Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[reneweddaybyday]

Then, under your rendering, the same is true of Romans 5:12

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

So only "the Church, the Body of Christ" die? ... only "the Church, the Body of Christ" sin?

Do you not see how erroneous your dogma is, brightfame52???

... the elect in Adam ...

oh brother ... more erroneous nonsense to prop up your erroneous dogma.

when will you stop and just believe Scripture as written by its Author????
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[reneweddaybyday]

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

What you refuse to acknowledge is that God Who justifies the ungodly imputes righteousness to the one who believes. The moment the person believes, he/she is no longer ungodly.

When I pointed that fact out to you, your response was "Thats false" (Post 2514), even though you previously stated "its no where in scripture where the believer in Christ is stated to be the ungodly or in a ungodly state" (Post 910).

And for you to insist that a person is simultaneously ungodly and justified / righteous is nothing but your continued manipulation of Scripture in order to prop up your erroneous dogma that the elect "are Justified while unregenerate" or the elect are "justified before faith, while being ungodly".


Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

What Romans 4:5 tells us is that faith is not works and faith is counted for righteousness today just as it was in Abraham's day ... and even before Abraham for we know that Abel obtained witness that he was righteousthrough his offering by faith:

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Now to prove that this being made Righteous and or Justified before God is prior to any acts of Gospel Obedience from the sinner, and while they are yet ungodly, we will look at Rom 4:25

You plucking the verse out of the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed it and then insisting the verse "proves" that anyone is "made Righteous and or Justified before God ... prior to any acts of Gospel Obedience from the sinner" is nothing but your own eisegesis.

Exegesis and eisegesis are two conflicting approaches in Bible study. Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.​

​

The opposite approach to Scripture is eisegesis, which is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.​

​

Obviously, only exegesis does justice to the text. Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.​

https://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html​

Romans 4:24-5:1 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. Therefore being justified by faith

When you reject the truth of Scripture it is because you suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

You hold to your erroneous dogma and hold it above Scripture, the Word of God.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Justification from sin is prior to Faith in Christ

nope ... this is nothing but your erroneous dogma that one is "regenerate" (born again) in order to believe the gospel by which we are born again.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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[reneweddaybyday]

Now you claim "that's false" when I state a person is no longer "ungodly" when he/she is justified.

Correct and you are absolutely wrong.

Please address the issue raised:

You claimed in Post 910:

"its no where in scripture where the believer in Christ is stated to be the ungodly or in a ungodly state".​

You claimed in Post 2514:

"That’s false" when I told you "Once a person is justified, he/she is no longer "ungodly"."​

You hold opposing views because your statements conflict with each other ...

On the one hand you claim "no where in Scripture" is the believer "stated to be ungodly"; and

On the other hand you claim "That’s false" when you are told once a person is justified, he/she is no longer "ungodly".

No descendant of Adam is born "already Justified".

False. Thats like saying Christ didn't die for any sinner before they were born.

no it's not. It's actually "like saying" exactly what is written in Scripture.

That your dogma conflicts with Scripture does not give you license to change/manipulate what is written in Scripture to align with your erroneous dogma.

All descendants of Adam (even your so-called "elect") are born ungodly and all descendants of Adam are ungodly until God justifies them by imputing righteousness to them and God tells us when He imputes righteousness and when they are justified:

It is true that the elect are born ungodly as is the non elect, but its also true that the elect, though born ungodly, are nevertheless Justified and accounted righteous when they are born

nope ... not true. If they are "accounted righteous when they are born", they have no need for God to impute righteousness to them at the time they believe.

In our day and time, righteousness is imputed in the same manner as God imputed righteousness to Abraham:

Romans 4:

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


Righteousness is imputed to us when we believe. The moment we believe, God imputes righteousness to us and we are then justified.

When we are justified, we are no longer ungodly.

And please note, Rom 4:25 does not state righteous has already been imputed to those who believe. The verse clearly states righteousness shall be imputed, if we believe. If we don't believe, righteousness is not imputed.

I know what Rom 4:25 says

It's not enough to "know what Rom 4:25 says". The issue is do you believe what is written?

Please provide the number of the post submitted by me wherein I "vehemently deny" the "Justifying blood of Christ".

All that isn't necessary

... r - i - g - h - t ... just another sampling from brightfame52 (aka accuser of the brethren).

What is "necessary" is that you quit accusing me of saying whatever nonsense you spue. If you continue to accuse me, I will continue to make you provide proof of your false accusations.

Here is what you have stated:

Post 1620 – "... pronounced Righteous ... before they were even born sinners !"

Post 2107 – "They are born Justified"

Post 2487 – "they were part of His Body ... even before they were born period"

Yes I stated those things because they are true

Since you now acknowledge that you "stated those things", then your accusation in your Post 2515 that I was "lying on" you is again proven false.


Turns out I was not "lying on" you, and I accurately represented your statements.

Again, brightfame52, according to Scripture, if a person is justified, he/she is no longer ungodly

That’s error.

nope ... truth of Scripture.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Since his/her faith is counted for righteousness, clearly Rom 4:5 clarifies that at the time a person believes, God imputes righteousness to that person and he/she is no longer considered ungodly.

No one is justified "before they were born again"

That’s folly

nope ... truth of Scripture.

If a born again one is born again before he/she is born again, there is no need to be born again. That is one of the fallacies of your erroneous dogma.

You sound mixed up

Glad you agree that one of the fallacies of your erroneous dogma "sound "mixed up".
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[reneweddaybyday]

nope ... that I do not hold to your erroneous dogma does not mean I "deny Rom 4:5".

Yes you do deny Rom 4:5

nope ... what I deny is your erroneous dogma that a descendant of Adam is "born Justified" or that a born again believer is "ungodly".

Every descendant of Adam is "ungodly" until the moment God imputes righteousness unto him or her. At that point, he or she is no longer "ungodly" because God has imputed righteous to him/her.

For you to continue to insist that a born again believer is "ungodly" when the Holy Spirit indwells that believer is a fabrication of your erroneous dogma.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


According to Thayer's, righteousness ...

"denotes the state acceptable to God which becomes a sinner's possession through that faith by which he embraces the grace of God offered him in the expiatory death of Jesus Christ (see δικαιόω, 3 b.). In this sense ἡ δικαιοσύνη is used without an adjunct in Romans 4:5"​

So which is it? We can "continue being ungodly sinners" or is it Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof ???

Lol

Answer the question, brightfame52 ...

Is it Scriptural to teach that we can "continue being ungodly sinners" or is it Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof ???
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[reneweddaybyday]

Now when are those being Justified as the Ungodly ?

When God imputes righteousness to him/her.

They were Justified as ungodly

They are justified the instant they believe. And once they are justified, they are no longer "ungodly"

come out the womb with righteousness imputed to them

If that were true then there would be no need for God to further impute righteousness to them.

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


vs 24 – shall be [Greek mellō] imputed [Greek logizomai] – both Greek words are in the present tense, which means the person did not "come out the womb with righteousness imputed to them". Righteousness is imputed when the person believes (the word "believes" is also present tense).


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

ummmmm, this is nothing but more of your manipulation of Scripture in order to prop up your erroneous dogma.

The word "acknowledging" is translated from the Greek word epignōsis.

The word "belief" or "believe(ing)" is translated from the Greek word pistis (noun) or pisteuō (verb).

lol, they the same thing

really? You sure you want to stick with that answer?

The word epignōsis (translated "acknowledging" in Titus 1:1) is also used in Romans 1:28:

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge [Greek epignōsis], God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Those who are given over to a reprobate mind had a knowledge [Greek epignōsis] of God, however they do not believe [Greek pistis]. They did not like to retain God in their knowledge [Greek epignōsis] because they restrain/suppress the truth in unrighteousness as shown in Rom 1:18.

So no, epignōsis is not the same as pistis (noun) or pisteuō (verb). "Now I know you cant believe that."
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[reneweddaybyday]

Ex 12:13

13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

God passing over in Judgement and destruction is due to Him seeing the Blood of the slain lambs, not because of anything else

how did the blood get there, brightfame52?

Exodus 12:7 And they [the children of Israel] shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

Someone from each home had to take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post.


Exodus 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

If no blood on the door posts, God's stated judgment would fall on that house.

2 Thess 1:9

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

And that is not because He sees our Faith

Instead of ripping the verse from the context within which the Author of Scripture placed it, read what's written in vs 8, brightfame52:

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

Those who reject [i.e. obey not] the gospel are the ones who shall be punished with everlasting destruction (2 Thess 1:9).
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[reneweddaybyday]

Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. This means God is Justifying them while they are being Ungodly, not when they are believing, but while Ungodly !

Now who are these Ungodly God is Justifying ? Why its those that Christ has died for Rom 5:6

Ripping verses from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them is not proper interpretation of Scripture.

The Bible is the Word of God, literally "God-breathed" (2 Timothy 3:16), and we are commanded to read, study, and understand it through the use of good Bible study methods and always with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to guide us (1 Corinthians 2:14). Our study is greatly enhanced by maintaining diligence in the use of context because it is quite easy to come to wrong conclusions by taking phrases and verses out of context. It is not difficult to point out places that seemingly contradict other portions of Scripture, but if we carefully look at their context and use the entirety of Scripture as a reference, we can understand the meaning of a passage. “Context is king” means that the context often drives the meaning of a phrase. To ignore context is to put ourselves at a tremendous disadvantage.​

https://www.gotquestions.org/context-Bible.html​

​

His resurrection is evidence that those He died for are Justified

nope. His resurrection is evidence that He is the Son of God ...

Romans 1:

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead
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[brightfame52]

renewed

Genesis 3:

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


I believe the Lord Jesus Christ is the "Seed of the woman" promised in Gen 3:15.

The Lord God spoke to the serpent and said that He was put enmity between him and woman and his seed and her seed. So does the serpent have a seed ? Why did God say that ?

 

[brightfame52]

... nope … those words have come solely from your keyboard.

But that does not stop you from claiming I stated what only you have submitted.

Your erroneous dogma has you deceiving yourself and making false claims against me.


brightfame52 aka accuser of the brethren
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Thats the conclusion I may draw on a fair basis since you yourself admit that people Christ died for shall yet perish in unbelief and their sins, lost !

 

[brightfame52]

You sure are. You can deny all you want but all who read this thread see your manipulation of Scripture.
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The only atonement the scripture teaches is limited to Gods elect, no matter how much you appeal to words like World or whole world, or all and every, doesnt change the fact of the Limited atonement ! Also the atonement death of Christ saved them He died for. Hence anyone not saved, had no part in Christs atonement !

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Phil 1:29 says what it says
We were discussing what is written in Galatians 3 and you now jump to Philippians 1 without ever addressing what we were discussing in Galatians 3:

Doesnt matter, believing in Christ is a gift given on behalf of Christ !

What is clear from the text is that the promise is given to those who believe.


Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Right, Christ only died for them that believe, and because He died for them, they are given the gift of believing on Him Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


And Galatians 3 says what it says and there is a reason you will not acknowledge that Galatians 3 clearly states that it is the promise which is received through faith.

Gal 3:14

That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Faith here is Christ, they receive the promise of the Spirit through Christ, the object of their Faith

Those who Christ died for and redeemed from the curse of the Law Gal 3:13 receive the Spirit from Him. The same truth is taught in Gal 4:4-7

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

So Faith in Gal 3:14 isnt the natural mans faith, its Christ, the Faith. The word faith there has the definite article, so its not mans faith

ἵνα εἰς τὰ ἔθνη ἡ εὐλογία τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ γένηται ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἵνα τὴν ἐπαγγελίαν τοῦ πνεύματος λάβωμεν διὰ τῆς πίστεως

You stated in Post #2470 that "one is only born again once" and you continue to claim that "one must be born again to believe the Gospel !"

Yes, a lost unregenerate person cant believe the gospel, its hid to the lost 2 Cor 4:3-4

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted,

after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise


after you heard, you believed

after you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (regenerated, born again).

How did they hear in the first place ? They had to be of God Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

They were born of God. The believed, because by being born of God, they were given the gift of believing on Christ Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

You keep going in circles with Faith and believing, those are fruits of the New Birth

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

again, brightfame52, please explain what "spiritual insight" is required to understand what is written in Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Its simple, we need Christ through His Spirit to open our understanding, to understand the scriptures Lk 24:45

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

The natural man receiveth not the spiritual things of God, neither can he know/understand them because they are spiritually discened 1 Cor 2:13-14

13 Which things also we speak[the Gospel], not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

To the natural lost man the Gospel of the Cross is foolishness

1 Cor 1:18

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The lost unregenerate man can read the scriptures everyday until doomsday, he cant understand it, not spiritually !

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Again, since you are the only one who keeps insisting "Faith its law keeping", it is you who is communicating "Faith its law keeping".

Yep in your case it is Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Scripture clearly states that faith ≠ works:

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

You deny this scripture, and advocate works !

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

The hearing comes from having been saved/ born again Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
That is not how the verse is written, brightfame52.

Yet its implied, since hearing comes from being born of God Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Jesus speaking, who is it that hears Gods words ?

And let's consider Matt 13 which you brought up in your Post 2550 ...

Matthew 13:

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

That person heard it naturally, not Spiritually, thats why he fell away. Thats in contrast to him that has the good heart, meaning regenerated, he hears it spiritually and understands it, which statement wasnt made for any other hearer Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Bringeth forth spiritual fruit like faith.

People who arent regenerate do hear the word all the time, but they dont spiritually understand it, having no spiritual life. Now Im not going to keep going over this with you !

 

[brightfame52]

ren

please address the point raised concerning John 1:12:

John 1:

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name


The Lord Jesus Christ clearly states that He gave power [the right, the privilege] to become the sons of God(vs 12) to those who did not reject Him (vs 11).

If they are already born again, they already are the sons of God. There would be no need for the Lord Jesus Christ to give them what they already have and are.
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This has been addressed a thousand times with you. The ones who received Christ and believed on His name did so because they were born of God Jn 1:12-13 Same thing John taught in 1 Jn 5:1

 

[brightfame52]

moot point. it is clear you are the one who "say anything, sometimes it seems without thinking".

You still claim faith = works even though Romans 4:5 makes clear that faith ≠ works.

You've got folks simultaneously justified and ungodly and/or reconciled and enemies with no consideration as to the contradiction that raises.

You've got yourself hoodwinked into believing God's Word tells us the "elect" do not have to "believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners".

You've got all the folks in the parable of the sower born again because they "hear" and, according to you, one can only "hear" if they're born again (your Post 2557) ... yet it is clear from the parable that those in Matt 13:19-22 are not believers even though they can "hear".


I could go on, but again, but like I said, moot point. You will never own up to your contradictory statements. You do not care that your dogma doesn't align with Scripture ... you just "say anything" in order to prop up your dogma (and then project your own behavior onto others who do not do what you claim).
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Been over all that with you hundred times. Again, you just say anything I believe to hear yourself talk or to try and impress folks.

 

[brightfame52]

reconciled = no longer enemies.
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Again, in Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

They were reconciled WHEN ?

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

t's so much easier to believe what God's Word tells us faith is:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

According to Heb 11:1, faith is the foundation for those things we yet hope for. When God makes a promise and we lay hold of that promise through faith, we hope for that which God promises by patiently waiting for God to fulfill His promise.

I believe those verses, its you i dont believe

God gives Faith to all for whom Christ died
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

These verses pertain to the elect of God, the world inherited by Abraham and His Seed, Spiritual Seed Rom 4:13

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

like I said ... wholly calvinistic dogma.

The phrase "doctrines of grace" describes the soteriological doctrines that are unique to Reformed theology, which is Calvinistic. These doctrines are summarized with the acronym TULIP.
https://www.gotquestions.org/doctrines-of-grace.html

You can call it and scoff it all you like, the Truths of TULIP are Gospel Truths !

Each of the Truths of Tulip are grounded in the scripture, so you have a problem if you cant see that.
I have no problem with Scripture ... your problem is that you try to align Scripture to your dogma instead of aligning your dogma to Scripture.

Yes you do have a problem with scripture if you cant see the truths that the acronym Tulip presents, Like Total depravity of man, unconditonal election of grace, particular effectual atonement, efficacious call of grace, and the preservation of gods people unto Glory !