do. Why can't you find any verses that actually SAY what you keep SAYING?
Your presumption is faulty. I don't consult other men's opinions. In fact, that's what you have done, by listening to calvinist tainted pastors.
The test of truth is to have verses that SAY what you SAY. You don't. You just go on and on with your calvinist (reformed) talking points, but when asked for verses that say what you say, you don't provide any.
And the verses you do quote, I point out that they DON'T SAY what you SAY. Every time.
FreeGrace2 said:
That wasn't what Paul told the jailer. He told the jailer he would be saved by believing in Jesus Christ. It is very clear to me that you are basically clueless about what Paul taught.
As if these verses change the clear meaning of the text of Acts 16:20-31? Nope,, they don't.
See post #268 for my explanation of these verses. Obviously you misunderstand them.
That wasn't what Paul told the jailer. He told the jailer he would be saved by believing in Jesus Christ. It is very clear to me that you are basically clueless about what Paul taught.
As if these verses change the clear meaning of the text of Acts 16:20-31? Nope,, they don't.
See post #268 for my explanation of these verses. Obviously you misunderstand them.
FreeGrace2 said:
You are confused. The fruit of the Spirit is produced ONLY when the believer is filled with the Spirit.
Except nothing of which you say here is found in Eph 2:1-5. So, what verses DO say what you say?
Do you know when a person receives the indwelling Holy Spirit? The Bible tells us plainly. Are you aware?
Your "just as I said" has no weight or meaning UNLESS what you SAY can be found in the Bible. So far, you haven't done that.
You are confused. The fruit of the Spirit is produced ONLY when the believer is filled with the Spirit.
Except nothing of which you say here is found in Eph 2:1-5. So, what verses DO say what you say?
Do you know when a person receives the indwelling Holy Spirit? The Bible tells us plainly. Are you aware?
Your "just as I said" has no weight or meaning UNLESS what you SAY can be found in the Bible. So far, you haven't done that.
None of the verses you gave explained ANY specific doctrine. And the Bible contains many doctrines, not just one.
But, at least you have admittedly, though unwittingly, that you CANNOT explain what you mean by this "1 true doctrine" that you speak of.
You just keep coming up short when asked for evidence from the Bible. You have not applied the Berean study method. I highly recommend that method for understanding the Bible.
But, at least you have admittedly, though unwittingly, that you CANNOT explain what you mean by this "1 true doctrine" that you speak of.
You just keep coming up short when asked for evidence from the Bible. You have not applied the Berean study method. I highly recommend that method for understanding the Bible.
All of God's sheep believe that there is a spiritual God, but many of God's sheep do not understand how they became God's sheep. ( John 6:39 & Eph 2:1-5 explains how they became sheep). They are the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Jer 50:6) (Matt 10:6) preachers of false doctrines have caused them to go astray. The lost sheep of the house of Israel, are those that go into the wide gate noted in Matt 7:13. The purpose of God's ordained preachers are to teach the lost sheep the good news of what Jesus has accomplished for them on the cross, (John 6:39) in an attempt to keep them from trusting in the old law of works for their eternal deliverance.
Trust=faith. The gospel is a spiritual issue, received by the faith that is a fruit of the Holy Spirit given in the new birth. The gospel was not written to deliver the unregenerate person eternally, but was written to instruct God's sheep as to how God wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here in this world.
You, no doubt, have your eternal inheritance secured, but you need to work out your own deliverance here in this world. (Phil 2:12).
What do you mean by "spiritual God"? That isn't a biblical term,, so why do you use NON-biblical terms? Can you just use the words that the Bible uses?
Huh? How can someone become a child of God and NOT know how they did? Do people have accidents and suddenly become something they don't understand? Your comments make no sense.
The figure of speech about God's sheep refers to believers in Christ. So your comment basically is this:
"many believers do not understand how they became believers." Now, do you really think that makes sense?
( John 6:39 & Eph 2:1-5 explains how they became sheep). [/QUOTE]
If someone doesn't understand HOW to become God's sheep, they AREN'T yet God's sheep. And neither Jn 6:39 or Eph 2:1-5 tell how to become a sheep.
The BEST VERSE that tells SPECIFICALLY HOW to become God's sheep is Acts 16:31, a verse that you still do not understand.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and YOU WILL be saved."
A person can ONLY BECOME God's sheep by KNOWING how to become one.
Lost sheep are UNSAVED AND UNREGENERATE people. They need to be saved.
Right. The wide gate refers to hell. That's where all unbelievers go when they die.
I see what you are doing: you are forcing "lost sheep" to mean "God's elect" who are already saved, because they are elect.
Nope. You are expressing only your opinion. Where does the Bible say any of this?
Wow. So you actually believe that "trusting in the old law of works is for their eternal deliverance". Maybe you're not a calvinist. I can't imagine any calvinist thinking that the "old law of works" is for their "eternal deliverance".
There is NO evangelical denomination that would agree with you. Whether Arminian or Calvinist leaning.
Don't you know that the Pharisees of Jesus' day believed just that? And Jesus braced them for it.
Right.
Your claim is empty. You have no verses that say that. And the gospel is real simple. God makes a promise about eternal salvation, and man has the free choice of either believing it or not. And there are results.
Believers in the gospel go to heaven. Unbelievers will go to hell, awaiting the LOF.
Since the new birth or regeneration occurs as a result of believing, your timing is completely off.
This is just completely off the wall, over the cliff, nonsense. Of course it is. I can't imagine what your theology is called, because it sure isn't biblical.
Well, since you wrongly believe that keeping the old law of works will result in eternal deliverance, of course you'd think this way.
I do, and on ONE basis alone. I have put my faith/trust completely in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ.
I know this refers to the process of sanctification, which is about spiritual growth.
But given your very big error in thinking that the old law of works will result in eternal deliverance, you aren't even in the ballpark.
Where did your teaching come from?
Huh? How can someone become a child of God and NOT know how they did? Do people have accidents and suddenly become something they don't understand? Your comments make no sense.
The figure of speech about God's sheep refers to believers in Christ. So your comment basically is this:
"many believers do not understand how they became believers." Now, do you really think that makes sense?
( John 6:39 & Eph 2:1-5 explains how they became sheep). [/QUOTE]
If someone doesn't understand HOW to become God's sheep, they AREN'T yet God's sheep. And neither Jn 6:39 or Eph 2:1-5 tell how to become a sheep.
The BEST VERSE that tells SPECIFICALLY HOW to become God's sheep is Acts 16:31, a verse that you still do not understand.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and YOU WILL be saved."
A person can ONLY BECOME God's sheep by KNOWING how to become one.
Lost sheep are UNSAVED AND UNREGENERATE people. They need to be saved.
Right. The wide gate refers to hell. That's where all unbelievers go when they die.
I see what you are doing: you are forcing "lost sheep" to mean "God's elect" who are already saved, because they are elect.
Nope. You are expressing only your opinion. Where does the Bible say any of this?
Wow. So you actually believe that "trusting in the old law of works is for their eternal deliverance". Maybe you're not a calvinist. I can't imagine any calvinist thinking that the "old law of works" is for their "eternal deliverance".
There is NO evangelical denomination that would agree with you. Whether Arminian or Calvinist leaning.
Don't you know that the Pharisees of Jesus' day believed just that? And Jesus braced them for it.
Right.
Your claim is empty. You have no verses that say that. And the gospel is real simple. God makes a promise about eternal salvation, and man has the free choice of either believing it or not. And there are results.
Believers in the gospel go to heaven. Unbelievers will go to hell, awaiting the LOF.
Since the new birth or regeneration occurs as a result of believing, your timing is completely off.
This is just completely off the wall, over the cliff, nonsense. Of course it is. I can't imagine what your theology is called, because it sure isn't biblical.
Well, since you wrongly believe that keeping the old law of works will result in eternal deliverance, of course you'd think this way.
I do, and on ONE basis alone. I have put my faith/trust completely in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ.
I know this refers to the process of sanctification, which is about spiritual growth.
But given your very big error in thinking that the old law of works will result in eternal deliverance, you aren't even in the ballpark.
Where did your teaching come from?
FreeGrace2 said:
Do you know when a person receives the indwelling Holy Spirit? The Bible tells us plainly. Are you aware?
Interesting. I ask you a question and rather than telling me what you know, you try to squirm your way out of answering and try to "turn the tables" on me.
Why would I ask a question that I didn't know the answer to? That would be weird. And I don't do that.
So I will conclude that you don't know the answer, and possibly never even thought about how one receives the indwelling Spirit.
So, here are the verses that speak directly to the indwelling of the Spirit;
Gal 3-
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
And since you don't believe Paul's answer to the jailer about how to be saved, I doubt that you will believe either of these verses either.
btw, I have never "condemned" you for not providing Scripture for all the things you claim. I merely point out the fact that you don't.
Since you felt "condemned" I hope you are being convicted in your soul.
Do you know when a person receives the indwelling Holy Spirit? The Bible tells us plainly. Are you aware?
Interesting. I ask you a question and rather than telling me what you know, you try to squirm your way out of answering and try to "turn the tables" on me.
Why would I ask a question that I didn't know the answer to? That would be weird. And I don't do that.
So I will conclude that you don't know the answer, and possibly never even thought about how one receives the indwelling Spirit.
So, here are the verses that speak directly to the indwelling of the Spirit;
Gal 3-
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
And since you don't believe Paul's answer to the jailer about how to be saved, I doubt that you will believe either of these verses either.
btw, I have never "condemned" you for not providing Scripture for all the things you claim. I merely point out the fact that you don't.
Since you felt "condemned" I hope you are being convicted in your soul.
I have shown you many scriptures about Jesus doctrine (his teachings) which bears the truth, if you interpret them right. You have rejected them due to your preconceived idea that the unregenerate person can understand the things of the Spirit.
John 1:17 - For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. This was what Jesus taught (his doctrine).
you will also refute this scripture with the same preconceived attitude as the others, but that seems to be your problem.
As far as your remark that you do not, by your belief, take any glory and honour away from God; I do not doubt that anyone on this forum is an elect child of God, and are included in those that God gave to Jesus to die for the redemption of their sins (not an offer to redeem them, but actually redeemed them). You have misinterpreted the scriptures to teach that mankind is not redeemed of their sins unless they accept, confess, choose, believe, repent, etc, This concept dishonours God and takes away his glory of your redemption by God's sovereign grace.
All of those "works" that you have credited for your redemption are actually good works that attribute to your deliverances as you sojourn here in this world as his redeemed child.
John 1:17 - For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. This was what Jesus taught (his doctrine).
you will also refute this scripture with the same preconceived attitude as the others, but that seems to be your problem.
As far as your remark that you do not, by your belief, take any glory and honour away from God; I do not doubt that anyone on this forum is an elect child of God, and are included in those that God gave to Jesus to die for the redemption of their sins (not an offer to redeem them, but actually redeemed them). You have misinterpreted the scriptures to teach that mankind is not redeemed of their sins unless they accept, confess, choose, believe, repent, etc, This concept dishonours God and takes away his glory of your redemption by God's sovereign grace.
All of those "works" that you have credited for your redemption are actually good works that attribute to your deliverances as you sojourn here in this world as his redeemed child.
Sorry it took so long to reply but had a very busy week.
In your argument - that Christ talked to His own in parables - that is not true. It is you that needs to go back and look at the example you gave in Mark 4: 10-14. It clearly states that Jesus Christ explained the parable to his own. Christ used parables when teaching in the presents of unsaved and religious Jews. His disciples were present and listened but Christ was not speaking directly for their benefit. Scripture says this, just before He began the parable:
Mark 4:1 And again he began to teach by the sea side. And there is gathered unto him a very great multitude, so that he entered into a boat, and sat in the sea; and all the multitude were by the sea on the land.
Mark 4:2 And he taught them many things in parables, and said unto them in his teaching,
The Lord did not give THEM a personal explanation, however, He did make sure the disciples had the right understanding. But let's move on.
You said much - again - as to my interpretation of Acts 1:6 & 7. But again, you gave little, as to your understanding of the conversation between the Lord and the disciples. You even implied it was a mystery and seem content with that response. If we treated every aspect of the Scriptures, this way, then one could have the Scriptures say anything they like. The Scriptures were not given to us to remain mysterious but to help us understand the Mind and Plan of God.
Perhaps the most telling thing you said, was in this paragraph, I quote: (Attention should be paid to the last seven words)
"The fact is in Acts 1:6-7, a question was asked and His answer was indirect, much like many of the other figurative speech He uses to explain things. He didn't say "yes", He didn't say "no", He stated that it wasn't for them to know the time or season of such things. That can be interpreted as a response that means "You're thinking about it the wrong way""
By your own words - you stated that it might be possible, that Christ did not or would not give unto His Disciples and soon to be Apostles and some writers of the New Testament books, the correct understanding but left them in the error of their thinking. God forbid!!!!!
It is very obvious, that you are avoiding a sound explanation of Acts 1:6 & 7 because 1.) You have no explanation, worth it's salt, to give, or 2.) You will not except the obvious truth because it would bring down your Eschatological beliefs.
In either case, further conversation, with you, would seem pointless.
In your argument - that Christ talked to His own in parables - that is not true. It is you that needs to go back and look at the example you gave in Mark 4: 10-14. It clearly states that Jesus Christ explained the parable to his own. Christ used parables when teaching in the presents of unsaved and religious Jews. His disciples were present and listened but Christ was not speaking directly for their benefit. Scripture says this, just before He began the parable:
Mark 4:1 And again he began to teach by the sea side. And there is gathered unto him a very great multitude, so that he entered into a boat, and sat in the sea; and all the multitude were by the sea on the land.
Mark 4:2 And he taught them many things in parables, and said unto them in his teaching,
The Lord did not give THEM a personal explanation, however, He did make sure the disciples had the right understanding. But let's move on.
You said much - again - as to my interpretation of Acts 1:6 & 7. But again, you gave little, as to your understanding of the conversation between the Lord and the disciples. You even implied it was a mystery and seem content with that response. If we treated every aspect of the Scriptures, this way, then one could have the Scriptures say anything they like. The Scriptures were not given to us to remain mysterious but to help us understand the Mind and Plan of God.
Perhaps the most telling thing you said, was in this paragraph, I quote: (Attention should be paid to the last seven words)
"The fact is in Acts 1:6-7, a question was asked and His answer was indirect, much like many of the other figurative speech He uses to explain things. He didn't say "yes", He didn't say "no", He stated that it wasn't for them to know the time or season of such things. That can be interpreted as a response that means "You're thinking about it the wrong way""
By your own words - you stated that it might be possible, that Christ did not or would not give unto His Disciples and soon to be Apostles and some writers of the New Testament books, the correct understanding but left them in the error of their thinking. God forbid!!!!!
It is very obvious, that you are avoiding a sound explanation of Acts 1:6 & 7 because 1.) You have no explanation, worth it's salt, to give, or 2.) You will not except the obvious truth because it would bring down your Eschatological beliefs.
In either case, further conversation, with you, would seem pointless.
You are so confused that now you are contradicting yourself. You previously told me that if they are sheep that they are already saved.
As I told you before, all sheep believe that there is a Spirit that is God, but many of them do not understand what Jesus accomplished for them on the cross, which is total redemption of their sins, therefore they are the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and you, also, fit that description.
As I told you before, all sheep believe that there is a Spirit that is God, but many of them do not understand what Jesus accomplished for them on the cross, which is total redemption of their sins, therefore they are the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and you, also, fit that description.