Once saved always saved?

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Why bother with what you think is "implied" when we have very clear verses that SAY that believers possess eternal life and recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

I agree that all believers possess eternal life, but that is not the topic of our discussion. The topic is by what means are they delivered eternally. You think that the unregenerate person's belief is what causes them to be delivered eternally.

No, I don't believe that. You are very confused, even though I have been crystal clear. God is the One who saves believers. He saves those who believe. The Bible even says that plainly.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

I believe the scriptures to say that God choose a people, not because of their belief in the things of the spirit but because of his sovereign will, according to his election (Rom 9:11)

Go to Eph 1:4. It says, "God chose us...to be holy and blameless". The "us" in v.4 is clearly defined in 1:19 as "us who BELIEVE".

All believers in the NT are chosen for service. There are NO verses that say that people are unconditionally chosen for salvation.

The unconditional election is of ALL believers and is for service. iow, every believer is chosen to serve. Simple enough.

John 15:16 - Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.

What's the context here? Bearing fruit. That is service, not salvation.

John 6:70,71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Judas was elected as the betrayer. God didn't force him to. God KNEW he would if given the opportunity, and Judas was quite the opportunist.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Nope. None of the verses are about loss of salvation.

What makes you think that I believe one of God's adopted children can lose his eternal salvation?

My comment was a response to one of your comments. So apparently you are giving off those vibes.

You might want to preview before posting.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Maybe you are totaly unaware of 2 Cor 5:19 - that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Because of your false indoctrination you are asserting that the scriptures are directed to the unregenerate person.

No, because of YOUR OWN false teaching you assert that the Scriptures AREN'T directed to unregenerate people. I proved my case with Titus 2:11. You have no "out". Busted.

The "US" in 2 Cor 5:19, has reference to the members of the church at Corinth, not to the unregenerate.

Go back to v.14 and 15. "one died for ALL". What it doesn't say is "one died for ONLY believers".

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do you believe that before the carnal man, has been born again, he can be subject to the laws of God?

It has been true since God GAVE the Law to Moses. Where have you been?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The one mentioned in the Bible. What did you think?

Do you have a verse that plainly says that willful sinning results in loss of salvation? Of course you don't. It doesn't exist.

However, I do have a verse that says in plain language that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Jn 10:28

I asked about a verse that SAYS plainly that salvation can be lost. This passage fails.

Matthew 18:21

New International Version
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
English Standard Version
Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?”

My brother or sister that would be a christian and if they sinned against Peter do you not thank they would have sinned against Jesus (God) also. All you have to do is use a little common sense here to get the meaning Jesus gives Peter his answer in verse 22:English Standard Version
Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times.

1st John 2:1

New International Version
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

New Living Translation
My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous.

English Standard Version
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Berean Standard Bible
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

Berean Literal Bible
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you might not sin. And if anyone should sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous One.

King James Bible
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

My little children: John in his loving, carrying, and understanding way is addressing the church; AND IF ANY MAY SIN yes we will all sin and fall short at sometime or another, it may be a “little sin” of a “big sin” it does not matter in Gods eyes sin is sin but if any of us does sin and we will and do we have a advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the Righteous.

How does an advocate work you go and ask them to speak for you to another person and put in a good word for you or work out details of an agreement. The important thing is you have to ask the advocate to act on you behalf.

All of your attempts to show that salvation can be lost have FAILED.

NONE of these verses say anything about losing salvation.

 

[Thewatchman]

Free Grace:

Let me ask you a personal question; Sense you have gotten saved have you committed a sin? The answer is yes we all have and if you say you have not you just committed your first sin. If you do not ask God for forgiveness for that sin it goes into the book of life and if you get to many of them in there you could be in danger of not making it. How do they get washed away or blotted out;

2nd Peter 1

Confirming One’s Calling and Election

3His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins10.Therefore, my brothers and sisters, a make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Footnotes:
a 10 The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God’s family.

The Lords Prayer5“When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get. 6But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you.

7“When you pray, don’t babble on and on as the Gentiles do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. 8Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him! 9Pray like this:

Our Father in heaven,

may your name be kept holy.

10May your Kingdom come soon.

May your will be done on earth,

as it is in heaven.

11Give us today the food we need,a

12and forgive us our sins,

as we have forgiven those who sin against us.

13And don’t let us yield to temptation,b

but rescue us from the evil one.c

14“If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. 15But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Footnotes:
a6:11 Or Give us today our food for the day; or Give us today our food for tomorrow.
b6:13a Or And keep us from being tested.
c6:13b Or from evil. Some manuscripts add For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.



Here is the problem with the once saved always saved doctrine. I have done this.

Ask some that hold that belief what about sin A,B,C, . . . and they will answer “Praise God brother Jesus died for us and we are no longer under the law but under grace it is OK you believe do not worry about it.

Can you imagine what that would do to a new or weak christian.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Free Grace:

Let me ask you a personal question; Sense you have gotten saved have you committed a sin? The answer is yes we all have and if you say you have not you just committed your first sin. If you do not ask God for forgiveness for that sin it goes into the book of life and if you get to many of them in there you could be in danger of not making it.

Go ahead and prove your opinion here with clear Scripture that obviously communicates what you opine.

You also obviously are oblivious to what Jesus taught about eternal life.

From John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40,47 believers possess eternal life.
From John 10:28, recipients (believers) of eternal life shall never perish.

Too bad you either didn't know what Jesus taught, or you are aware of these verses but have chosen to reject them as truth.

Since Jesus paid the debt for all sin, no sin puts anyone into the LOF. For those who didn't receive the gift of eternal life (their choice), they have NO OTHER PLACE for them to go.




How do they get washed away or blotted out;

2nd Peter 1

Confirming One’s Calling and Election

3His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins10.Therefore, my brothers and sisters, a make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Footnotes:
a 10 The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God’s family.

The Lords Prayer5“When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get. 6But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you.

7“When you pray, don’t babble on and on as the Gentiles do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. 8Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him! 9Pray like this:

Our Father in heaven,

may your name be kept holy.

10May your Kingdom come soon.

May your will be done on earth,

as it is in heaven.

11Give us today the food we need,a

12and forgive us our sins,

as we have forgiven those who sin against us.

13And don’t let us yield to temptation,b

but rescue us from the evil one.c

14“If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. 15But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Footnotes:
a6:11 Or Give us today our food for the day; or Give us today our food for tomorrow.
b6:13a Or And keep us from being tested.
c6:13b Or from evil. Some manuscripts add For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.



Here is the problem with the once saved always saved doctrine. I have done this.

Ask some that hold that belief what about sin A,B,C, . . . and they will answer “Praise God brother Jesus died for us and we are no longer under the law but under grace it is OK you believe do not worry about it.

Can you imagine what that would do to a new or weak christian. [/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace2]

Free Grace:

Let me ask you a personal question; Sense you have gotten saved have you committed a sin? The answer is yes we all have and if you say you have not you just committed your first sin. If you do not ask God for forgiveness for that sin it goes into the book of life and if you get to many of them in there you could be in danger of not making it.

Go ahead and prove your opinion here with clear Scripture that obviously communicates what you opine.

You also obviously are oblivious to what Jesus taught about eternal life.

From John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40,47 believers possess eternal life.
From John 10:28, recipients (believers) of eternal life shall never perish.

Too bad you either didn't know what Jesus taught, or you are aware of these verses but have chosen to reject them as truth.

Since Jesus paid the debt for all sin, no sin puts anyone into the LOF. For those who didn't receive the gift of eternal life (their choice), they have NO OTHER PLACE for them to go.

How do they get washed away or blotted out;

2nd Peter 1

Confirming One’s Calling and Election

This is not the way one's sins are blotted out. They are blotted out (paid for) by Christ's death on the cross. But you obviously don't believe that.

3His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins10.Therefore, my brothers and sisters, a make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

This was written to believers, already saved people.

Peter was teaching believers that they have everything they need to life a godly life. v.3
But only if we appropriate the gifts (given us everything we need) will we participate in the divine nature. v.4 This is about having fellowship with the Lord and bearing fruit.
v.5-8 teach that by adding the list of character qualities to our faith, the believer won't be ineffective/unproductive.
v.9 teaches that believers who don't add them to their faith are blind, and have forgotten that they have been cleansed from past sins.
v.10 implores believers to make every effort to confirm their calling/election. That is done by adding to their faith the character qualities listed in v.5-8.
v.11 informs believers that those who DO add to their faith will not just have an entrance into the eternal kingdom, but will have a RICH WELCOME into the kingdom. This speaks of eternal reward.

Here is the problem with the once saved always saved doctrine. I have done this.

Ask some that hold that belief what about sin A,B,C, . . . and they will answer “Praise God brother Jesus died for us and we are no longer under the law but under grace it is OK you believe do not worry about it.

Can you imagine what that would do to a new or weak christian.

Like all problems, this is one of ignorance as well.

Sin does NOT effect one's salvation. And you know very well that there are no verses that say they do.

The problem here is that the teaching about God's painful discipline of His rebellious children has not been taught enough. Very few pastors seem even aware that God really spanks His children, and it may not be pretty.

So, believer; go ahead and sin. And see how happy you will be.

Two reasons for believers to be faithful and obedient; to avoid God's painful discipline and to earn eternal reward.

Both are very worthwhile reasons.

Just remember this: if you see a believer living a very carnal life, and he/she seems rather happy, you don't have nearly enough information about how they feel inside. Many people cover up their inner misery by faking it on the outside while they are living it up.

But inside, they are just miserable. So they aren't getting away with anything.

Tell you what; go ahead and sin like crazy and see how you will feel. You may have a lot of fun initially, but sooner or later, all that "fun" will be replaced by misery, even while you continue in your rebellion.

So don't take my word for it. Try it out yourself. You'll see what I mean.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

John 20:31 - But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the "LIFE" in this verse is not eternal life. Don't you own a concordance?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Furthermore, Titus 2:11 proves that salvation is offered to all or everyone. So your theory is debunked by Scripture.

Paul left Titus in Crete, to ordain elders (preachers) in every city. Nowhere in this scripture does it say, that deliverance is an offering. It says that the grace of God "bringeth" deliverance, which is evidenced in Eph 2:1-5

The "US" in verse 12 is the "all men" in verse 11. Another example of how God wants his adopted children to live here in this present world.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

That was OBVIOUSLY written to unbelievers. Unbelievers that John wanted to become believers.

The things that seems obviously to you, usually turn out to be wrong, according to your misinterpretations.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Your posts seem to negate any need for belief in the Savior.

Believing in spiritual things is a product of the new spiritual birth.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

That is quite naive. Of course the Bible is for the human race. The Law wasn't given to believers only. It was given to the Jews, who were to share it with the world. Where have you been?

The unregenerate person is, yet, carnal, until they have been quickened to the new spiritual birth. Rom 8:7 - The carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither, indeed can be.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No, I don't believe that. You are very confused, even though I have been crystal clear. God is the One who saves believers. He saves those who believe. The Bible even says that plainly.

If, as you say, "He saves those who believe" Then common sense would tell you that their belief is what causes God to save them.

You contend that it is up to mankind to choose to believe, and if he does not he goes to hell.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No, I don't believe that. You are very confused, even though I have been crystal clear. God is the One who saves believers. He saves those who believe. The Bible even says that plainl

Where your misinterpretation comes from, is the fact that there are scriptures that say that God does deliver those who believe, But it is not eternal deliverance. There is a deliverance when God's adopted children comes unto a knowledge of the truth. Rom 10:1-3 is a good example.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No, because of YOUR OWN false teaching you assert that the Scriptures AREN'T directed to unregenerate people. I proved my case with Titus 2:11. You have no "out". Busted

No, I am not busted. Just keep reading my posts.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

It has been true since God GAVE the Law to Moses. Where have you been?

According to your theory, you have to omit some scriptures to make it work for you. Read Romans 8:7. I won't ask "where have you been" That's not the way I converse.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
John 20:31 - But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the "LIFE" in this verse is not eternal life.

Boy, are YOU deluded.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Furthermore, Titus 2:11 proves that salvation is offered to all or everyone. So your theory is debunked by Scripture.

Paul left Titus in Crete, to ordain elders (preachers) in every city. Nowhere in this scripture does it say, that deliverance is an offering. It says that the grace of God "bringeth" deliverance,

You need to familiarize yourself with biblehub.com and check out ALL the English translations they have for a verse all on one page. You are kidding yourself if you deny that Titus 2:11 isn't about offering the free gift of salvation.

The "US" in verse 12 is the "all men" in verse 11. Another example of how God wants his adopted children to live here in this present world.

Your theology is just weird. And not found anywhere in the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Your posts seem to negate any need for belief in the Savior.

Believing in spiritual things is a product of the new spiritual birth.

How about that! You agree with me. However, the new birth FOLLOWS the trust issue of the gospel.