Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[Runningman]

The types, patterns, symbols, macro-codes and explicit proclamation of the pre-trib rapture is literally all over the place in the bible.
Both OT and NT. I mean its just everywhere man.

Remember....the feast of firstfruits (CHURCH! CHURCH! CHURCH!) is the Barley harvest. The wheat harvest follows.......

It’s not obviously in the Bible. It took me about one year before I finally understood how pre-tribbers arrived at their conclusion.

People don’t just pick up the Bible and see the pre-trib. It’s part of an error in foundational Biblical knowledge. There are prerequisites to know to the pre-trib doctrine. Many things must be interpreted a certain way before one even has the pre-trib rapture goggles that allows them to see it.

From what I can tell, the root of the problem is dispensational theology which is actually more like a school of thought for interpreting the Bible. I honestly don’t think dispensationalists are Protestant; it’s an entirely different branch of Christianity.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Oh, I had meant to add to the middle section of my Post #194, the words that Jesus spoke to His 12 disciples in Matthew 19:28, where He tells them, "Verily I say unto you that ye who have followed Me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of His glory [see Matt25:31-34 for its TIMING and location], ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones judgING the twelve tribes of Israel." (...the "12 tribes of Israel" [that nation] that that particular "theology" says God has no more place in His scheme of things, regarding them; see also Lk22:30,16,18 corresponding with this also).

Jesus means what He says.





[This, referring to the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom... promised to them / Israel... and yes, there will be "guests"]

 

[cv5]

Oh, I had meant to add to the middle section of my Post #194, the words that Jesus spoke to His 12 disciples in Matthew 19:28, where He tells them, "Verily I say unto you that ye who have followed Me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of His glory [see Matt25:31-34 for its TIMING and location], ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones judgING the twelve tribes of Israel." (...the "12 tribes of Israel" [that nation] that that particular "theology" says God has no more place in His scheme of things, regarding them; see also Lk22:30,16,18 corresponding with this also).

Jesus means what He says.





[This, referring to the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom... promised to them / Israel... and yes, there will be "guests"]

Interesting parallel verses here.....

Eze 20:33
As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

Eze 20:34
And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

Eze 20:35
And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

Eze 20:36
Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 20:37
And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

Eze 20:38
And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

 

[cv5]

It’s not obvious....

To some perhaps. But not all....

 

[cv5]

Great Tribulation ends
Two Witnesses
Trumpet Events
Second Coming of Christ
Resurrection & Rapture
Wrath of God
Armageddon
Marriage Supper
Millennium Begins

What do you make of these verses?

Luk 22:29
And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Luk 22:30
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

But do they mean what they say......

YES. however our "Speculation" as to what they mean in practical terms, is probably just so much "Hot Air" (like most Eschatological opinions).

 

[cv5]

YES. however our "Speculation" as to what they mean in practical terms, is probably just so much "Hot Air" (like most Eschatological opinions).

I disagree. God does not sow His word in vain. Nor His prophecies. They have intentional specific meaning and purpose. And are meant to be understood.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

I disagree. God does not sow His word in vain. Nor His prophecies. They have intentional specific meaning and purpose. And are meant to be understood.

SO - tell us what they mean. Your guess will be as authoritative as everybody else's.

 

[cv5]

SO - tell us what they mean. Your guess will be as authoritative as everybody else's.

Scroll thru this thread. Great stuff. I recommend TheDivineWatermark for further insights on the pre-trib rapture.

Search results - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Scroll thru this thread. Great stuff. I recommend TheDivineWatermark for further insights on the pre-trib rapture.

Search results - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

I didn't think so.

 

[cv5]

I didn't think so.

Enjoy playing your banjo and ignoring the finest biblical scholarship available.

 

[cv5]

We all know God can do anything He wishes to do; however, making assumptions that override what the Bible actually says tends to distort prophetic interpretation.

Well here is a good reference. I wonder what the time of transport from point A to point B would be? Quick I'm sure...

Act 8:39
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

caught away
PHRASE
g726
ἥρπασεν ἁρπάζωharpazō

Something else. I wonder what span of time it took between the command and the transformation from a 4 day old corpse to vibrant flesh and blood? Probably pretty quick.....

Jhn 11:43
And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Enjoy playing your banjo and ignoring the finest biblical scholarship available.

Yup. EVERY denominational system (including the Assemblies of God that I'm a member of) has "The Finest Biblical Scholarship Available". You have no idea how many I've listened to, and sat under, over the last 59 years.

 

[cv5]

Yup. EVERY denominational system (including the Assemblies of God that I'm a member of) has "The Finest Biblical Scholarship Available". You have no idea how many I've listened to, and sat under, over the last 59 years.

Some good color here buddy. I would go thru both 1 & 2 Thes by this commentator. Top notch exegesis.

I Thessalonians 4:16-4:18 (Joe Focht) | Blue Letter Bible Audio

I Thessalonians - Expositional by Joe Focht (blueletterbible.org)

II Thessalonians - Expositional by Joe Focht (blueletterbible.org)

 

[cv5]

Yup. EVERY denominational system (including the Assemblies of God that I'm a member of) has "The Finest Biblical Scholarship Available". You have no idea how many I've listened to, and sat under, over the last 59 years.

I have bailed out on many crazy denoms. My condolences.
The upside is....I never bought into severe heresies...I never believed them or the whacked-out proclaimers.

My advice: figure it out on your own, and own it.

IMO....you can get very VERY close to the truth of end-time exegesis. All on your own.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

My advice: figure it out on your own, and own it.

No need to bother with it. I probably only have a few years left, and there's no sense wasting effort of "Echatalogical theories" which are essentially of no value. He'll be back ON TIME regardless of our "Theologies".

 

[ZNP]

As you can be the same person but relate two different ways to two other people, so will Jesus' coming be. He is coming as a thief in the night to those that have an indifferent regard towards him and with healing in his wings to those who fear His Name.
Malachi 4:1-2
The Great Day of the LORD
“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble; the day is coming when I will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of Hosts. “Not a root or branch will be left to them.” 2“But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings, and you will go out and leap like calves from the stall.

My understanding is that the rapture prior to the tribulation is similar to winning an award at the Olympics. It is likened to that kind of judgement. Now although this may only represent a very small percent of world's population and a minority of those who call themselves Christians, it will impact everyone.

1. Imagine you are a pastor of a church and you are left behind. It will bring into question everything you have done and taught.

2. Imagine you are a lukewarm Christian, in the same way it will be catastrophic. You believe in the Lord and you now know the tribulation has started and the only way out for you is to be martyred.

3. Now even if it is only 6% of the US population, these 6% pay their taxes and are honest, law abiding citizens. Only 50% of Americans are taxpayers, so this could work out to over 8% of taxpayers. That will be a major hit to Federal and state tax revenue.

4. Not only so but all businesses will lose 6% of their customers. That could be a huge hit.

5. Not only so, imagine what this will do to consumer confidence? All of a sudden instead of 6% of Americans talking about the tribulation and the rapture it will be 60%.

6. But it is worse than that because Jesus said it would be like the days of Lot. As he left the city of Sodom and Gomorrah fire fell on that city. A strong case can be made for the US being Sodom and Gomorrah, so if in one hour the US economy collapses imagine how that will impact the rest of the world.

7. But it is worse than that, I have heard based on Ken Peters dream, that all the babies under 2 will also be taken.

8. And then of course you will see 6% of employees disappear. Every business will be impacted.

But there is a whole different way to look at this and that is the pagan celebration of a guy in a red suit sneaking into houses in the middle of the night and exchanging their eternal salvation for some piece of plastic junk from the Mall.

 

[presidente]

The Bible teaches that at the coming of the Lord, the dead in Christ shall rise first and they which are alive and remain will be caught up together with Him to meet the Lord in the air, and that the Lord will return with His saints.

I Thessalonians 3
13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

I Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We also see this passage:
I Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is all in the same book. He doesn't say there are multiple comings of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are waiting for the Lord's coming. When that happens, he prays his reader will be sanctified body, soul, and spirit. He says the dead in Christ shall rise first, and they which are alive and remain shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

How in the world can anyone read this epistle and thing Paul believed in pre-trib... or II Thessalonians for that matter. In II Thessalonians 1, the church is hear when Jesus comes back. Pre-tribbers make a big deal out of 'church' not showing up after the letters to the churches. But Revelation doesn't use church/ekklesia/congregation to refer to all the saints throughout the world, just for local city churches. But the church is here when Jesus gets back in II Thessalonians 1, when Jesus returns with his angels executing judgment on them that believe not, when he comes to be glorified in them that believe.
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

In II Thessalonians 1, the church is hear when Jesus comes back.

Not the case.

The Greek text in verse 7 does NOT say, "WILL RECEIVE rest..."

 

[presidente]

Just imagine this end times scenario:

Some religious world leader comes on the scene. There are church people who say, "It's okay if I take this mark because this can't be the Anti-Christ. The rapture hasn't happened yet. And I went to church one time and the preacher told me that if I repeated a prayer after him, something about a guy called Jesus... but I remember the part about religion being bad and relationship being good... anyway, he said if I repeated that prayer I would be saved and I could never lose my salvation or go to Hell. So it's okay if I take this mark."