David's state in Acts 2

[AndrewMorgan]

One big issue in Christian theology is whether the "dead" are alive in a post-dead state or "sleeping", awaiting judgement.
Unless I'm misinterpreting the verse, Peter says in Acts 2 that David is dead and buried and "his tomb exists to this day". This seems to confirm that the latter situation is the case.
There are other verses in Scripture which seem to corroborate that position.
I'd be interested in others' opinions (preferably biblically-based) as to this issue.

 

[Jocund]

There are a few considerations. I'll shew you a mystery, that not all will sleep, but we will all be changed.

Lazarus was sleeping. Samuel seemingly wasn't. Some people enter death in a good state, others not. If we consider the appearance of Moses and Elias during the transfiguration to be literal, this would be another example of those being conscious after death.

There is a good case to be made that not everyone ends up in the same state after death. And more than that, it could be possible for a person to remain conscious for a short time and then enter sleep. Or be in sleep and later be interrupted (as may be the case with Samuel when the witch of endor summoned him).

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Thanks for your reply.
In the Lazarus account, I assume you're referring to the one whom Jesus resurrected in John 15. I assume he'd been sleeping as there's no indication he'd been brought back from Heaven or Hell.
As for Samuel and the witch of Endor - I'd previously thought about that. I haven't got a Bible with me, but the question is: - Did the witch really "summon up" Samuel or did she, like so many mediums today, merely claim to?
The Moses transfiguration account is perhaps open to interpretation. Was it really Moses or was it a vision, possibly to demonstrate Jesus' authority?
Then, there's 1Corinthians15, where Paul writes of the order of resurrection. He says "everyone in his own order. Christ the firstfruits - then everyone else at His 'parousia' - commonly rendered 'coming'". As almost everybody (with the exception of - eg - the Jehovah's Witnesses, who believe that He came back "invisibly" in 1914) believes Jesus has not yet returned, it seems nobody else will be resurrected until He comes.
No exception is stated, although I don't believe that in itself that nullifies the possibility that some could exist.
It's not completely sealed, but I tend to think the Bible supports the case that the dead are at present dead, but with possibly few exceptions for specific reasons that God deemed appropriate.
I've taken on board your points and maybe other input will shed light on the subject.

 

[Magenta]

In the Lazarus account, I assume you're referring to the one whom Jesus resurrected in John 15.

I think you mean John 11.

 

[Live4Him3]

Then, there's 1Corinthians15, where Paul writes of the order of resurrection. He says "everyone in his own order. Christ the firstfruits - then everyone else at His 'parousia' - commonly rendered 'coming'". As almost everybody (with the exception of - eg - the Jehovah's Witnesses, who believe that He came back "invisibly" in 1914) believes Jesus has not yet returned, it seems nobody else will be resurrected until He comes.

Although it's true that Christ is the only one to have been bodily resurrected unto eternal life, this does not necessarily mean that those who have died in Christ are not presently consciously alive in heaven..

For example, consider what Paul said about himself:

Philippians chapter 1

[21] For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
[22] But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
[23] For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
[24] Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Here, Paul not only spoke of dying as being "gain", but he also equated it with "being with Christ, which is far better" than remaining alive or abiding in the flesh.

Well, if he believed that he was going to "be with Christ" when he died, then shouldn't we ask ourselves where Christ presently is?

Christ is presently in heaven, and Paul certainly seemed to believe that that is where his spirit and soul were headed at death even though his body would lie in the grave while awaiting his bodily resurrection at Christ's second coming.

This same Paul also said the following:

II Corinthians chapter 5

[1] For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
[2] For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
[3] If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
[4] For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
[5] Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
[6] Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
[7] (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
[9] Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

As Christians, we are earnestly desiring our glorified bodies at Christ's second coming or "that mortality might be swallowed up of life". However, Paul again indicated here that when a Christian dies or becomes 'absent from the body" that they are "present with the Lord".

Again, where is the Lord presently?

Is he not in heaven?

Paul also said the following:

I Thessalonians chapter 4

[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Here, Paul instructed the saints at Thessalonica that he didn't want them to be ignorant concerning them which are asleep or concerning the dead saints in Christ.

Well, what did he want them to know?

One thing that he wanted them to know is that "them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him".

Again, where is Jesus coming or descending from?

Is he not coming and descending from heaven?

He most certainly is.

Well, seeing how he's coming and descending from heaven, and seeing how God will bring with Jesus them which sleep in Jesus, doesn't this indicate that he's bringing them FROM HEAVEN which is where they currently are?

It certainly seems so to me.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

I I think you're right - as I said - I don't have a Bible with me. I realise now it was at John 11:35, where it says "Jesus wept", presumably just before Lazarus' resurrection.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Although it's true that Christ is the only one to have been bodily resurrected unto eternal life, this does not necessarily mean that those who have died in Christ are not presently consciously alive in heaven..

For example, consider what Paul said about himself:

Philippians chapter 1

[21] For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
[22] But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
[23] For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
[24] Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Here, Paul not only spoke of dying as being "gain", but he also equated it with "being with Christ, which is far better" than remaining alive or abiding in the flesh.

Well, if he believed that he was going to "be with Christ" when he died, then shouldn't we ask ourselves where Christ presently is?

Christ is presently in heaven, and Paul certainly seemed to believe that that is where his spirit and soul were headed at death even though his body would lie in the grave while awaiting his bodily resurrection at Christ's second coming.

This same Paul also said the following:

II Corinthians chapter 5

[1] For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
[2] For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
[3] If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
[4] For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
[5] Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
[6] Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
[7] (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
[9] Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

As Christians, we are earnestly desiring our glorified bodies at Christ's second coming or "that mortality might be swallowed up of life". However, Paul again indicated here that when a Christian dies or becomes 'absent from the body" that they are "present with the Lord".

Again, where is the Lord presently?

Is he not in heaven?

Paul also said the following:

I Thessalonians chapter 4

[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Here, Paul instructed the saints at Thessalonica that he didn't want them to be ignorant concerning them which are asleep or concerning the dead saints in Christ.

Well, what did he want them to know?

One thing that he wanted them to know is that "them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him".

Again, where is Jesus coming or descending from?

Is he not coming and descending from heaven?

He most certainly is.

Well, seeing how he's coming and descending from heaven, and seeing how God will bring with Jesus them which sleep in Jesus, doesn't this indicate that he's bringing them FROM HEAVEN which is where they currently are?

It certainly seems so to me.

Thanks for responding.
There's much to consider in what you've said. I don't know if I'll be able to fully address it, at least in one go, but I'll try to make a start.
First, let's take Paul's desires.
I've heard both sides of the argument re. timing of events and both seem to carry some weight. I'm unsure as to what to believe re. these citings.
Paul spoke of his and his fellow Christians' desire to leave this live and be with the Lord. This may seem to be, and actually be, an account of an immediate transfer. That there would be no delay. However, I think there's a reasonable case for saying that that would not necessarily follow.

Let's consider this:- If a person dies in Christ and goes "to sleep", however long he sleeps, when he wakes up, it would be to him as if he'd just nodded off. He'd have left the trials of this world and gone to be with God. Maybe, Paul's words reflect a ceasing of dealing with fighting the fight and achieving rest, albeit maybe after an undetermined period of delay. I can well imagine such a longing in the situation of those people in the 1st Century.

I'll continue shortly.

 

[Live4Him3]

Let's consider this:- If a person dies in Christ and goes "to sleep", however long he sleeps, when he wakes up, it would be to him as if he'd just nodded off. He'd have left the trials of this world and gone to be with God. Maybe, Paul's words reflect a ceasing of dealing with fighting the fight and achieving rest, albeit maybe after an undetermined period of delay. I can well imagine such a longing in the situation of those people in the 1st Century.

This certainly doesn't sound realistic, and here is one reason why:

Revelation chapter 6

[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Here, we are seeing something that concerns martyred saints, and it transpires around "the altar" IN HEAVEN (Rev. 8:3, 5, 9:13, 14:18, 16:7).

Yes, they are crying out for vengeance "on them that dwell on the earth".

They're not only given white robes, but they're told that "that they should REST yet for a little season", and this "rest" is taking place IN HEAVEN.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Thanks for responding.
There's much to consider in what you've said. I don't know if I'll be able to fully address it, at least in one go, but I'll try to make a start.
First, let's take Paul's desires.
I've heard both sides of the argument re. timing of events and both seem to carry some weight. I'm unsure as to what to believe re. these citings.
Paul spoke of his and his fellow Christians' desire to leave this live and be with the Lord. This may seem to be, and actually be, an account of an immediate transfer. That there would be no delay. However, I think there's a reasonable case for saying that that would not necessarily follow.

Let's consider this:- If a person dies in Christ and goes "to sleep", however long he sleeps, when he wakes up, it would be to him as if he'd just nodded off. He'd have left the trials of this world and gone to be with God. Maybe, Paul's words reflect a ceasing of dealing with fighting the fight and achieving rest, albeit maybe after an undetermined period of delay. I can well imagine such a longing in the situation of those people in the 1st Century.

I'll continue shortly.

Another thing - you quote in 1Thess4:14 about sleeping in Christ, awaiting resurrection. I can't understand what that term would mean if their souls or beings were already in Heaven. My idea is that there wouldn't be much time for sleep!
I must admit I don't understand your last point about those who are resurrected "bringing God with them". Isn't that simply referring to the situation where Christ will return in the name and purpose of God and resurrect the dead?

 

[Live4Him3]

Another thing - you quote in 1Thess4:14 about sleeping in Christ, awaiting resurrection. I can't understand what that term would mean if their souls or beings were already in Heaven. My idea is that there wouldn't be much time for sleep!

I just explained that in my last response. You probably didn't see it yet because we were probably both typing out our responses at the same time.

I must admit I don't understand your last point about those who are resurrected "bringing God with them". Isn't that simply referring to the situation where Christ will return in the name and purpose of God and resurrect the dead?

I didn't say "bringing God with them".

I said that God will bring them, with the "them" being those who "sleep in Jesus" or the dead in Christ, with Jesus when he comes or descends from heaven. Well, if they're being brought with Jesus, then they're being brought from the place where Jesus is coming or descending from, and that place is heaven.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

This certainly doesn't sound realistic, and here is one reason why:

Revelation chapter 6

[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Here, we are seeing something that concerns martyred saints, and it transpires around "the altar" IN HEAVEN (Rev. 8:3, 5, 9:13, 14:18, 16:7).

Yes, they are crying out for vengeance "on them that dwell on the earth".

They're not only given white robes, but they're told that "that they should REST yet for a little season", and this "rest" is taking place IN HEAVEN.

A good point!
A quick warning for us both here. Even if we earnestly seek the truth, in or outside Scripture, we are not free of fallibility. Even reasonable extrapolation is potentially dangerous. I'm not saying that seems true here, but as a general rule it applies. Another thing which may or may not be relevant is that Scripture, especially Revelation can be metaphorical. You may well have reason to be convinced that the points I make are invalid - you may well know Revelation (and the Bible in general) better than me and I don't have a Bible with me at the moment, so my ideas are weak.
With that in mind, could it be that the account of "the souls crying out" are not literally doing so, but are acting as an indication of their implicit attitude - indicating the patience of God in temporarily holding back justice? That may well, justifiably, be considered a "long shot".
I have to go shortly, but I hope to further examine the subject in due course.
I'm unsure what the truth is re. this issue, but at the moment, I think the preponderance of Scripture tends to suggest the dead are at present dead.
Thank you for interacting.

 

[Live4Him3]

I'm unsure what the truth is re. this issue, but at the moment, I think the preponderance of Scripture tends to suggest the dead are at present dead.

Do you believe that Jesus, during the timeframe that his body was in the grave for three days and three nights, was "dead' in the manner that you've been describing here?

Be careful...

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Sorry for misquoting you.

 

[Live4Him3]

Sorry for misquoting you.

No worries, but I appreciate your civility.

I know my responses have been kind of blunt, but I don't mean for them to come across offensively.

I'm just juggling a few different things at the same time myself, and I'm a bit strapped for time.

Have a blessed day.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

I just explained that in my last response. You probably didn't see it yet because we were probably both typing out our responses at the same time.

I didn't say "bringing God with them".

I said that God will bring them, with the "them" being those who "sleep in Jesus" or the dead in Christ, with Jesus when he comes or descends from heaven. Well, if they're being brought with Jesus, then they're being brought from the place where Jesus is coming or descending from, and that place is heaven.

I take your point about "bringing with" implying it's from the same place, although I don't think it's strictly necessarily the case. In one case, you could say that through God, Christ and. men are being brought together to one place without being necessarily having been physically together previously. That may seem a "long shot" too.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Do you believe that Jesus, during the timeframe that his body was in the grave for three days and three nights, was "dead' in the manner that you've been describing here?

Be careful...

Throughout the decades, I've had many different ideas on this point, from many different denominations.
I think I can largely sum it up into 2 camps - those who believe Christ was in a state of effective non-existentce in His post-death state and those who believe He went to Hell in that period. I don't know of other realistic alternatives. I don't know, but I would tend to think the former is true.
I'm not sure what to make of "Be careful".

 

[Live4Him3]

Throughout the decades, I've had many different ideas on this point, from many different denominations.
I think I can largely sum it up into 2 camps - those who believe Christ was in a state of effective non-existentce in His post-death state and those who believe He went to Hell in that period. I don't know of other realistic alternatives. I don't know, but I would tend to think the former is true.
I'm not sure what to make of "Be careful".

By "be careful", I simply meant to "be careful" not to suggest that "Christ was in a state of effective non-existence in his post-death state".

To me, based upon my own understanding of who Christ is and what scripture has to say about him "post-death", that is heresy to the highest degree.

Anyhow, I don't want to come across as somebody who is trying to give you a hard time because that's truly not my intention.

I think that you asked a good question to start this thread, and I'm just trying to give you one side of the story for your consideration.

So far, you've admitted that your rebuttals to some of what I've said seem like "longshots", and, in my opinion, they're even longer shots than you might think. That said, I'm basing my opinion on other portions of scripture as well which haven't been addressed yet, so I certainly don't expect you to possibly jump on board with my position unless you've been thoroughly convinced by scripture to do so.

Again, I'm truly not trying to give you a hard time.

I hope that you understand that.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

One big issue in Christian theology is whether the "dead" are alive in a post-dead state or "sleeping", awaiting judgement.
Unless I'm misinterpreting the verse, Peter says in Acts 2 that David is dead and buried and "his tomb exists to this day". This seems to confirm that the latter situation is the case.
There are other verses in Scripture which seem to corroborate that position.
I'd be interested in others' opinions (preferably biblically-based) as to this issue.

if you look at what peters saying there he’s making the point when David was writing his psalms it wasnt about him or Solomon Oeter is making the same argument Paul makes consistently Jesus is the seed of Abraham, jesus is the son of David

Peter is making the point when David was writing “ the lord said to my lord sit at my right hand till I make thy enemies thy footstool “ David wasnt talking about himself being seated on the throne or being resurrected and raised into the heavens

Peter is making the point that David was a prophet foretelling about Christ like the others were all doing Peters intent and point is it’s Christ who was raised into heaven and Christ who sent the holy ghost and not David

Peter is making the point because when you read prophecy it seems as if God is making David the eternal king

The references to David’s throne

“and king Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD for ever.”
‭‭1 Kings‬ ‭2:45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:24‬ ‭

Peter is making the point that’s not about David it’s about Jesus son peters argument then David was a prophet foretelling the gospel

“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.( Jesus body was translated it didn’t decay )

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:30-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Peter isn’t making the argument of what happens when a person dies or what sleep Means ect he’s making the point it’s not David that’s ascended to the throne in heaven it’s Jesus

this doesn’t mean for instance moses and Elijah are dead and sleeping

“And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: who appeared in glory,

and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭9:30-31‬ ‭

they aren’t asleep or ingraves , thier bodies are dead and Buried but they are with Jesus another example

A man about to die

“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:43

why doesn’t he tell him some day you’ll be with me In paradise ? Or rest well until the end ? Sleep good I’ll come back for you ? Because when he died he went to be with Jesus

“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:6, 8‬ ‭

because we don’t have a perfect body like Jesus we leave ours behind he was translated in his body being without sin we however have corrupt bodies bound to death

we have to exit and leave our body behind and die in Christ and his body David’s body was as sinful as ours , and David’s savior has the same name as ours

 

[Webers.Home]

.
• Acts 2:30-31 . . And so, because he was a prophet, and knew that God had
sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants upon his throne,
he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was
neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay.

We know from Hellenistic culture that Hades is deep underground, i.e. the
netherworld where all the dead retire: the good dead and the bad dead
regardless of age, race, sex, religion and/or gender preference.

The passage above distinctly separates Hades from the final resting place of
one's remains. In other words: while Jesus' crucified dead body reposed in a
tomb up on the surface of the earth, the man himself was simultaneously
situated below the surface. (cf. Matt 12:40)

The Greek word translated "decay" in Acts 2:31 is equivalent to the Hebrew
word translated "corruption/pit" in Jonah 2:6. In other words; Jonah wasn't
alive the whole time while in the fish; at some point in his nautical
adventure, Jonah was deceased.
_

 

[AndrewMorgan]

By "be careful", I simply meant to "be careful" not to suggest that "Christ was in a state of effective non-existence in his post-death state".

To me, based upon my own understanding of who Christ is and what scripture has to say about him "post-death", that is heresy to the highest degree.

Anyhow, I don't want to come across as somebody who is trying to give you a hard time because that's truly not my intention.

I think that you asked a good question to start this thread, and I'm just trying to give you one side of the story for your consideration.

So far, you've admitted that your rebuttals to some of what I've said seem like "longshots", and, in my opinion, they're even longer shots than you might think. That said, I'm basing my opinion on other portions of scripture as well which haven't been addressed yet, so I certainly don't expect you to possibly jump on board with my position unless you've been thoroughly convinced by scripture to do so.

Again, I'm truly not trying to give you a hard time.

I hope that you understand that.

At no time did I think you were trying to give me a hard time.
As we're on this central point, where do you think Jesus was in the period post-death and pre-resurrection?