And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
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This statement is just an opinion. It is NOT a fact. There is NO proof that souls are mortal.
Since the Bible tells us that 2 humans will be IN the LOF for 1,000 years before being joined by the devil, and then THEY (all 3, beast, FP and the devil) will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, it's really clear that souls ARE immortal.
To claim otherwise is to ignore the Bible.
This is an example of refusal to accept teaching. He gives the gift of eternal life to those who believe (John 5:24, 1 John 5:11, 13, 20).
The obvious conclusion is that unbelievers, who have never believed, do NOT have eternal life. They do not have God's life.
And this has been explained to this poster over and over and over. But he presists in the nonsense of calling an immortal soul that will be tormented forever "eternal life". He has no excuse for such an absurdity.
What doesn't make sense is the failure to simply understand that a soul being tormented forever doesn't have eternal life.
Words mean things. And when the Bible speaks of "eternal life" it ALWAYS is in reference to God's life, and the gift that God gives to believers only.
Since the Bible tells us that 2 humans will be IN the LOF for 1,000 years before being joined by the devil, and then THEY (all 3, beast, FP and the devil) will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, it's really clear that souls ARE immortal.
To claim otherwise is to ignore the Bible.
This is an example of refusal to accept teaching. He gives the gift of eternal life to those who believe (John 5:24, 1 John 5:11, 13, 20).
The obvious conclusion is that unbelievers, who have never believed, do NOT have eternal life. They do not have God's life.
And this has been explained to this poster over and over and over. But he presists in the nonsense of calling an immortal soul that will be tormented forever "eternal life". He has no excuse for such an absurdity.
What doesn't make sense is the failure to simply understand that a soul being tormented forever doesn't have eternal life.
Words mean things. And when the Bible speaks of "eternal life" it ALWAYS is in reference to God's life, and the gift that God gives to believers only.
The punishment is ETERNAL.
Matt 25:46 - “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
"punishment"
kolasis: correction
Original Word: κόλασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kolasis
Phonetic Spelling: (kol'-as-is)
Definition: correction
Usage: chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2851 kólasis (from kolaphos, "a buffeting, a blow") – properly, punishment that "fits" (matches) the one punished (R. Trench); torment from living in the dread of upcoming judgment from shirkingone's duty (cf. WS at 1 Jn 4:18).
Absolutely DOES fit Rev 20:10.
A dead horse will feel nothing. That's what YOU want for unbelievers. To feel nothing. But we're not talking about lpunishing a body for ever, but rather, the soul. There is no comparison between a dead horse and a conscious soul.
Scroll your eyeballs upward and read what the Greek lexicon says about the word translated "punishment" in Matt 25:46.
You have no idea or clue what you are talking about. We know NOTHING about the make up of souls, etc.
That is just a smug opinion. Without any facts.
Said the poster who can't prove anything he claims.
Wrong. That would take a verse that mentions "eternal death". Where is that verse? It doesn't exist.
It has already been proven with Rev 20:10.
The "second death" can only refer to the resurrected body of the unbeliever. But the "person" continues to experience torment forever.
That is a fact. But you aren't interested in facts since your mind has already been made up.
Matt 25:46 - “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
"punishment"
kolasis: correction
Original Word: κόλασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kolasis
Phonetic Spelling: (kol'-as-is)
Definition: correction
Usage: chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2851 kólasis (from kolaphos, "a buffeting, a blow") – properly, punishment that "fits" (matches) the one punished (R. Trench); torment from living in the dread of upcoming judgment from shirkingone's duty (cf. WS at 1 Jn 4:18).
Absolutely DOES fit Rev 20:10.
A dead horse will feel nothing. That's what YOU want for unbelievers. To feel nothing. But we're not talking about lpunishing a body for ever, but rather, the soul. There is no comparison between a dead horse and a conscious soul.
Scroll your eyeballs upward and read what the Greek lexicon says about the word translated "punishment" in Matt 25:46.
You have no idea or clue what you are talking about. We know NOTHING about the make up of souls, etc.
That is just a smug opinion. Without any facts.
Said the poster who can't prove anything he claims.
Wrong. That would take a verse that mentions "eternal death". Where is that verse? It doesn't exist.
It has already been proven with Rev 20:10.
The "second death" can only refer to the resurrected body of the unbeliever. But the "person" continues to experience torment forever.
That is a fact. But you aren't interested in facts since your mind has already been made up.
Wait a sec. Where do you get "death is eternal".
ALL human beings will die physically, and NONE of all that death is "eternal", since there will be a resurrection of both believer and unbeliever. So you just shot yourself in the foot.
The Bible is very clear about the LOF. Those who will be cast into it, both human unbelievers and all fallen angels, will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. This is the clearest statement about ECT in the Bible
And yet you don't like it and have rejected the truth of it.
ALL human beings will die physically, and NONE of all that death is "eternal", since there will be a resurrection of both believer and unbeliever. So you just shot yourself in the foot.
The Bible is very clear about the LOF. Those who will be cast into it, both human unbelievers and all fallen angels, will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. This is the clearest statement about ECT in the Bible
And yet you don't like it and have rejected the truth of it.
Really? Is that really how you think a person gets eternal life?? You clearly don't know the Bible then.
Eternal life is given to those who believe in Christ. Faith in Christ. Has NOTHING to do with being righteous. That's what the Pharisees thought. They thought they were keeping the Law and would earn eternal life by what they did.
And, boy, were they wrong.
Where does "punishment" mean death? You've never proven your frequent claim.
To be punished eternally, means to experience the punishment for ever and ever.
Exactly what Rev 20:10 SAYS plainly.
Solid Bible.
Eternal life is given to those who believe in Christ. Faith in Christ. Has NOTHING to do with being righteous. That's what the Pharisees thought. They thought they were keeping the Law and would earn eternal life by what they did.
And, boy, were they wrong.
Where does "punishment" mean death? You've never proven your frequent claim.
To be punished eternally, means to experience the punishment for ever and ever.
Exactly what Rev 20:10 SAYS plainly.
Solid Bible.
Enough already. Since the punishment IS eternal, it MUST BE felt eternally. No other option.
True, and doesn't support your claim.
Again, you just refuse to understand. What is eternal is the punishment. The death will be probably fairly quick. You don't want to believe that the resurrected body is what dies. And only the body. But the punishment lasts for eternity. That means experienced.
A soul that has ceased to exist CANNOT by definition experience anything. So you are barking up the wrong tree.
Also solid reality is what the Bible SAYS about those who will be cast into the LOF. Torment for ever and ever.
How can you torment someone who doesn't exist? And of course you have no answer for that.
True, and doesn't support your claim.
Again, you just refuse to understand. What is eternal is the punishment. The death will be probably fairly quick. You don't want to believe that the resurrected body is what dies. And only the body. But the punishment lasts for eternity. That means experienced.
A soul that has ceased to exist CANNOT by definition experience anything. So you are barking up the wrong tree.
Also solid reality is what the Bible SAYS about those who will be cast into the LOF. Torment for ever and ever.
How can you torment someone who doesn't exist? And of course you have no answer for that.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note that this does not say “eternal conscious torment.” Since the Bible is in total harmony, the eternal punishment is death.
Romans 6:23 is along the same lines as Matthew 25:46. The righteous get eternal life and the unrighteous don’t get eternal life; the unrighteous get death.
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note that this does not say “eternal conscious torment.” Since the Bible is in total harmony, the eternal punishment is death.
Romans 6:23 is along the same lines as Matthew 25:46. The righteous get eternal life and the unrighteous don’t get eternal life; the unrighteous get death.
The "death" mentioned in this verse has already occurred for everyone. All are born spiritually dead.
Totally irrelevant. The verse isn't even about the LOF.
No, you are just twisting verses around to fit into your own opinions.
No, Matt 25:46 doesn't even mention death. It SAYS and very plainly, eternal punishment.
For punishment, which is experienced, to be eternal, the soul must continue to exist.
You can keep making your bad choices and call it "eternal life" all you want, but all that will get you is laughs.
Everyone else knows that God is eternal life and He gives His life to believers only.
Everyone who will be cast into the LOF will certainly WISH they didn't exist. But they WILL BE tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The wording of Rev 20:10 is so clear and plain that it simply amazes me that Christians just won't accept the statement, and have to twist the meaning of words around, like you just did with Matt 25:46.
Matt 25:46 is about punishment, which is experienced. I'll bet if you ever received a spanking as punishment, you wished you weren't in the same room as your Dad. ie, you wished you didn't exist at that point.
If you didn't exist, you couldn't be punished.
And you have NEVER explained how punishment can be inflicted (feelings) on those who don't exist.
Totally irrelevant. The verse isn't even about the LOF.
No, you are just twisting verses around to fit into your own opinions.
No, Matt 25:46 doesn't even mention death. It SAYS and very plainly, eternal punishment.
For punishment, which is experienced, to be eternal, the soul must continue to exist.
You can keep making your bad choices and call it "eternal life" all you want, but all that will get you is laughs.
Everyone else knows that God is eternal life and He gives His life to believers only.
Everyone who will be cast into the LOF will certainly WISH they didn't exist. But they WILL BE tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The wording of Rev 20:10 is so clear and plain that it simply amazes me that Christians just won't accept the statement, and have to twist the meaning of words around, like you just did with Matt 25:46.
Matt 25:46 is about punishment, which is experienced. I'll bet if you ever received a spanking as punishment, you wished you weren't in the same room as your Dad. ie, you wished you didn't exist at that point.
If you didn't exist, you couldn't be punished.
And you have NEVER explained how punishment can be inflicted (feelings) on those who don't exist.
Why do you continue to resist the clear words throughout the Bible about the LOF being an "eternal punishment".
You cannot prove that all punishment is death, which you would need to do to prove your thesis.
Yes, the resurrected bodies of unbelievers WILL most certainly die in the LOF. So your initial comment covers that perfectly.
What you cannot support is that the soul will cease to exist.
btw, again, "death" never means "cease to exist". I've been to too many funerals and have SEEN the bodies of people I knew to know that death does NOT mean "cease to exist".
When the body dies, it does NOT "cease to exist". It does, however, slowly decay over a very long period of time.
Your annihilationist view aligns with atheists. So quit slinging labels around, ok?
ECT is taught clearly in the Bible. You've seen the verses. You just don't want to accept them.
You cannot prove that all punishment is death, which you would need to do to prove your thesis.
Yes, the resurrected bodies of unbelievers WILL most certainly die in the LOF. So your initial comment covers that perfectly.
What you cannot support is that the soul will cease to exist.
btw, again, "death" never means "cease to exist". I've been to too many funerals and have SEEN the bodies of people I knew to know that death does NOT mean "cease to exist".
When the body dies, it does NOT "cease to exist". It does, however, slowly decay over a very long period of time.
Your annihilationist view aligns with atheists. So quit slinging labels around, ok?
ECT is taught clearly in the Bible. You've seen the verses. You just don't want to accept them.
I am not sure just who to direct this post to So I am just going to leave it open.
What happens when you die?
Luke 16 The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus 19-31 if you do not know it please read it. We have 2 people here The Rich Man with his fine house all his money and the trimmings to go with it. Lazarus is a poor beggar. Full of sores he may have been sick I do not know and the bible doe not say. All he wanted from the rich man was to treated like his dogs; given scraps from the table. The rich man could not be bothered to even have a servant go out and help Lazarus. They both die, they both end up in spirit bodies. Lazarus on the right side of the gulf with Abraham and the rich man on the wrong side of the gulf.
Stop and thank for a second about this verse. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. If the rich man was on fire burning from head to toe just why would he ask for Lazarus to dip his finger in the water, I would thank that he would want a whole bucket brigade of water. I am not sure just what this word flame means in the Greek it is # 5395 it is used 6 times in the N.T. 3 are in Revelation; Means flash or flame, a blaze. Question is; Which is the rich man in? He can see, he can talk and from the rest of the verses he can hear. Which of the 3 types is it? I am leaning towards flash or flame. I am not sure about tormented is he on a rack being pulled apart hanging over a flame? The definition for tormented here is only used twice in the bible both time here in verses 25&26. It is used only 6 more times in the N.T. #3600 grief or sorrow. Thank You Jesus!!! I just had a thought pop into my head. Where is Lazarus? on the right side of the gulf, what kind of water would he have had? The living water. I would bet a spirit body will nor even need regular water. The rich man was wanting Lazarus to give him the living water so he could cross the gulf. The rich man gets told no water then he ask for someone to go back and and help his family and Abraham tells they have Moses and the prophets.
1st Peter 3
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Where was Jesus during the time people thank He was in the tomb ? Part of that time He was preaching to the souls in prison so that they would have a chance to chose Him over Satan. They were not burning and screaming . . .
If you were in heave and you could look and see or hear a loved on screaming burning day and night would that be heaven? No it would be hell also.
What happens when you die?
Luke 16 The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus 19-31 if you do not know it please read it. We have 2 people here The Rich Man with his fine house all his money and the trimmings to go with it. Lazarus is a poor beggar. Full of sores he may have been sick I do not know and the bible doe not say. All he wanted from the rich man was to treated like his dogs; given scraps from the table. The rich man could not be bothered to even have a servant go out and help Lazarus. They both die, they both end up in spirit bodies. Lazarus on the right side of the gulf with Abraham and the rich man on the wrong side of the gulf.
Stop and thank for a second about this verse. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. If the rich man was on fire burning from head to toe just why would he ask for Lazarus to dip his finger in the water, I would thank that he would want a whole bucket brigade of water. I am not sure just what this word flame means in the Greek it is # 5395 it is used 6 times in the N.T. 3 are in Revelation; Means flash or flame, a blaze. Question is; Which is the rich man in? He can see, he can talk and from the rest of the verses he can hear. Which of the 3 types is it? I am leaning towards flash or flame. I am not sure about tormented is he on a rack being pulled apart hanging over a flame? The definition for tormented here is only used twice in the bible both time here in verses 25&26. It is used only 6 more times in the N.T. #3600 grief or sorrow. Thank You Jesus!!! I just had a thought pop into my head. Where is Lazarus? on the right side of the gulf, what kind of water would he have had? The living water. I would bet a spirit body will nor even need regular water. The rich man was wanting Lazarus to give him the living water so he could cross the gulf. The rich man gets told no water then he ask for someone to go back and and help his family and Abraham tells they have Moses and the prophets.
1st Peter 3
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Where was Jesus during the time people thank He was in the tomb ? Part of that time He was preaching to the souls in prison so that they would have a chance to chose Him over Satan. They were not burning and screaming . . .
If you were in heave and you could look and see or hear a loved on screaming burning day and night would that be heaven? No it would be hell also.
That is correct. Instead, the Bible clearly says those who will be cast into the LOF will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
I think your misunderstanding has to do with the gift of eternal life. It seems you think that includes the soul, when there are no verses that even address that. And the whole point of resurrection deals with bodies.
I think your misunderstanding has to do with the gift of eternal life. It seems you think that includes the soul, when there are no verses that even address that. And the whole point of resurrection deals with bodies.
No, that text is NOT a parable. In all of Jesus' parables He never used proper names, much less actual people, like Abraham. Scholars believe that Jesus was talking about 2 people that were known in the area He was teaching. So the poor man Lazarus was known, as well as the rich man. Jesus was describing what happens when people die, a believer in Messiah and a rich man who was not a believer.
The believer went to Paradise, which is also called "Abraham's bosom" and actually was by Abraham's side, as we see in the story. The rich man went to "torments", which was described by Jesus as being a different compartment or area. Interestingly, both men could see each other but could not travel between the 2 places.
If this isn't a real account of where the dead went after death in the OT, then what in the world was Jesus doing giving a fantasy story???
Yes and no. Yes, Jesus did go to Hades and did preach to the spirits in prison. But we don't know what He told them, and there is no evidence anywhere in the Bible about any second chances after physical death. If there were, the rich man in Luke 16 wouldn't have worried about his 5 brothers.
And we have this important verse: Heb 9:27 - Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
There are no second chances. Once death, then the judgment. For all humans. Believers to the Bema and unbelievers to the GWT.
Both judgments will be on works or deeds. But neither to determine ultimate fate. That was determined during their lifetime.
On the basis of believing in Christ for salvation, the believer will spend eternity with God. The Bema, or Judgement Seat of Christ, per 2 Cor 5:10, the judgment will determine rewards.
For all unbelievers, their judgment will also be on the basis of what they did on earth. And Jesus taught clearly that 'on that day', it will be "more tolerable" for some than for others.
Of course no believer will be able to hear anyone in the LOF, or even Hades.
The believer went to Paradise, which is also called "Abraham's bosom" and actually was by Abraham's side, as we see in the story. The rich man went to "torments", which was described by Jesus as being a different compartment or area. Interestingly, both men could see each other but could not travel between the 2 places.
If this isn't a real account of where the dead went after death in the OT, then what in the world was Jesus doing giving a fantasy story???
Yes and no. Yes, Jesus did go to Hades and did preach to the spirits in prison. But we don't know what He told them, and there is no evidence anywhere in the Bible about any second chances after physical death. If there were, the rich man in Luke 16 wouldn't have worried about his 5 brothers.
And we have this important verse: Heb 9:27 - Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
There are no second chances. Once death, then the judgment. For all humans. Believers to the Bema and unbelievers to the GWT.
Both judgments will be on works or deeds. But neither to determine ultimate fate. That was determined during their lifetime.
On the basis of believing in Christ for salvation, the believer will spend eternity with God. The Bema, or Judgement Seat of Christ, per 2 Cor 5:10, the judgment will determine rewards.
For all unbelievers, their judgment will also be on the basis of what they did on earth. And Jesus taught clearly that 'on that day', it will be "more tolerable" for some than for others.
Of course no believer will be able to hear anyone in the LOF, or even Hades.
Yes those are many great points about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. We must also note that a mere drop of literal water being transported through literal flames would either evaporate quickly or be very hot by the time the rich man tried to drink it.
Also note, how was the rich man able to look across a gulf and single out who Abraham was if he didn’t even know what Abraham looked like?
Light a candle and try to look past the flame. Even a single flame on a wick is enough to completely or partially obscure the background. Now, what if the rich man was engulfed in flames? He’d be blinded. There’d no looking across a gulf to single out Abraham.
There’s also the matter of speaking clearly while allegedly engulfed in flames; that isn’t possible. No weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth going on. Never mind that there would have undoubtedly been other people crying out with a loud voice. The sound would probably be like a roaring crowd.
Furthermore, Abraham explained the judgements against the rich man and Lazarus. Abraham said the reason the rich man was in torment was because he had good things in life and Lazarus in comfort for having evil things in life. These aren’t literal reasons for why anyone in the Old Testament or New Testament was ever lost.
That’s not all. Abraham said that others wouldn’t be persuaded by someone who raised from the dead. A very curious statement, if literal, since Jesus rising from the dead is something God wants us to be persuaded by.
So in summary, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not literal. Like all other parables, it’s meant to convey symbolism and spiritual insight into things Jesus has first-hand knowledge about.
The water being the living water makes a lot of sense to me. That’s clearly what the rich man wanted.
Also note, how was the rich man able to look across a gulf and single out who Abraham was if he didn’t even know what Abraham looked like?
Light a candle and try to look past the flame. Even a single flame on a wick is enough to completely or partially obscure the background. Now, what if the rich man was engulfed in flames? He’d be blinded. There’d no looking across a gulf to single out Abraham.
There’s also the matter of speaking clearly while allegedly engulfed in flames; that isn’t possible. No weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth going on. Never mind that there would have undoubtedly been other people crying out with a loud voice. The sound would probably be like a roaring crowd.
Furthermore, Abraham explained the judgements against the rich man and Lazarus. Abraham said the reason the rich man was in torment was because he had good things in life and Lazarus in comfort for having evil things in life. These aren’t literal reasons for why anyone in the Old Testament or New Testament was ever lost.
That’s not all. Abraham said that others wouldn’t be persuaded by someone who raised from the dead. A very curious statement, if literal, since Jesus rising from the dead is something God wants us to be persuaded by.
So in summary, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not literal. Like all other parables, it’s meant to convey symbolism and spiritual insight into things Jesus has first-hand knowledge about.
The water being the living water makes a lot of sense to me. That’s clearly what the rich man wanted.
Abraham also said there are those who wish to cross over to the rich man, but otherwise cannot. They wanted to help the rich man after all.
Luke 16:26
26And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’
Luke 16:26
26And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’