Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

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cv5

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^ P.S. And Paul calls that "disembodied spirit" thing we'll be in, after we DIE, as "unclothed" in the 2Cor5 passage (whereas "clothed upon" in that passage refers to being immediately clothed-upon with our glorified bodies APART FROM having to DIE first, in that 2Cor5 passage)


2Cor5 -

--"unclothed" means being part from a body for a time UPON DEATH of the believer [re: the Church which is His body"];

--"clothed upon" means being immediately clothed-upon with our glorified bodies APART FROM having to DIE first (which occurs at our Rapture time-slot)
That peculiar term supports the pre-flood fallen angels/nephilim doctrinal position IMO.

Strong's Greek: 3613. οἰκητήριον (oikétérion) -- a habitation (biblehub.com)

2 Corinthians 5:2 N-ANS
GRK: στενάζομεν τὸ οἰκητήριον ἡμῶν τὸ
NAS: to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
KJV: with our house which
INT: we groan the dwelling of us which [is]
Jude 1:6 N-ANS
GRK: τὸ ἴδιον οἰκητήριον εἰς κρίσιν
NAS: their proper abode, He has kept
KJV: their own habitation, he hath reserved
INT: the own dwelling into [the] judgment
 

Evmur

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Matthew 24-- the coming of he Son of Man and the gathering of the elect. Compare to Paul's reference to the rapture in II Thessalonians 2, the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto him. I Thessalonians 4 sets the rapture at the coming of the Lord.

Is there any scripture that describes or predicts a pre-tribulational rapture... not stuff like 'Come up hither' but some solid evidence?
Matt 24 is the same as 2Thess 2 ... defo
 

cv5

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Again, you've left out a verse.

26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
As TDW has earlier stated: profoundly different gathering.....

"...and that whole time-period (described there) leading up to and concluding with Matt24:29-31, which is parallel Isa27:12-13,9 (see WHO, and TO WHAT LOCATION, and the MANNER in which they are gathered ["ye shall be gathered ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel," not "AS ONE" as WE/"the Church which is His body" will be!] and BY WHOM they are gathered--all of which is wholly distinct from that of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event). Compare also VERSE 9 (Is27) with that of ROMANS 11! (and Dan9:24!)"

There is no drawn-out gathering of Christians by angels in the rapture. It Jesus Himself coming for us all in an INSTANT. Correct?
 

cv5

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Aaaaand the pre-tribbers prevail once again. Not much of a contest really. It never is....;)
 

Jackson123

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As TDW has earlier stated: profoundly different gathering.....

"...and that whole time-period (described there) leading up to and concluding with Matt24:29-31, which is parallel Isa27:12-13,9 (see WHO, and TO WHAT LOCATION, and the MANNER in which they are gathered ["ye shall be gathered ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel," not "AS ONE" as WE/"the Church which is His body" will be!] and BY WHOM they are gathered--all of which is wholly distinct from that of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event). Compare also VERSE 9 (Is27) with that of ROMANS 11! (and Dan9:24!)"

There is no drawn-out gathering of Christians by angels in the rapture. It Jesus Himself coming for us all in an INSTANT. Correct?
So you believe rapture first than angel gather the rest in the next 7 years
And you assumed gathering Christian by angel not instant
what is your definition of instant?
 

Bob-Carabbio

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In pre-tribulational rapture teaching, is Jesus supposed to come as a 'thief in the night' at the rapture, the second coming, or both?


I don't see multiple returns of Christ in scripture, so I can't make the distinction since I don't see it in scripture. But what does pre-trib eschatology say about this?
Which "Authoritative Eschatological version" would you like. There various "Opinions".
 

cv5

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"the rest in the next 7 years"
"what is your definition of instant?"
I think you missed the point......Jesus in Matt 24:29-31 is addressing ISRAEL. Clearly.

Matt 24:15 makes it perfecty clear that in these passages, Jesus is proclaiming and expounding upon the future fulfillment of the Daniel chapter 9 prophecy......given to ISRAEL. I mean it just can't be any more clear than that.

TDW and I have been repeating this over and over and over again: there is no rapture event anywhere in Matthew 24. The Rapture has already happened by Revelation 4......before the birth pangs/first seal/revealing of the man of sin of Rev 6.

This accords perfectly with 2 Thessalonians 2 of course. Along with the rest of the Bible both OT and NT.

The fact is that the pre-trib rapture doctrine accounts for every single contextually relevent verse in the Bible. No loose ends, no gaps, no quandries, no paradoxes.......nothing but sublime Divine perfection.

The pre-tribbers won this debate. Same as all the rest. It wasn't even close.

Instant? How about one unit of Planck time....10 to the -32 seconds? Just a wild guess.....
 

TheDivineWatermark

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2 Tess 2
[...]
verse 1 about rapture and second coming
vrese 3 don’t let any body lie to you, that day ( rapture and second coming) not going to happen before man of sin being reveal
What you are doing (as so many tend to do) is to think that the false claim Paul is warning about in verse 2 is about "rapture and second coming"...

... but that is not what the text actually informs us is the subject of the lie Paul is warning about in verse 2.

The false claim he's warning about is neither the "rapture" nor "second coming".

The text in v.2 does not speak of either of these as the content/subject of the false claim Paul is warning them about.

If one misapprehends what it is that the false claim is expressing, this is the first mis-step resulting in not grasping the point that Paul is making here in this context.




> man of sin being reveal on great tribulation

so rapture after gt
Your conclusions are stemming from skipping completely over and past verse 2 [see your quote above] when reading and explaining verse 3, because you are defining the terms in v.2 according to the assumptions you have about what the false claim in verse 2 is actually about (mis-defining the words in v.2 as the "Amill-teachings" do, as well as other eschatological viewpoints stemming from the same roots as that one do also--incorrectly EQUATING it with the terms found in verse 1... but they are not speaking of the same things in verse 1 and verse 2)
 

Jackson123

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I think you missed the point......Jesus in Matt 24:29-31 is addressing ISRAEL. Clearly.

Matt 24:15 makes it perfecty clear that in these passages, Jesus is proclaiming and expounding upon the future fulfillment of the Daniel chapter 9 prophecy......given to ISRAEL. I mean it just can't be any more clear than that.

TDW and I have been repeating this over and over and over again: there is no rapture event anywhere in Matthew 24. The Rapture has already happened by Revelation 4......before the birth pangs/first seal/revealing of the man of sin of Rev 6.

This accords perfectly with 2 Thessalonians 2 of course. Along with the rest of the Bible both OT and NT.

The fact is that the pre-trib rapture doctrine accounts for every single contextually relevent verse in the Bible. No loose ends, no gaps, no quandries, no paradoxes.......nothing but sublime Divine perfection.

The pre-tribbers won this debate. Same as all the rest. It wasn't even close.

Instant? How about one unit of Planck time....10 to the -32 seconds? Just a wild guess.....
In Matt 24 Jesus talk to His follower it is apply for christian
how about 2 tess 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or th

verse 1 what is our gathering unto Him mean.?
Verse 3 tell verse 1 happen after man of sin reveal or gt
 

GaryA

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For some strange reason, there is NO mention of a rapture anywhere in Matt 24, Mark 13 or Luke 21. Let alone Rev 6 thru 19.

Crazy huh?
Oh, that's just those pesky pretrib blinders - if you are ever able to take them off, you will see quite clearly! :)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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It fits post trib better--without having to divide references to Christ's coming arbitrarily into two events.
It's all based on explanations to try to make this whole scenario fit with passages of scripture. But the scripture doesn't teach the scenario, so where is it's authority?

It's a 'goodness of fit' approach, not something the Bible actually teaches.
I disagree, as you know, if you've read some of my earlier posts in this thread, esp. where I say that Paul becomes even more explicit with its timing, in relation to the time-period known as "the DOTL" (the Subject of the false claim in v.2--distinct from Paul's v.1 Subject regarding "our Rapture" which will be "in the air," by contrast... and yes repeats this sequence 3x in this text).





It is actually theologies (with their resulting eschatological viewpoints) based on covenant theology which makes assumptions, upon which all the rest of their non-scriptural notions are based (flimsily) and derived from, and even requires them to change "what the Scriptures say" to comport with their theology (instead of the other way around, lol).

I'll try to give you a little example of this:

... their saying that David's throne has now been relocated up to Heaven (ever since Jesus' resurrection / ascension), and they try to say that Acts 3 (esp. vv.11 thru chpt end) expresses this very idea.

But that is NOT the idea being conveyed in Acts 3, at all.

The reason/reasons they [incorrectly] THINK it is conveying that, is because:

--they see the word "RAISE" used in that chpt a few times, and surmise that they are each referencing THE SAME THING: His having been "RAISED from the dead"; but not every use of that word in this chapter speaks of that (and here is their first mis-step!)... Verse 15 speaks of that, yes, but the other two mentions of the word "raise" speak of His earthly ministry, His having been raised up to a position of prominence (as "Prophet" [...like unto Moses]) BEFORE His death on the Cross; Strike one on the "amill-teachings" incorrect explanation of this passage, all because they START with searching for the WORD "RAISE" and then imposing their covenant theology IDEA back into it (the idea that most all of OT prophecy was fulfilled in Jesus' FIRST coming / at the Cross), thereby continuing on to misread the next part of this chpt (see next entry)...


--they thus incorrectly conclude that "prophets spoke OF THESE DAYS" means, the idea that David's throne is [supposedly] NOW "relocated" up to Heaven; but "spoke OF THESE DAYS" doesn't refer to His "coming in glory / as King," but refers rather to His "Suffering SERVANT" aspect (that they had not been anticipating, not understanding both aspects were ABOUT HIM / JESUS); see 1Sam8:7 for example (compared with both what Jesus Himself said regarding the rulers'/religious leaders' view of His first coming ministry Luke 19:14, and what Joseph's FIRST dream shows us in "TYPE", i.e. rejection by His own brothers, Gen37:8--Same basic sentence used in all three passages, referring to the "rejection" aspect (i.e. His "Suffering SERVANT" aspect, that being His FIRST advent); The people Peter is speaking to in this context had OVERLOOKED / BYPASSED His "Suffering Servant" aspect, thereby fulfilling (THEMSELVES) those very prophecies;


--consequently, due to their "theology" being off and thus basing their "interpretations" ON said theology, they then have to completely mis-read [/change] what it is that v.21 PLAINLY SAYS, which is, "21 whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive UNTIL the timeS of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." (Again, what did they speak of? Much more than merely His feet touch the ground--while "obliterating" the planet, according to, say, "Amill-teachings" [stemming from that "theology" mentioned above... as an example).






See, they look at (zero in on) the THREE MENTIONS of the word "RAISE," in Acts 3, make ASSUMPTIONS about the word and what SINGULAR THING they think it means here in each of those 3 verses (so that they can back up their root "theology"--that pretty much all prophecies were fulfilled in Christ's FIRST advent--that's why they think "Israel" turned into "the Church" now, etc...), but without reading the entire passage for what it actually conveys, with COMPREHENSION. It is NOT making the point that David's throne has now been RELOCATED to Heaven, since His resurrection.

That is to mis-read this passage, and to not DISTINGUISH the TWO distinct "RAISE" issues being spoken of here in Acts 3.


This is just one puny example, mind you.





[I'm not saying that I'm "deducing" and "surmising"... Though I've offered some "supporting" texts, those others have not been what I consider the PRIMARY text, regarding the "timing" of our Rapture in relation to that time-period known as "the DOTL" which commences with the INITIAL "birth pang" 1Th5:1-3 [Matt24:4 / Mk13:5, i.e. Seal #1] at the START of the 7-yr period not commencing at its END; Paul is explicit in 2Th2 regarding this... but mis-defining words and phrases, and poor grammatical methods will have one taking mis-steps right out of the gate, bringing one to the exact opposite conclusion from what Paul is actually conveying in this text (the repeated-3x-SEQUENCE in this passage)]
 

Jackson123

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What you are doing (as so many tend to do) is to think that the false claim Paul is warning about in verse 2 is about "rapture and second coming"...

... but that is not what the text actually informs us is the subject of the lie Paul is warning about in verse 2.

The false claim he's warning about is neither the "rapture" nor "second coming".

The text in v.2 does not speak of either of these as the content/subject of the false claim Paul is warning them about.

If one misapprehends what it is that the false claim is expressing, this is the first mis-step resulting in not grasping the point that Paul is making here in this context.






Your conclusions are stemming from skipping completely over and past verse 2 [see your quote above] when reading and explaining verse 3, because you are defining the terms in v.2 according to the assumptions you have about what the false claim in verse 2 is actually about (mis-defining the words in v.2 as the "Amill-teachings" do, as well as other eschatological viewpoints stemming from the same roots as that one do also--incorrectly EQUATING it with the terms found in verse 1... but they are not speaking of the same things in verse 1 and verse 2)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or th

verse 1 is title what Paul want to address
verse 2 is Paul statement in detail, Paul know Thessalonians think rapture and second coming in the corner
Verse 3 Paul said no mean the second coming and rapture not that son, than he tell that day ( second coming and rapture) will happen after man of sin being reveal ( ac reveal in gt)

so post trib
 

cv5

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In Matt 24 Jesus talk to His follower it is apply for christian
I disagree. Jesus is talking to his brethren.....the Jews. So is Daniel in his ch 9 prophecy (this prophecy is given exclusively to Jews..."THY PEOPLE"....THY HOLY CITY") . The 70th week of which Jesus expounds upon in Matt 24.

I cannot understand how people can possibly miss the obvious fact that
the 70th week of Daniel = 7 yr tribulation = Matt 24. The result/conclusion of which is the SC, the final redemption of Israel. And a bunch of other things including the wedding feast, resurrected Old Testament saints etc etc.
 

cv5

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Oh, that's just those pesky pretrib blinders - if you are ever able to take them off, you will see quite clearly! :)
Dude......pre-tribbers won. Big time. Again. Batting 1000. How can we lose? The Scripture is on our side.....to say the least.
 

Jackson123

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I disagree. Jesus is talking to his brethren.....the Jews. So is Daniel in his ch 9 prophecy (this prophecy is given exclusively to Jews..."THY PEOPLE"....THY HOLY CITY") . The 70th week of which Jesus expounds upon in Matt 24.

I cannot understand how people can possibly miss the obvious fact that
the 70th week of Daniel = 7 yr tribulation = Matt 24. The result/conclusion of which is the SC, the final redemption of Israel. And a bunch of other things including the wedding feast, resurrected Old Testament saints etc etc.
I believe all or most Jesus audience was Jews but it is ally to Christian’s
for example jesus teach love your enemy, the audience was Jews but it is to christian
do you read 2 Tess 2

tessalonian was gentile not jews and Paul said that rapture and second coming after man of sin being reveal or after tribulation
 

GaryA

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1. The great tribulation
2. Jesus returns
3. The rapture of the church
4. The day of the Lord
5. The millennial kingdom
6. New Heavens and New Earth
7.Onward to eternity.
And, the Two Witnesses [attestation/exhibition] (3.5 years) between 1 & 2 in your list.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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verse 2 is Paul statement in detail, Paul know Thessalonians think rapture and second coming in the corner
No, verse 2 is not speaking of Paul's statement (from v.1) in greater detail.

Verse 2 is Paul spelling out a false claim (not to be believed) purporting "that the day of the Lord is present / is already here [perfect indicative]". It wasn't "present". But that is speaking of the judgment portion OF the overall very lengthy day of the Lord time-period, aka what we commonly call the 7-yr Tribulation Period.

It wasn't "present" and Paul goes on to reiterate the sequence 3x... the sequence between our Rapture in the air event and the time-period called "the day of the Lord" that the lie / false claim in v.2 is about--claiming it "is present / already here"--which is NOT about "rapture" nor about His "second coming".



IOW, their "false claim" (v.2) was not about Paul's verse 1 Rapture subject;

Paul is the one bringing that Verse 1 Subject to bear on the issue of the false claim, that is, its relation time-wise / sequence-wise to the other.





He's saying that, in order for such a claim to be true ("that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE"), ONE THING must happen "FIRST" (and subsequently / distinctly, "the man of sin be revealed"--which "revealed" occurs at the START of the 7-yr period ['the day of the Lord' will then indeed be present!], not at the point when he does the "sitteth in the temple of God" thing 2Th2:4 in the "MIDDLE" point of the 7-yr period--but see, that's not his "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL / advent / presence / parousia]" point in the chronology 2Th2:9a [,8a]... no. Each Section of Scripture covering this same Subject ALL AGREE... regarding this person, there's the BEGINNING aspects, the MIDDLE aspects, and the ENDING aspects, ALL in AGREEMENT; You are only picking up on his doings from the MID-POINT on, and calling that as though that is his "revealed" moment, but that is only so much human reasonings, I realize commonly repeated so as to sound right, but ignores ALL of the passages TOGETHER which cover this Subject [ALL are in agreement, as I said])