Former pentecostal

[kleronomos]

it sounds like you are saying God can heal but doesn't

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2 Corinthians 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

2 Corinthians 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

2 Corinthians 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

there are no errors in the Bible there are copies discrepancies

IN other words, it ain't Perfect. So how is "that perfect" that eliminates the need for spiritual gifts.

 

[Aussie52]

I spent 20 years in the Pentecostal Movement, 7 years as a pastor.
I left due to the charlatans in leadership.
I to believe the sign gifts ceased with the completion of the New Testament.
I admit that not all agree with this position, and I respect their right to that.
Peace
Jeff

 

[wattie]

it sounds like you are saying God can heal but doesn't

Whatever man.. if God can only use the gift of miracles to work a miracle... then that's really limiting God.

Forget about it uh

 

[Amanuensis]

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2 Corinthians 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

2 Corinthians 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

2 Corinthians 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

If you pay attention to the context of 2 Corinthians 11 -12 Paul uses the word infirmities to describe his sufferings under persecutions and hardships for the Gospel sake.

24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. 25Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. 28Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
30If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities

Now that was said before he uses the words again after mentioning the messenger of satan sent to buffet him.

Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

The plain reading in context points to Paul's ill treatment by others while fulfilling his calling to preach the Gospel

Therefore it is most likely that the messenger of satan, the thorn in his side (which was a term used in the OT for the enemies of Israel left in the land) was meant by Paul to refer to someone, an actual person, of those sent by the Sanhedrin to arrest him or cause the Jews to turn against him when he was having success in their synagogues.

Because we see this happening to him. Wherever he went as soon as things were going well here comes these Jews from Jerusalem sent by the leaders to tell the Synagogue leaders to reject Paul or they will lose their place and through their pressure he would get kicked out and the people try to stone him. This is the pattern and I think he was saying he asked for this messenger from satan (probably someone just like him before he was saved) sent by the Sanhedrin to leave him alone. Or something like that.

 

[Evmur]

".. why ask folks who have never experienced it?"
I did. The woman who 'spoke in tongues' didn't know ANYTHING about what was written, not even about speaking in tongues. But she was 'feeling all saved' because someone had convinced her that speaking in tongues was being saved.


"or else go by what the scripture says".
because somehow faith comes by hearing and HEARING by the words of God has been SKIPPED over and people have forgotten reading and comprehension and people are going straight to the gifts. Seems every thing about the church now a days is 'do for me'. Its supposed to be HOW CAN I SERVE? Not what can you do for me.


So what is written? Maybe this is where the problem is, FOR ME anyhow. I admit I am coming across as one sided but having never truly discussed it before with someone who DID KNOW, I would like to hear where the words of God speak to you on the subject.


Acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

that is the tongue of fire - the 'cloven tongue', I believe.


but for the word tongue in most of the Scripture it's a different word for language
1100. glóssa
Strong's Concordance
glóssa: the tongue, a language

Definition: the tongue, a language
Usage: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech).
HELPS Word-studies
1100 glṓssa – tongue, used of flowing speech; (figuratively) speaking, inspired by God, like the evidence of tongues-speaking supplied by the Lord in the book of Acts to demonstrate the arrival of the new age of the covenant (i.e. NT times).

[The normative experience of the 120 believers received "tongues as of fire" (Ac 2:3) and miraculously spoke in other actual languages, i.e. that they could not speak before (Ac 2:4f). This sign was repeated in Ac 10:46, 19:6 –
furnishing ample proof (three attestations) that the Lord had incorporated all believers into Christ's (mystical) body (1 Cor 12:13).]


Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues
(an actual language)


1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
(actual languages)


1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
(actual languages)


1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

If someone is speaking in FRENCH and no one understands FRENCH then the only one being spoken to is God as only He understands it also the Spirit understands, yet it remains a mystery to those who don't speak french.

mutter is to use words in order to declare one's mind and disclose one's thoughts; to speak


And those who are truly doing so are doing so by

1 Corinthians 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

1Corinthians 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

1Corinthians 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

1Corinthians 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

1Corinthians 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

1Corinthians 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

1 Corinthians 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

1329. dierméneuó ►
Strong's Concordance
dierméneuó: to explain thoroughly, by implication to translate

1329 diermēneúō (from 1223 /diá, "thoroughly across, to the other side," which intensifies 2059 /hermēneúō, "interpret") – properly, thoroughly interpret, accurately (fully) explain.


1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray however also with the mind I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

1 Corinthians 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

1 Corinthians 14:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.



1Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

1Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

IS THIS HOW THE CHURCH DOES IT? Do they have 2 or 3 who speak in actual languages of other nations and have one interpreter telling the congregation WHAT THEY SAID?

1Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

To cut to the chase

Have YOU spoken or prayed in tongues? have you ever interpreted a message given in tongues?

Are these shown in scripture as two of the gifts given to EACH one to profit withal?

When Paul preached in Galatia he was the only apostle they had encountered, after he left 10 more came in who said THEY were apostles ... even better ones than Paul because they came [they said] from James. Here's the point.

They ought to have stuck with Paul because when he preached they actually RECEIVED the salvation, the blessings, the Holy Spirit Paul announced to them. When these other "apostles" spoke, nothing happened, no blessings, no miracles. the Holy Ghost was not given,

Paul's message was all "do for me" these other "apostles" were all "serve" get circumcised obey the commandments of Moses.

The way to serve God is to RECEIVE from Him and then go tell about it. If you haven't received anything then all you got is dictionaries, commentaries, sermons and dissertations.

The KEY to all this is to match up what you receive and testify to with scripture.

You can find folks in America who have genuine tongues and interpretation.

 

[Evmur]

I must humbly admit that I may be mistaken about "that which is perfect."

I recently discovered another alternative view about when "Paul became
a cessationist" Before he even, By God's GRACE, finished penning "The
Complete Revelation Of The Mystery." Here ya go - What think ye?:

When Did the gift of tongues Cease? (I) [scroll to bottom of pg 18]
When Did the gift of tongues Cease? (II)

GRACE And Peace...

umm

I have had some really good discussions with MADianites over the years, I actually appreciate men like Stam.

I think if Paul had become a cessationist before he had finished penning the complete revelation it would have found it's way into the revelation.

It would have been a danger to his flock that the Lord had given him for them to continue to earnestly desire the higher gifts especially that they might prophesy if those things were no longer to be given.

 

[presidente]

So I decided that cessationist are right. The Bible is " that which is perfect" for when gifts will cease.

That is a poor interpretation rejected by many cessationists, who try to find some other means to argue for cessationism. Cessationists aren't consistent in how they get to their cessationism.

If you read the passage, your interpretation implies that Paul's speech, knowledge, and understanding was like a child in comparison to yours. If you have the Bible and you read it, and months or years later you go back to one of Paul's epistles and learn something you did not catch the first time, something Paul understood back then that you did not... then you have disprove your theory.

The idea that the Bible was written by men with kindergarten understanding of the gospel so that we can have adult understanding does not make much sense.

But I find that if I ask in prayer the one giving tongues is an evil spirit. You've got to be careful. Not every spirit is of God. Try the spirits.

This is a dangers position to announce. While a demon might be able to imitate the works of God to some degree, Jesus said, in Luke 11:13,
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your Children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him.

And in Matthew 12,
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Paul's instructions on speaking in tongues brought correction, but there was not even a hint that Christians needed to worry that it was evil. He was writing about gifts of the Spirit.

 

[kleronomos]

If you pay attention to the context of 2 Corinthians 11 -12 Paul uses the word infirmities to describe his sufferings under persecutions and hardships for the Gospel sake.

I went back again, to make sure I had paid attention to the context of what was written and what I was putting forth with my eye on the narrow path set before us, which to me means any time and every time it is at all possible, I stick to exactly what is written, not adding nor subtracting nor twisting anything I find.

While 'what is written' makes mention of the stuff you are saying is 'meant', it only does so upon completion of the thorn in the flesh. So, upon reconsideration, I will continue with what is written being EXACTLY what is meant. It doesn't come across as some figure of speech to me, not simile nor metaphor but as something 'in his flesh' to remind him in a continuous fashion, rather than the occasions he was delivered out of time and again

2 Cor 12:6 GREEK

If for I should desire to boast not I will be a fool
truth for I will be speaking
I refrain however, lest anyone to me should credit more than what he sees in me
or hears anyone of me
7 and the surpassingness of the revelations

Therefore, that not I should become conceited,
was given to me a thorn in flesh
a messenger of Satan
that me he might buffet
so that not I should become conceited

8 For this, three times the Lord I begged that it might depart from me

9 And He said to me, Suffices you the grace of Me, the for power in weakness is perfected
Most gladly therefore rather will I boast in the weaknesses of me so that may rest upon me the power of Christ

10 Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses,

(that being the personal body ones,

followed by the outside personal attacks)

in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, and difficulties for Christ
when for I might be weak
then strong I am


So he starts out with 'the thorn aka weaknesses' and continues on with the rest of things that happen. A really good example set forth for what being a Christian, a soldier of Christ, a servant of God might truly feel like. I hope you can now see I did pay attention previous to posting


10 Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships in persecutions and difficulties for Christ when for I might be weak then strong I am

11 I have become a fool
you me compelled
I for ought by you to have been commended in no way
for was I inferior to those most eminent apostles though even nothing I am

12 The indeed signs of the apostle were performed among you in all perseverance in signs both and wonders and miracles

13 in what for is it that you were inferior beyond the rest [of the] churches, if not that myself I not did burden you? Forgive me the wrong this


At least that is how I read it. Thank you for sharing your views, though I can not agree. If I were to speculate however, I would stand with those who think it was his eyesight that never came back after the road event.

Galatians 6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

 

[kleronomos]

When Paul spoke on speaking in tongues, did he ever reference 'the cloven tongues'/ the tongues of fire? or were his references always to unknown tongues of the world?

 

[kleronomos]

To cut to the chase

Have YOU spoken or prayed in tongues? have you ever interpreted a message given in tongues?

Are these shown in scripture as two of the gifts given to EACH one to profit withal?

When Paul preached in Galatia he was the only apostle they had encountered, after he left 10 more came in who said THEY were apostles ... even better ones than Paul because they came [they said] from James. Here's the point.

They ought to have stuck with Paul because when he preached they actually RECEIVED the salvation, the blessings, the Holy Spirit Paul announced to them. When these other "apostles" spoke, nothing happened, no blessings, no miracles. the Holy Ghost was not given,

Paul's message was all "do for me" these other "apostles" were all "serve" get circumcised obey the commandments of Moses.

The way to serve God is to RECEIVE from Him and then go tell about it. If you haven't received anything then all you got is dictionaries, commentaries, sermons and dissertations.

The KEY to all this is to match up what you receive and testify to with scripture.

You can find folks in America who have genuine tongues and interpretation.

The gift of tongues is completely missing from my person. I have tried to learn another language more than a few times and more than a few ways and it is quite clear that I can not speak in any tongue, don't even do that well with this one. So the answer is NO, I have not. Interpret? a tiny bit.

Absolutely they are two of the gifts given to profit all.


My problem isn't with tongues it with people claiming to be speaking in A NON TONGUE, then claiming it is of GOD and giving a message that isn't found in the BIBLE. We have been told 'HE has foretold us ALL things', so everything everyone receives should be to EDIFY those things we have been given.

NEW REVELATIONS will come out but even all new 'revelations' will be found in the words of God, they just haven't been seen yet. Rest assured, the words in the Book of Daniel have not and never will change, BUT soon WHAT no other generation ever could see in them, will be OPENED up to us and we will see what they could not, having remained 'closed till the end'.

So again, when the 'churches' who claim to 'speak in tongues' do so, it it happening in places that is does so as written or is 'man' just allowing it to be done 'however' they want. We may not be UNDER the law for Salvation, but GOD is most specific in what is acceptable and what isn't. Just look at Cain and Able. One did it the way they wanted the other did it Gods way. GOD had respect unto ONE of them.

It is a NARROW PATH and everyone who thinks a little step off of it doesn't matter, needs to THINK AGAIN because it does, as we can clearly see by how comfortable 'THE CHURCH' has become in 'what he really meant and what ISN'T written at all'. Tongues being one of them.

 

[CS1]

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2 Corinthians 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

2 Corinthians 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

2 Corinthians 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

What Paul wanted was for the Persecution to stop He was not sick. He had no issues physically. In all things, we are to trust God.
And you cherry-picked the chapter


12 It is [a] doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man (this is Paul) in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man (this is Paul) —whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities(weakness of the body). 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.

For this, Paul said a messenger of Satan was sent to keep him humble verse 7, and Because this was done, Paul asked The Lord to remove it, Which the Lord did not do but gave Paul strength to endure. How do we know this?

Well we must read on :

Verse 10

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.


Also, Paul did not, from this time to his execution, would not be free from the above list.

 

[CS1]

I spent 20 years in the Pentecostal Movement, 7 years as a pastor.
I left due to the charlatans in leadership.
I to believe the sign gifts ceased with the completion of the New Testament.
I admit that not all agree with this position, and I respect their right to that.
Peace
Jeff

Well, I'm sorry you were part of the leadership that was to you, Charlatans. You are well to believe whatever you like.
Just prove it in the word of God, or that makes you the same as those you left .

 

[CS1]

Whatever man.. if God can only use the gift of miracles to work a miracle... then that's really limiting God.

Forget about it uh

FYI Jesus said who is God These signs shall follow them that Believe. Jesus did not say nor anywhere in the word of God does it say Once the canon has been complete Gifts of the Holy Spirit will cease". Just not there

 

[Magenta]

What Paul wanted was for the Persecution to stop He was not sick. He had no issues physically. ...

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions,
in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

If Paul had no physical issues, why does he speak of infirmities?

Or, how could he take pleasure in them if they were non-existent?

 

[CS1]

If Paul had no physical issues, why does he speak of infirmities?

good question. His physical issues were from being beaten, persecuted, and imprisoned.

Paul wrote many of his Epistles in Prison as I know you know this That why they are known as the Prison Epistles.

The Greek translation for infirmities in the text means and chapter of 1cor 12 "want of strength, weakness, " or want of strength and capacity requisite "peaceful life."

 

[Evmur]

The gift of tongues is completely missing from my person. I have tried to learn another language more than a few times and more than a few ways and it is quite clear that I can not speak in any tongue, don't even do that well with this one. So the answer is NO, I have not. Interpret? a tiny bit.

Absolutely they are two of the gifts given to profit all.


My problem isn't with tongues it with people claiming to be speaking in A NON TONGUE, then claiming it is of GOD and giving a message that isn't found in the BIBLE. We have been told 'HE has foretold us ALL things', so everything everyone receives should be to EDIFY those things we have been given.

NEW REVELATIONS will come out but even all new 'revelations' will be found in the words of God, they just haven't been seen yet. Rest assured, the words in the Book of Daniel have not and never will change, BUT soon WHAT no other generation ever could see in them, will be OPENED up to us and we will see what they could not, having remained 'closed till the end'.

So again, when the 'churches' who claim to 'speak in tongues' do so, it it happening in places that is does so as written or is 'man' just allowing it to be done 'however' they want. We may not be UNDER the law for Salvation, but GOD is most specific in what is acceptable and what isn't. Just look at Cain and Able. One did it the way they wanted the other did it Gods way. GOD had respect unto ONE of them.

It is a NARROW PATH and everyone who thinks a little step off of it doesn't matter, needs to THINK AGAIN because it does, as we can clearly see by how comfortable 'THE CHURCH' has become in 'what he really meant and what ISN'T written at all'. Tongues being one of them.

But tongues ARE written in the bible and God said I wish that all My people did speak with them.

I don't think everyone stood like statues singing from a hymnal is quite what we see as worship in the bible yet that is how most churches do.

If you truly desire a thing from God and if it is according to His word you'll get it.

 

[Amanuensis]

I went back again, to make sure I had paid attention to the context of what was written and what I was putting forth with my eye on the narrow path set before us, which to me means any time and every time it is at all possible, I stick to exactly what is written, not adding nor subtracting nor twisting anything I find.

While 'what is written' makes mention of the stuff you are saying is 'meant', it only does so upon completion of the thorn in the flesh. So, upon reconsideration, I will continue with what is written being EXACTLY what is meant. It doesn't come across as some figure of speech to me, not simile nor metaphor but as something 'in his flesh' to remind him in a continuous fashion, rather than the occasions he was delivered out of time and again

2 Cor 12:6 GREEK

If for I should desire to boast not I will be a fool
truth for I will be speaking
I refrain however, lest anyone to me should credit more than what he sees in me
or hears anyone of me
7 and the surpassingness of the revelations

Therefore, that not I should become conceited,
was given to me a thorn in flesh
a messenger of Satan
that me he might buffet
so that not I should become conceited

8 For this, three times the Lord I begged that it might depart from me

9 And He said to me, Suffices you the grace of Me, the for power in weakness is perfected
Most gladly therefore rather will I boast in the weaknesses of me so that may rest upon me the power of Christ

10 Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses,

(that being the personal body ones,

followed by the outside personal attacks)

in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, and difficulties for Christ
when for I might be weak
then strong I am


So he starts out with 'the thorn aka weaknesses' and continues on with the rest of things that happen. A really good example set forth for what being a Christian, a soldier of Christ, a servant of God might truly feel like. I hope you can now see I did pay attention previous to posting


10 Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships in persecutions and difficulties for Christ when for I might be weak then strong I am

11 I have become a fool
you me compelled
I for ought by you to have been commended in no way
for was I inferior to those most eminent apostles though even nothing I am

12 The indeed signs of the apostle were performed among you in all perseverance in signs both and wonders and miracles

13 in what for is it that you were inferior beyond the rest [of the] churches, if not that myself I not did burden you? Forgive me the wrong this


At least that is how I read it. Thank you for sharing your views, though I can not agree. If I were to speculate however, I would stand with those who think it was his eyesight that never came back after the road event.

Galatians 6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

If we look at how "Thorn in the side" was used in the OT we discover it was always referring to people.

Paul being so verbose with OT references makes me believe he was using that phrase in the OT manner in which his readers would have been familiar. It would be calling these people enemies of God. Equivalent to those enemies they were supposed to destroy when they went into the Promised land.

Those left in the land that they were supposed to destroy would be a "thorn in their side."

Therefore using this phrase would make the original readers familiar with the history of Israel think not only of people but specifically people devoted to destruction, and if these were Jews sent by the Sanhedrin it is quite a declaration, calling these who think they are doing God a service equivalent to those enemies of Israel so despised in their history.

Judges 2:3
Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be [as thorns] in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you

Joshua 23:13
Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out [any of] these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides,,,,
Numbers 33:55
But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them [shall be] ... thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

It is not logical to think that Paul would be referring to something like an illness as a "thorn in his side" when he knew how familiar these passages were to his readers and how it would make them think of these verses. If it were people he was talking about they would get it and get it good. "Wow. Paul just equated these messengers from the Jerusalem Sandhedrin with the most despised enemies of Israel in our history."

As to Gal 6:11 there is nothing in that to suggest any thorn in the flesh related to his eyesight. Most people need to write larger letters after 50. I can't read ingredients anymore. I certainly cannot write as small as I once did. Yet I don't have puss leaking from my eyes, or other such nonsense people have made up out of thin air about Paul.

When he said they would pluck out their own eyes for him I think that was an idiom or saying that can be found in other writings but I haven't researched it deeply yet. It's just not something I have gotten around to and I don't believe Paul's thorn in the flesh was anything other than the enemies of Israel he speaks of knowing that the readers would think of that OT usage.

 

[mustaphadrink]

I'm not saying people can't be healed. The Bible is perfect. Now we know how to pray. The elders lay hands on people. There are also miracles through the bible's teachings. It's not over it's just not needed to get messages anymore. Or pray in tongues. We have the Bible. Now we know fully.

So you know everything there is to know about the supernatural?

 

[wattie]

FYI Jesus said who is God These signs shall follow them that Believe. Jesus did not say nor anywhere in the word of God does it say Once the canon has been complete Gifts of the Holy Spirit will cease". Just not there

But Jesus did inspire Paul, who wrote about the purpose of tongues, and the credentials of an apostle and when the sign gifts would cease.

The inspiration Paul got was from Jesus. And yes He is fully God.. I agree.

When we look at Jesus' words.. they aren't just what He said in person to people He met in person... but also the entire inspiration of the Bible. I'm sure you know this already.. so I don't quite get what you mean here.. unless you are saying the point of ceasing Paul is talking about is not the completed canon.. then I understand what you mean.