Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[cv5]

Again, where is there any scripture at all to back up such a theory. What you responded to was, "that there will be two stages of the resurrection of the just-- one before the tribulation and one after? "

Back it up with scripture. Emojis, wisecracks, and gifs aren't scripture.

I'm just glad that I have not utterly ignored Revelation Chapters 1 thru 5, ch 7, ch 19 & ch 20.....etc etc.
Along with all of their respective locations, identities, activities, and so on and so forth.

Yep....feeling pretty good about my eschatology bro.....

Solid.

 

[cv5]

So the post-tribbers are preparing for their blessed hope by stockpiling beans rice and ammo?
Seems that way.....

 

[cv5]

So you are saying trib saints who died don't get resurrected (millions and millions of them - what in the world happens to them anyways)? And that trib saints group in Rev 7 are STILL LIVING survivors of the GT?

Doesn't make sense to me bro.....

@presidente said"
"Don't use bad translations for fine doctrinal points. Actual 'died in the great tribulation' does some bad damage to your pre-trib position on this issue, but real translation say 'come out of.' The 'translation' is doing the interpreting here. What version are you using. "

Congrats bro. Only you could have created a brand-new category of "Schrödinger cat" saints.
We don't know if they are dead or alive, in heaven or on earth.

Good job buddy.....

 

[cv5]

You mean the multitude seen in Chapter 7 ?

Of course. This group once again infallibly identified here. You just cannot be more precise than this....

Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

That's really convenient. 'Appearing' lasting for seven years...not just a 'day'. Can you show any other examples of another 'appearing' in Greek that lasts a long time.

As far as 2Th1:7 goes, it says, "[rest / repose with us] IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with [/accompanied-with] His mighty angels in flaming fire [see same language in Lam2:3-4] INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those that..." (the "inflicting vengeance on those that" is not a split-second occurrence, just as "God shall send to them strong delusion [/ a working of delusion] SO THAT they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI"--that's not involving merely 3.5-seconds-or-less];

...whereas 2Th2:8b says (regarding Him--at His Second Coming to the earth point in time), "[whom the Lord shall destroy] by the MANIFESTATION OF the presence / parousia of Him [/ His presence / parousia]"; "the MANIFESTATION OF the presence / parousia of Him" is distinct from the "presence / parousia of Him" at the "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" event (v.1), which involves no one else but us / the Church which is His body, and Him ("the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR"--and "so shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord"... by means of that "snatch" thing)... no one else participating!

(Just like, in Numbers 10:4, when just ONE of the two trumpets would sound [out of the various patterns those two trumpets could be sounded, depending on "purpose"], then "the LEADERS [H5387 - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5387.htm "one lifted up...chief, prince" (see "hath CHOSEN you firstfruit" 2Th2:13--"hath chosen - G138 [heilato / haireo]" (related to G142)] the HEADS [H7218 - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7218.htm "of many applications, of place, time, and RANK"] then shall gather UNTO YOU [you/Moses] of the divisions of Israel" https://biblehub.com/text/numbers/10-4.htm , no one else participating [coz there's a certain "purpose" involved];
And in chpt 1 (1:1,3-5 and following) of Numbers, we see the sets of names, involving these "heads", with the pairing of persons, totaling TWENTY-FOUR






Recall, "[The] REVELATION of Jesus Christ THAT GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHOW UNTO..." and that "SHOW [unto]" begins in 4:1 (it pertains to "the things which must take place AFTER THESE [THINGS]" [after "the things WHICH ARE" of chpts 2-3]... and are the "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS" [like also the "vengeance" in Lk18:8 and the "crush" of Rom16:20] referring to the 7-yr Tribulation period which will BEGIN to unfold upon the earth upon the opening of SEAL #1, aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [1Th5:1-3]" of "the BEGINNING of birth pangS" Jesus had spoken of in His Olivet Discourse, that unfold OVER SOME TIME, and which LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age (the "birth pang / pangs" do not COMMENCE at that point, see)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Rev 4 John witnessed a scene in heaven. Whether by vision or sojourn.
Rev 5 The Lamb is at the centre of the throne in heaven surrounded by 4 beasts & 24 elders.
Rev 11 Two witnesses will be killed & raised from the dead during the tribulation.

None of these things indicate a PTR. Things happen in heaven. Heaven is populated.

But no people are wearing "stephanous / CROWNS" yet though (nor "sitting on thrones" yet); that only comes about FOLLOWING the "BEMA" rewards thing, which hasn't yet taken place.


Chpts 4-5 are a change in scenery [setting]... more like a courtroom-setting.



[4:3 describes the first and the last gemstones that were on "the breastpiece of judgment"... etc]

 

[presidente]

So you are saying trib saints who died don't get resurrected (millions and millions of them - what in the world happens to them anyways)? And that trib saints group in Rev 7 are STILL LIVING survivors of the GT?

Doesn't make sense to me bro.....

No. Read the book. Look up the 'first resurrection' in Revelation 20.

How you do you get that out of what I posted?

What I object to is saying there is a resurrection that is not specified in the Bible and that some of the resurrection verses, but not others, refer to this extra resurrection.

 

[presidente]

So the post-tribbers are preparing for their blessed hope by stockpiling beans rice and ammo?
Seems that way.....

I don't know about that, but eschatology aside, they say there is a food shortage right now. The global supply chain is out of whack. The US probably looks like a pretty good place to live if global shipping shut down due to a war, but even so, it is good to have some food goods on hand. I've got bags of rice a bag of soybeans, and some other foodstuffs, including part of a large bag of soybeans and some other beans. But it isn't really driven by eschatology.

 

[presidente]

@presidente said"
"Don't use bad translations for fine doctrinal points. Actual 'died in the great tribulation' does some bad damage to your pre-trib position on this issue, but real translation say 'come out of.' The 'translation' is doing the interpreting here. What version are you using. "

Congrats bro. Only you could have created a brand-new category of "Schrödinger cat" saints.
We don't know if they are dead or alive, in heaven or on earth.

Good job buddy.....

If you have some specific arguments for pre-trib, please share them. It sounds like you have some flimsy iffy arguments for trying to come up with an extra resurrection that isn't specified in scripture.

Saying Jesus is going to come back more than once or that there is an extra resurrection is a pretty big deal. Paul warned against babblers who said the resurrection had already occurred, with probably a reference to Korah's rebellion, and a warning to vessels of honor to purge themselves of the vessels of dishonor. Pre-trib is not exactly the same thing... and that situation is probably closer to full preterism than other eschatologial systems. But making up extra resurrections of the dead is something you need to have very solid evidence for, not this kind of loose speculation.

But if you want to make your case, do so. Don't just mention books or chapters. I don't want to guess what significance you think a chapter has for your theory.

 

[presidente]

But no people are wearing "stephanous / CROWNS" yet though (nor "sitting on thrones" yet); that only comes about FOLLOWING the "BEMA" rewards thing, which hasn't yet taken place.


Chpts 4-5 are a change in scenery [setting]... more like a courtroom-setting.



[4:3 describes the first and the last gemstones that were on "the breastpiece of judgment"... etc]

Where does the Bible say there will be no crowns in heaven until after the judgment at the bema seat?

Something else to keep in mind is that this is imagery that tells a picture. If elders will receive a crown at the second coming or later and John sees a vision in 90 AD, or whenever, of elders with crowns, there is no contradiction.

You still have the 'problem' that he sees the crowns in 90 AD and the rapture hasn't taken place in either of our eschatological systems. How could John see those crowns in 90 AD if they won't be given until some time in the future? Well, visions portray some truths. They aren't strictly literal. You don't think the beast is a literal beast do you? Was Nebuchadnezzer physically a head of gold?

 

[GaryA]

Not exactly, no, "the day of the Lord" is a very lengthy earthly-located time period which commences with the initial "birth pang [1Th5:1-3]" of many more "birth pangS" [Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11 and more] which will follow on from that initial "birth pang [1Th5:1-3... the ARRIVAL of the earthly-located TIME PERIOD]"...

(the DOTL continues on clear to the end of the MK age, but the false claim wasn't concerning the END of it, but the [supposed] fact that it had already started "at a specific point of time in past (.) with results CONTINUING ON into the present (--->)" ['perfect tense indicative']);
...referring to the "JUDGMENTs" ("DARK" / "DARKNESS" / "IN THE NIGHT" aspect OF it, i.e. commonly called the Tribulation Period, which would be a VERY REASONABLE thing for them to be "shaken in mind" about, as if the false claim were "true," BECAUSE of their present very negative "persecutions and tribulations" they were at that time ENDURing, per what Paul says earlier in this SAME CONTEXT: 2Th1:4




[the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect (i.e. the Trib yrs), which is what that whole entire time period starts with, is when the "LAMPS LIT" takes place; The "DOTL" is entirely earthly located, whereas "the day of Christ / our Lord Jesus Christ [etc]" is when WE will be UP THERE *WITH HIM* ("BEMA" rewards, etc) and it runs CONCURRENTLY with the "DARK / DARKNESS / IN THE NIGHT / NO LIGHT IN IT" part of "the DOTL" (aka the Trib yrs)... the reason it is called "DARK / DARKNESS / IN THE NIGHT" is because EVERY SINGLE "LIGHT BULB" (us!) will have been taken UP OUT OF THE WORLD, for that spans of time; hence, the "LAMPS LIT" thing will commence in that "IN THE NIGHT" time period; We / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY will not be present on the earth DURING that particular "future, specific, LIMITED time period]




So, whereas THAT ^ ("the DOTL") is a "TIME PERIOD" (rather than an "EVENT"), the item in vv1b (by CONTRAST) IS an "EVENT" ("OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" at the "SNATCH" point in time)

You can talk about what you believe the 'day of Christ' is until you are "blue in the face" - and, absolutely none of it will have any effect on the 'grammar of the language' or the main/major significance of it in the context of scripture - which, in this case, is the beginning of it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Except you can't show from Scripture that there will be ANY glorified trip to heaven.

The Bible clearly speaks of resurrection in the singular; never in the plural.

Are you kidding?? Haven't you heard of photoshop?

But seriously, you don't have ANY pictures/photos/movies/videos/etc of glorified believers being taken to heaven. Which is the evidence that you desperately need to prove your claims.

This isn't a glorified rapture trip to heaven.

No "beast" will be glorified and raptured to heaven.

The 2 witnesses? Where do you read that they received glorified bodies? You don't. So you have to presume they did.

And, IF IF IF the 2W were resurrected with glorified bodies, that would contradict 1 Cor 15:23.

This is the resurrection of the saved:
But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Jesus was the FIRST human to receive a glorified body.
THEN, "those who belong to Him", a reference to ALL believers in the human race throughout all of history, will be resurrected with a glorified body "when He comes", an obvious reference to the Second Advent.

Once again, you have proved nothing about a glorified trip to heaven. Because there aren't any.

All of that sweating and straining is gonna give you a hernia bro.....

It was no sweat at all to find the verses that refute all your claims.

But yea.....what you propose is patently absurd.

You're quick to complain, but you NEVER refute anything.

How about taking my post and actually addressing each of the points that you don't agree with, if you are able?

I haven't "proposed" anything. I gave the facts of the Bible, which you keep ignoring.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Rev 4 John witnessed a scene in heaven. Whether by vision or sojourn.
Rev 5 The Lamb is at the centre of the throne in heaven surrounded by 4 beasts & 24 elders.
Rev 11 Two witnesses will be killed & raised from the dead during the tribulation.

None of these things indicate a PTR. Things happen in heaven. Heaven is populated.

It is interesting how the pre-tribbers think MOST of "the church" is still on earth, awating this "rapture" and trip to heaven.

What they fail to realize is that the vast majority of "the church" is already in heaven. What will be left when the resurrection occurs will be a tiny fraction of all "the church", not to mention all the OT saints in heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So the post-tribbers are preparing for their blessed hope by stockpiling beans rice and ammo?
Seems that way.....

If you keep up the face slap, some facts might actually work their way in to your skull.

 

[GaryA]

...whereas 2Th2:8b says (regarding Him--at His Second Coming to the earth point in time), "[whom the Lord shall destroy] by the MANIFESTATION OF the presence / parousia of Him [/ His presence / parousia]"; "the MANIFESTATION OF the presence / parousia of Him" is distinct from the "presence / parousia of Him" at the "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" event (v.1), which involves no one else but us / the Church which is His body, and Him ("the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR"--and "so shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord"... by means of that "snatch" thing)... no one else participating!

You are twisting the 'grammar of the language' to make it say something it does not actually say...

The "MANIFESTATION" you are referring to here is a byproduct of the 'parousia' of the Second Coming of Christ.

The fact that it is not specifically mentioned in another place in scripture that also refers to the 'parousia' of the Second Coming of Christ - does not constitute a separate 'parousia'.

Please stop twisting scripture to make it fit a postulated notion.

You err in your interpretation because you "force-fit" it.

Accept what it actually says and believe it.

 

[GaryA]

Is it more comfortable than the idea of possibly having to suffer for Jesus through the tribulation?

I believe this plays a significant part in the reason why many pre-trib folks "just can't let go of it"...

For others, it may simply be a matter of pride and/or Cognitive Dissonance.

 

[GaryA]

Also notice the day of judgment is for all those on the whole earth, yet there is a hint of escape for some.

Care to give me a hint about the hint you are hinting about here...?

 

[cv5]

As far as 2Th1:7 goes, it says, "[rest / repose with us] IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven

And it won't be in a bunker somewhere eating beans and rice....

 

[cv5]

Paul warned against babblers who said the resurrection had already occurred

Bro....we have been thru this dozens and dozens and dozens of times.

That is NOT what Paul said. It is that nothing more than that voice in your head caused by massive amounts of faulty programming.....

Here.......let me post that verse again for you.

2 Thes 2:1-2
Now we implore you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him, for you not quickly to be shaken in mind, nor to be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as if by us, as that day of the Lord is present.

NASB Lexicon
NASB ©GreekStrong'sOrigin
Nowδὲ
(de)1161: but, and, now, (a connective or adversative particle)a prim. word
we requestἘρωτῶμεν
(erōtōmen)2065: to ask, questionakin to eromai (to ask)
you, brethren,ἀδελφοί
(adelphoi)80: a brotherfrom alpha (as a cop. prefix) and delphus (womb)
with regardὑπὲρ
(uper)5228: over, beyond, fig. on behalf of, for the sake of, concerninga prim. preposition
to the comingπαρουσίας
(parousias)3952: a presence, a comingfrom the pres. part. of pareimi
of our Lordκυρίου
(kuriou)2962: lord, masterfrom kuros (authority)
JesusἸησοῦ
(iēsou)2424: Jesus or Joshua, the name of the Messiah, also three other Isr.of Hebrew origin Yehoshua
ChristΧριστοῦ
(christou)5547: the Anointed One, Messiah, Christfrom chrió
and our gathering togetherἐπισυναγωγῆς
(episunagōgēs)1997: a gathering together, an assemblyfrom episunagó
to Him,

NASB Lexicon
NASB ©GreekStrong'sOrigin
that you not be quicklyταχέως
(tacheōs)5030: quickly, hastilyadverb from tachus
shakenσαλευθῆναι
(saleuthēnai)4531: to agitate, shake, by ext. to cast downfrom salos
from your composureνοὸς
(noos)3563: mind, understanding, reasoncontr. of a prim. word noos (mind)
orμηδὲ
(mēde)3366: but not, and notfrom mé and de
be disturbedθροεῖσθαι
(throeisthai)2360: to be troubledfrom throos (a noise, tumult)
eitherμήτε
(mēte)3383: neither, norfrom mé and te
by a spiritπνεύματος
(pneumatos)4151: wind, spiritfrom pneó
orμήτε
(mēte)3383: neither, norfrom mé and te
a messageλόγου
(logou)3056: a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speechfrom legó
orμήτε
(mēte)3383: neither, norfrom mé and te
a letterἐπιστολῆς
(epistolēs)1992: an epistle, a letterfrom epistelló
as ifὡς
(ōs)5613: as, like as, even as, when, since, as long asadverb from hos,
from us, to the effectὡς
(ōs)5613: as, like as, even as, when, since, as long asadverb from hos,
that the dayἡμέρα
(ēmera)2250: daya prim. word
of the Lordκυρίου
(kuriou)2962: lord, masterfrom kuros (authority)
has come.ἐνέστηκεν
(enestēken)1764: to place in, to be at hand, perf. part. to be present

 

[cv5]

But no people are wearing "stephanous / CROWNS" yet though (nor "sitting on thrones" yet); that only comes about FOLLOWING the "BEMA" rewards thing, which hasn't yet taken place.


Chpts 4-5 are a change in scenery [setting]... more like a courtroom-setting.



[4:3 describes the first and the last gemstones that were on "the breastpiece of judgment"... etc]

Rev 4:3
And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

Thanks. CC members learn something new every day. Well.....SOME do.