Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?
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Your posts generally are aling the lines of trying to figure out a way to make pretrib a viable alternative for difficult passages for pretrib rather than finding actual evidence for the theory.
also I have not seen a response from you in regard to whether you have any expertise in Greek or if you rely on commentaries or if you are just basically guessing about what the Greek words mean based on an interlinear.
also I have not seen a response from you in regard to whether you have any expertise in Greek or if you rely on commentaries or if you are just basically guessing about what the Greek words mean based on an interlinear.
FreeGrace2 said:
In fact, 2 Thess 2:1-3 plainly tells us WHEN the "coming of the Lord and "our being gathered to Him" will occur. Listen in:
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (when Jesus comes back to earth) will not come until
Good grief! What a sentence. Don't you ever take a breath? I strongly disagree with your opinion. v.1 is about "the coming of the Lord", which will clearly occur on a specific DATE. So "that day" absolutely does refer to "the coming of the Lord".
Your confusion is likely due to your refusal to accept that the singular resurrection of all believers will be at the Second Advent, which is what Paul was saying in 2 Thess 2:1. In v.2, Paul was noting the congregation's confusion over THAT coming. They had been erroneously told that the Lord had already come and they missed it.
Your "assessment" isn't close to the reality.
Of course it is. But you just don't want to accept the truth. It refutes your pre-trib opinion.
In fact, 2 Thess 2:1-3 plainly tells us WHEN the "coming of the Lord and "our being gathered to Him" will occur. Listen in:
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (when Jesus comes back to earth) will not come until
Good grief! What a sentence. Don't you ever take a breath? I strongly disagree with your opinion. v.1 is about "the coming of the Lord", which will clearly occur on a specific DATE. So "that day" absolutely does refer to "the coming of the Lord".
Your confusion is likely due to your refusal to accept that the singular resurrection of all believers will be at the Second Advent, which is what Paul was saying in 2 Thess 2:1. In v.2, Paul was noting the congregation's confusion over THAT coming. They had been erroneously told that the Lord had already come and they missed it.
Your "assessment" isn't close to the reality.
Of course it is. But you just don't want to accept the truth. It refutes your pre-trib opinion.
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FreeGrace2 said:
Are you trying to be dense. Of course the 2W went back up to heaven. Why would you think I don't think they did?
Why don't you just READ what I wrote, which I included above. That's what I said. You can do with it what you want. I don't care.
You need to figure out how to form sentences that are far easier to follow and not so convoluted. Most people just check out when they get to such sentences as you create. And take a breath.
What does Heb 9:27 say? That will tell you who the 2W are. You should be able to figure it out from there.
If you're still having trouble figuring it out, let me know.
When do you?
I NEVER said that and you know it if you have any reading and comprehension skills. So stop with the dishonesty.
Are you trying to be dense. Of course the 2W went back up to heaven. Why would you think I don't think they did?
Why don't you just READ what I wrote, which I included above. That's what I said. You can do with it what you want. I don't care.
You need to figure out how to form sentences that are far easier to follow and not so convoluted. Most people just check out when they get to such sentences as you create. And take a breath.
What does Heb 9:27 say? That will tell you who the 2W are. You should be able to figure it out from there.
If you're still having trouble figuring it out, let me know.
When do you?
I NEVER said that and you know it if you have any reading and comprehension skills. So stop with the dishonesty.
For some reason, I keep missing seeing some of these posts...
It appears you've missed the point I'd made in that post.
...and, besides that, in my viewpoint Christ only will "RETURN" ONCE, that is "to the earth," FOR the earthly Millennial Kingdom age, which is what the two references using "return" speak of:
--Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 (parallel with Matthew 24:42-51), "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (as an already-wed Bridegroom, not TO BE wed to those persons [saints / blessed] in that text, at that point)... THEN "the meal [G347]" (aka the earthly MK age or at least its inauguration);
--Luke 18:12,15,17,19 (parallel Matt25:1-13) "return"... when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with, "have thou authority over 10 cities" (note: "cities" are on the earth) and "likewise... be thou also over 5 cities"
The texts actually say that "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" and "our episynagoges UNTO HIM" indeed takes place UP OFF OF THE EARTH; and neither passage indicates that He continues coming on down to the earth at that point in time. 2Th2 especially talks about many other points in time, including the point when the man of sin will be "sitting in the temple of God, declaring..." but I think you would agree that that is not occurring at the point in time of Christ's "Second Coming to the earth"... so Paul is covering A SPANS of time... the disagreement comes as to what all is included in that spans of time he's covering, and as I've put in past threads, I have biblical explanation as to what spans that actually is and covers, just like all the other passages touching on this Subject do / agree.
yes, to commence "the TIMES OF" (which "TIMES OF" includes Israel again being called by God "My people, Israel"--which takes place BEFORE His Second Coming TO THE EARTH FOR their promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom)
It appears you've missed the point I'd made in that post.
...and, besides that, in my viewpoint Christ only will "RETURN" ONCE, that is "to the earth," FOR the earthly Millennial Kingdom age, which is what the two references using "return" speak of:
--Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 (parallel with Matthew 24:42-51), "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (as an already-wed Bridegroom, not TO BE wed to those persons [saints / blessed] in that text, at that point)... THEN "the meal [G347]" (aka the earthly MK age or at least its inauguration);
--Luke 18:12,15,17,19 (parallel Matt25:1-13) "return"... when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with, "have thou authority over 10 cities" (note: "cities" are on the earth) and "likewise... be thou also over 5 cities"
The texts actually say that "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" and "our episynagoges UNTO HIM" indeed takes place UP OFF OF THE EARTH; and neither passage indicates that He continues coming on down to the earth at that point in time. 2Th2 especially talks about many other points in time, including the point when the man of sin will be "sitting in the temple of God, declaring..." but I think you would agree that that is not occurring at the point in time of Christ's "Second Coming to the earth"... so Paul is covering A SPANS of time... the disagreement comes as to what all is included in that spans of time he's covering, and as I've put in past threads, I have biblical explanation as to what spans that actually is and covers, just like all the other passages touching on this Subject do / agree.
yes, to commence "the TIMES OF" (which "TIMES OF" includes Israel again being called by God "My people, Israel"--which takes place BEFORE His Second Coming TO THE EARTH FOR their promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom)
the phrase "that day" being in italics, is not actually expressed in the Greek text (v.3a), as you know;
the "because if NOT shall have come" the "NOT" refers to that which was being purported "IS [present / already here]" in the false claim of v.2 (re: "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]" which means, already here and in play at some point of time in past with results continuing on into the present... not about Christ Himself and His Personal presence, whether in the air like v.1 refers to, or on the earth--the "false claim" in v.2 had NOTHING TO DO with that idea, in any sense!)
the "because if NOT shall have come" the "NOT" refers to that which was being purported "IS [present / already here]" in the false claim of v.2 (re: "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]" which means, already here and in play at some point of time in past with results continuing on into the present... not about Christ Himself and His Personal presence, whether in the air like v.1 refers to, or on the earth--the "false claim" in v.2 had NOTHING TO DO with that idea, in any sense!)
So you believe the Apostle Paul was in error when he wrote:
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers,
2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come."
Is that like a 24 hour day or something? I think not.....
Zec 2:11
And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
Zec 3:10
In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
Zec 9:16
And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.
Zec 11:11
And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
Zec 12:3
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zec 12:4
In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
Zec 12:6
In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Zec 12:8
In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:11
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Zec 13:1
In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Zec 13:2
And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
Zec 13:4
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
Zec 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:6
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:8
And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec 14:9
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:13
And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
Zec 14:20
In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Zec 14:21
Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
Zec 2:11
And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.
And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
No, I do not believe Paul was in error.
I believe that your incorrect definition of "the day of the Lord" (being alleged in the false claim that it "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE") is in error; because Paul had already stated in his first epistle that the Thessalonians "know perfectly"... and goes on to say that it ARRIVES as the INITIAL "birth pang [singular]" that COMES UPON a woman... which is not what will be taking place (arriving) at the 24-day of Christ's Return to the earth Matt24:29-31 / Rev19; nor would that comport with, say, Amos 5:18-19's "Woe unto you that DESIRE the day of the Lord" (why not[!!], if that's speaking of His Personal presence to "snatch" us??), and says, "the day of the Lord is darkness, and NO LIGHT IN it" (not referring to merely "a singular 24-hr day" kind of "day"-i.e. the "day" of His Return to the earth, but rather the "IN THE NIGHT" TIME PERIOD [not a moment in time])
I believe that your incorrect definition of "the day of the Lord" (being alleged in the false claim that it "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE") is in error; because Paul had already stated in his first epistle that the Thessalonians "know perfectly"... and goes on to say that it ARRIVES as the INITIAL "birth pang [singular]" that COMES UPON a woman... which is not what will be taking place (arriving) at the 24-day of Christ's Return to the earth Matt24:29-31 / Rev19; nor would that comport with, say, Amos 5:18-19's "Woe unto you that DESIRE the day of the Lord" (why not[!!], if that's speaking of His Personal presence to "snatch" us??), and says, "the day of the Lord is darkness, and NO LIGHT IN it" (not referring to merely "a singular 24-hr day" kind of "day"-i.e. the "day" of His Return to the earth, but rather the "IN THE NIGHT" TIME PERIOD [not a moment in time])
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Pre-trib rapture teaches 'LEFT BEHIND' alternatives that oppose the Truth.
Please read again (slowly)
a.) "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him,
b.) we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us
c.) alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come."
Please read again (slowly)
a.) "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him,
b.) we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us
c.) alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come."
Correct.
But DavidTree isn't thinking that Paul is talking to them about the "false claim" about "the DOTL" as being the tribulation period (or the time period when the "man of sin" does ALL he is slated to DO--over SOME TIME);
Instead, DT thinks "the DOTL" refers to Christ's Second Coming presence (and that Paul is saying don't freak out if anyone tries to tell you that THAT / HE is present... and then DT adds a few MORE words to that, which the text itself does not even allude to, in the content of the "false claim" of v.2, which is only "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT"... the false claimants were not going further to state "thus you MISSED something [important]"--there is no hint whatsoever in the text that any "false claimants" even would be AWARE of the v.1 Subject ["our Rapture"] )
But DavidTree isn't thinking that Paul is talking to them about the "false claim" about "the DOTL" as being the tribulation period (or the time period when the "man of sin" does ALL he is slated to DO--over SOME TIME);
Instead, DT thinks "the DOTL" refers to Christ's Second Coming presence (and that Paul is saying don't freak out if anyone tries to tell you that THAT / HE is present... and then DT adds a few MORE words to that, which the text itself does not even allude to, in the content of the "false claim" of v.2, which is only "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT"... the false claimants were not going further to state "thus you MISSED something [important]"--there is no hint whatsoever in the text that any "false claimants" even would be AWARE of the v.1 Subject ["our Rapture"] )
TheDivineWatermark's reasoning is convoluted and goes against the plain sense of the text. There is certainly nothing internally to interpret these things as separate things----the of Christ, the coming of our Lord Jesus and our gathering unto Him, and 'that day' in the previous chapter which tells of Christ's appearing executing vengence on them that know not God and being glorified in them that believe.
A straightforward reading of the passage would lead us to believe this. One has to bring something from outside of the passage--- assuming the pretrib theory-- in and try to redefine what Paul is talking about to get that conclusion. It doesn't make sense for one trying to read the passage for the same sense.
If there were actual scriptures that teach pre-trib instead of some vague 'mosaic' (to borrow @cv5's term) of ideas interpreted from different verses, I might see a motivation for entertaining a strained interpretation of the text like this. But without solid support from scripture, why should we even consider it?
A straightforward reading of the passage would lead us to believe this. One has to bring something from outside of the passage--- assuming the pretrib theory-- in and try to redefine what Paul is talking about to get that conclusion. It doesn't make sense for one trying to read the passage for the same sense.
If there were actual scriptures that teach pre-trib instead of some vague 'mosaic' (to borrow @cv5's term) of ideas interpreted from different verses, I might see a motivation for entertaining a strained interpretation of the text like this. But without solid support from scripture, why should we even consider it?
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OK bro....I am ready to sit down and hear your story about who you think the 24 Elders are....
I am ready to hear your story. Like I said, I'm not going to play your 'riddle me this' thing. If you think a passage teaches pretrib, don't expect me to guess what you imagine is in the story.
Clever gifs are no more evidence for pretrib than puffery and boasts about how great this relatively new eschatological system is.
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This is very easy to academically digest:
Please read again (slowly)
a.) "Now concerning the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, = rapture
b.) we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us
c.) alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come." = SEE 1 Thessalonians 1:10
d.) that day will not come until
e.) the falling away and the man of sin is revealed
f.) who the LORD will destroy at the brightness of His Coming
This is basic grade school level grammar.
Please read again (slowly)
a.) "Now concerning the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, = rapture
b.) we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us
c.) alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come." = SEE 1 Thessalonians 1:10
d.) that day will not come until
e.) the falling away and the man of sin is revealed
f.) who the LORD will destroy at the brightness of His Coming
This is basic grade school level grammar.
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