Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Of course it is. And it is quite obviously clear about a number of things that seem to have flown right over your head.

1. There will be one resurrection of the saved, all at the same time. Dan 12:2, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15
2. That single resurrection will include all believers of all time. 1 Cor 15:23
3. That single resurrection will be when Jesus Christ returns to earth to end the Tribulation and reign in His Millennial kingdom. 2 Thess 2:1-3, Rev 20:4-6

Simple as 1-2-3.

And I've given the clear proof of these 3 facts.

What do you have for support? Nothing but a bunch of convoluted, impossible to follow explanations of verses that say nothing clearly about Jesus taking glorified believers back to heaven.

If you really think that these 3 facts, with clear biblical evidence, is just an attempt at using a blender to chew up the Bible, you have deeper problems than just your eschatology.

In fact, it is your convoluted explanations that appear to have come from your own blender.

Yep, just the kind of response when refuted. Nothing to say. So you whistle as if you didn't see anything.

 

[DavidTree]

The church is mentioned in the book of Revelation for sure, as you know I believe the bride is removed before the tribulation period, my challenge to you was to show me where bouts in the tribulation period, so you need to be more specific so I may see it.

Since the Body of Christ, His Saints, are clearly mentioned throughout Revelation from chapter 1 thru chapter 22,
it is your responsibility to bring forth where exactly they are raptured in Revelation.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWater mark will go to great lengths to put together an argument for how he can view II Thessalonians 1 as an extended period of time.

... just like chapter two (esp. vv.3b-11,[12]) is also covering an [/the same] extended period of time...



[chk out vv.9,10,11,[12] just for one small example--that's during a "period of time"]





And note (for the readers), I wasn't saying that ALL of chpt one is speaking of the tribulation "period" (a time period), only vv.7-8;
whereas vv.9-10a occur at His Second Coming to the earth point in time (same point in time that 2Th2:8b occurs)

 

[DavidTree]

... just like chapter two is also covering an [/the same] extended period of time...





And note (for the readers), I wasn't saying that ALL of chpt one is speaking of the tribulation "period" (a time period), only vv.7-8;
whereas vv.9-10a occur at His Second Coming to the earth point in time (same point in time that 2Th2:8b occurs)

The Apostle Paul's prophetic instructions on the Second Coming of Christ, which is our LORD's commandment, begins in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 with precise ordered events given in 4:13-18.

Because of the lie of 'pre-trib rapture' and 'left behind', the Holy Spirit instructs the Apostle Paul to write the second letter to the Thessalonian Saints whereby he begins the Second Coming of Christ in chapter 1 verses 5-10 which is directly corresponding to chapter 2 verses 1-8.

pre-trib rapture is a false teaching, a false prophecy and is a complete lie AND "no lie is of the Truth" - 1 John chapter 2

 

[presidente]

... just like chapter two (esp. vv.3b-11,[12]) is also covering an [/the same] extended period of time...

[chk out vv.9,10,11,[12] just for one small example--that's during a "period of time"]


And note (for the readers), I wasn't saying that ALL of chpt one is speaking of the tribulation "period" (a time period), only vv.7-8;
whereas vv.9-10a occur at His Second Coming to the earth point in time (same point in time that 2Th2:8b occurs)

That's really convenient. 'Appearing' lasting for seven years...not just a 'day'. Can you show any other examples of another 'appearing' in Greek that lasts a long time.

You just go against the plain sense of the text and arbitrarily say these verses refer to a long period of time. If Jesus' appearing takes 7 years, then do people see him in the sky for 7 years? If the marriage supper of the Lamb were going on a the end of that.

Could you share with us the Biblical reason for having to interpret the passage in such a bizarre way? You spend a lot of time trying to make passages fit with pre-trib. What passages actually teach pre-trib to justify all this strained interpretation of others passages to make it fit?

Why is the pretrib rapture absent from passages like Matthew 24, which lays out a series of events, but does include the coming of Christ, which Christ encourages His own disciples to be ready for? Why doesn't Revelation mention a pre-trib rapture? Why is it that you have to take this theory which is external to the text and take one verse about the coming of the Lord and make it about pre-trib and another and make it about another second coming or else make the coming of the Lord a seven year event like it is? Can you show us any scriptures where pre-trib is taught, and not 'imported in' as an assumption through which to interpret a passage?

If you have to interpret passages this way to make them fit with pre-trib, why be a pre-tribber? I don't get the appeal. Is it more comfortable than the idea of possibly having to suffer for Jesus through the tribulation?

 

[presidente]

Well there is more than two stages for the resurrection of the Just I mean the Lord was the first stage or does He not count?

Where do you get.... from scripture... that there will be two stages of the resurrection of the just-- one before the tribulation and one after? If you don't have any scripture that shows that, why bring that foreign idea in as a grid through which to interpret passages? Why doesn't Jesus mention the pre-trib rapture while talking about the end of the age in Matthew 24? Why doesn't it show up in the book of Revelation? Why doesn't Paul mention it? Can you show a scripture that actually teaches it?

Interpreters have to assume pre-trib and then say this coming refers to the pre-trib coming and this one refers to the post-trib coming, or else say the coming of the Lord lasts for years and years.

Someone could make up some extrabiblical ideas-- like being resurrected first with bodies being made out of chocolate before the eternal resurrection, or aliens being involved in the resurrection, or something like that, assume that's true and say this verse goes with the chocolate resurrection, and this verse goes with the eternal one. Anyone could bring in some extrabiblical idea out of scripture and argue for something weird. Where do we see scripture that teaches a pre-trib resurrection in the first place to justify all this unnatural interpretation of other passages?

I have already attempted to answer this point and I gave Rev 20:4 as the proof text as it is clearly defining the tribulation saints in this verse, it is a nice round peg that fits nicely into my round hole, post trib try and say rev 20:4 is referring to all the saints over all time, to fit into there one resurection plus the Lords which is two resurrections of course, which is too big a pill for me too swallow, I would really need a big massive hammer to force that square peg into the round hole.

It says that he saw certain saints who fit certain characteristics rise. But you haven't worshipped the beast's image have you? Did Peter or Paul? The verse doesn't exclude those who were not literally beheaded from being resurrected. The scriptures speak of one resurrection of Christ's after Christ. I Corinthians 15 says they that are Christ's shall be made alive 'at His coming.' It does not say part will be made alive 7 years before His coming and the rest at His coming.

Ok a challenge for you my friend, give me one example where the church is mentioned in the tribulation period?

This wasn't addressed directly at me, but I'd like to comment. Can you show me one example where John uses 'church' for more than one local congregation? I read a book which showed that early on Paul used 'church' for the local assembly, but later came to use it for the church 'throughout time and space'-- as the author put it, which he preferred to 'church universal.'

But Paul uses 'church' to refer to believers who will be here when Jesus returns, giving the church rest and executing judgment on them that know not God. He also writes, in II Thessalonians 2, in the man of sin passage, that that wicked shall be destroyed by 'the brightness of His coming.' Something else that happens at Jesus coming according to I Thessalonians 1 is the rapture. So how is that consistent with pre-trib?

I say the church is not here so show me the Church? and it would give me pause to consider, if you cant find an example, hopefully the argument from silence which would collaborate pre trib will give you pause to reconsider! Im assuming your post trib premil.

No, there is a good reason to switch from 'assembly' to refer to local city assemblies to saying 'saints' for believers in various locations far away from each other. The silence of scripture on the idea of their being a pre-trib rapture is much weightier. Reading in a whole 'nother coming of Christ, a whole separate resurrection...that needs justification. Where does the scripture teach it?

Also notice the day of judgment is for all those on the whole earth, yet there is a hint of escape for some.

 

[presidente]

The church is mentioned in the book of Revelation for sure, as you know I believe the bride is removed before the tribulation period, my challenge to you was to show me where bouts in the tribulation period, so you need to be more specific so I may see it.

Can you show us where, in the book of Revelation or elsewhere, it shows, teaches, or says the church will be raptured before the tribulation? Can you show where the Bible teaches this extra resurrection of the dead? Paul teaches that they that are Christ's shall be made alive at His coming. Can you show where most will be resurrected seven years before His coming?


I Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming
(NKJV)

 

[cv5]

What I was referring to is more along the lines of 'confusion' and 'self-doubt' rather than 'fear'...

Regardless.....their discomfiture had an object. What was it?

 

[cv5]

that there will be two stages of the resurrection of the just-- one before the tribulation and one after?

You are getting warm. Keep at it bro....

 

[cv5]

Can you show us where, in the book of Revelation or elsewhere, it shows, teaches, or says the church will be raptured before the tribulation? Can you show where the Bible teaches this extra resurrection of the dead? Paul teaches that they that are Christ's shall be made alive at His coming. Can you show where most will be resurrected seven years before His coming?


I Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming
(NKJV)

Riddle me this: Will there be redeemed saints during the millennium and YET ANOTHER resurrection to GLORY after the millennium, as PART of the first resurrection?

Right now we have a raptured Church in heaven (right alongside the Cherubim and angels), 2 witnesses resurrected TAKEN to heaven, trib saints resurrected around the throne, OT saints resurrected after the trib per Dan 12, trib surviving Israelites, trib surviving gentile believers, sheep nation survivors.

Here are the newly resurrected trib saints, already resurrected 24 Elders and 4 cherubim, and a multitude of angels....all in one location, all at one point in time. Are they located in heaven? On the earth? Both?

Your simple Simon views just don't wash bro....

Rev 7:9 (UNIQUE GROUP - TRIB SAINTS)
After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands.

Rev 7:10
And they were shouting with a great roar,
“Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne
and from the Lamb!”

Rev 7:11
And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living beings. And they fell before the throne with their faces to the ground and worshiped God.

Rev 7:12
They sang,
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom
and thanksgiving and honor
and power and strength belong to our God
forever and ever! Amen.”

Rev 7:13
Then one of the twenty-four elders (UNIQUE GROUP - THE GLORIFIED CHURCH) asked me, “Who are these who are clothed in white? Where did they come from?”

Rev 7:14
And I said to him, “Sir, you are the one who knows.”
Then he said to me, “These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.

Rev 7:15
“That is why they stand in front of God’s throne
and serve him day and night in his Temple.
And he who sits on the throne
will give them shelter.

Rev 7:16
They will never again be hungry or thirsty;
they will never be scorched by the heat of the sun.


Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[FreeGrace2]

presidente said:
that there will be two stages of the resurrection of the just-- one before the tribulation and one after?

You are getting warm. Keep at it bro....

Except you can't show from Scripture that there will be ANY glorified trip to heaven.

The Bible clearly speaks of resurrection in the singular; never in the plural. Check it out for yourself.

Don't believe me; believe your own eyes.

 

[cv5]

Except you can't show from Scripture that there will be ANY glorified trip to heaven.

The Bible clearly speaks of resurrection in the singular; never in the plural.

If I send you pictures of me in presently Tokyo, there is no doubt that a journey took place. Not complicated bro.....

Rev 4:1
After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

Rev 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Rev 11:12
And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Except you can't show from Scripture that there will be ANY glorified trip to heaven.

The Bible clearly speaks of resurrection in the singular; never in the plural.

If I send you pictures of me in presently Tokyo, there is no doubt that a journey took place. Not complicated bro.....

Are you kidding?? Haven't you heard of photoshop?

But seriously, you don't have ANY pictures/photos/movies/videos/etc of glorified believers being taken to heaven. Which is the evidence that you desperately need to prove your claims.

Rev 4:1
After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

This isn't a glorified rapture trip to heaven.

Rev 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

No "beast" will be glorified and raptured to heaven.

Rev 11:12
And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

The 2 witnesses? Where do you read that they received glorified bodies? You don't. So you have to presume they did.

And, IF IF IF the 2W were resurrected with glorified bodies, that would contradict 1 Cor 15:23.

This is the resurrection of the saved:
But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Jesus was the FIRST human to receive a glorified body.
THEN, "those who belong to Him", a reference to ALL believers in the human race throughout all of history, will be resurrected with a glorified body "when He comes", an obvious reference to the Second Advent.

Once again, you have proved nothing about a glorified trip to heaven. Because there aren't any.

 

[cv5]

FreeGrace2 said:
Except you can't show from Scripture that there will be ANY glorified trip to heaven.

The Bible clearly speaks of resurrection in the singular; never in the plural.

Are you kidding?? Haven't you heard of photoshop?

But seriously, you don't have ANY pictures/photos/movies/videos/etc of glorified believers being taken to heaven. Which is the evidence that you desperately need to prove your claims.


This isn't a glorified rapture trip to heaven.


No "beast" will be glorified and raptured to heaven.


The 2 witnesses? Where do you read that they received glorified bodies? You don't. So you have to presume they did.

And, IF IF IF the 2W were resurrected with glorified bodies, that would contradict 1 Cor 15:23.

This is the resurrection of the saved:
But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Jesus was the FIRST human to receive a glorified body.
THEN, "those who belong to Him", a reference to ALL believers in the human race throughout all of history, will be resurrected with a glorified body "when He comes", an obvious reference to the Second Advent.

Once again, you have proved nothing about a glorified trip to heaven. Because there aren't any.

All of that sweating and straining is gonna give you a hernia bro.....

But yea.....what you propose is patently absurd.

 

[presidente]

You are getting warm. Keep at it bro....

Again, where is there any scripture at all to back up such a theory. What you responded to was, "that there will be two stages of the resurrection of the just-- one before the tribulation and one after? "

Back it up with scripture. Emojis, wisecracks, and gifs aren't scripture.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

If I send you pictures of me in presently Tokyo, there is no doubt that a journey took place. Not complicated bro.....

Rev 4:1
After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

Rev 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Rev 11:12
And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

Rev 4 John witnessed a scene in heaven. Whether by vision or sojourn.
Rev 5 The Lamb is at the centre of the throne in heaven surrounded by 4 beasts & 24 elders.
Rev 11 Two witnesses will be killed & raised from the dead during the tribulation.

None of these things indicate a PTR. Things happen in heaven. Heaven is populated.

 

[presidente]

Right now we have a raptured Church in heaven (right alongside the Cherubim and angels), 2 witnesses resurrected TAKEN to heaven, trib saints resurrected around the throne, OT saints resurrected after the trib per Dan 12, trib surviving Israelites, trib surviving gentile believers, sheep nation survivors.

So unless you are posting from heaven, are you saying you missed the rapture? I didn't see any airplanes falling out of the sky?

Here are the newly resurrected trib saints, already resurrected 24 Elders and 4 cherubim, and a multitude of angels....all in one location, all at one point in time. Are they located in heaven? On the earth? Both?

John wrote this stuff in the first century. Why do you set this some time between the beginning and end of the tribulation? Do you think the elders have a conscious memory of meeting John, or was this a vision John saw? Characters in visions can be representations of people or concepts.

Is this your strongest evidence for pre-trib? I keep pressing you to present some actual evidence? Is this it?

Your simple Simon views just don't wash bro....

I would imagine Simple Simon just believes whatever stuff he's been told without thinking it through. Like if someone throws an extra second coming into his eschatology, he accepts it because that is what he has been told.

Rev 7:9 (UNIQUE GROUP - TRIB SAINTS)
After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands.

Rev 7:10
And they were shouting with a great roar,
“Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne
and from the Lamb!”

Rev 7:11
And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living beings. And they fell before the throne with their faces to the ground and worshiped God.

Rev 7:12
They sang,
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom
and thanksgiving and honor
and power and strength belong to our God
forever and ever! Amen.”

Rev 7:13
Then one of the twenty-four elders (UNIQUE GROUP - THE GLORIFIED CHURCH) asked me, “Who are these who are clothed in white? Where did they come from?”

Rev 7:14
And I said to him, “Sir, you are the one who knows.”
Then he said to me, “These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.

Don't use bad translations for fine doctrinal points. Actual 'died in the great tribulation' does some bad damage to your pre-trib position on this issue, but real translation say 'come out of.' The 'translation' is doing the interpreting here. What version are you using.


Rev 7:15
“That is why they stand in front of God’s throne
and serve him day and night in his Temple.
And he who sits on the throne
will give them shelter.

Rev 7:16
They will never again be hungry or thirsty;
they will never be scorched by the heat of the sun.


Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.[/QUOTE]

I can't read your mind. If you think there is some evidence for pre-trib here, tell it. The Bible already teaches that the dead are made alive at the Lord's coming, so we should expect the saints during the tribulation to be resurrected at the resurrection of the dead. None of this is evidence that Jesus comes back over and over again.

Think about it. If you did not assume pretrib in the first place, would you see this as any kind of evidence for pretrib? That's the problem. Where is the scripture or scriptures that teaches pretrib. I keep asking and you haven't shown me. Sure, you can try to plug in verses here and there to make a 'mosaic' that fits with pre-trib. But the pre-trib rapture is assumed. It is a theory external to scripture brought into interpretation, and verses are interpreted around it.

If you can show some scripture that actually indicates there is a pre-trib rapture and resurrection event, then I might consider your interpretations.

One could claim everyone is going to be given a chocolate bar a some point around the resurrection and rapture event and say, "This verse occurs before the dispensation of chocolate bars." and "This verse is set after the dispensation of chocolate bars." One could have a beautiful mosaic of Biblical interpretations about the chocolate bar dispensation... a spreadsheet dedicated to chocolate bar eschatology. The problem is there is no scripture teaching the dispensation of chocolate bars, so it would just be me arbitrarily reading chocolate bar dispensations into the text. How is that different from pre-trib, except that pre-trib messes up eschatological understanding as presented in scripture and chocolate bars are just a silly add-on.

 

[cv5]

Rev 4 John witnessed a scene in heaven. Whether by vision or sojourn.
Rev 5 The Lamb is at the centre of the throne in heaven surrounded by 4 beasts & 24 elders.
Rev 11 Two witnesses will be killed & raised from the dead during the tribulation.

None of these things indicate a PTR. Things happen in heaven. Heaven is populated.

With trib saints? That was my question sis.....

 

[cv5]

So unless you are posting from heaven, are you saying you missed the rapture? I didn't see any airplanes falling out of the sky?




John wrote this stuff in the first century. Why do you set this some time between the beginning and end of the tribulation? Do you think the elders have a conscious memory of meeting John, or was this a vision John saw? Characters in visions can be representations of people or concepts.

Is this your strongest evidence for pre-trib? I keep pressing you to present some actual evidence? Is this it?



I would imagine Simple Simon just believes whatever stuff he's been told without thinking it through. Like if someone throws an extra second coming into his eschatology, he accepts it because that is what he has been told.



Don't use bad translations for fine doctrinal points. Actual 'died in the great tribulation' does some bad damage to your pre-trib position on this issue, but real translation say 'come out of.' The 'translation' is doing the interpreting here. What version are you using.


Rev 7:15
“That is why they stand in front of God’s throne
and serve him day and night in his Temple.
And he who sits on the throne
will give them shelter.

Rev 7:16
They will never again be hungry or thirsty;
they will never be scorched by the heat of the sun.


Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So you are saying trib saints who died don't get resurrected (millions and millions of them - what in the world happens to them anyways)? And that trib saints group in Rev 7 are STILL LIVING survivors of the GT?

Doesn't make sense to me bro.....

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

With trib saints? That was my question sis.....

You mean the multitude seen in Chapter 7 ?