Appointing Elders/Bishops from Within the Congregation

[Edify]

It is my understanding the RCC used the term first, which is not to be trusted. The rest I obviously need to research again.

 

[Chester]

Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

I notice that most church traditions I am familiar with bring in elders from outside the congregation. A committee hires a pastor, for example, often a career clergyman, an expert from the outside, who may have gone to school for it. There are churches that hire pastors, the pastor works for a while, then goes elsewhere.

But I see something different in the New Testament. First, I think we need to clarify the difference between a Biblical 'elder' and 'elder' in a lot church traditions. The Greek word for 'elder' is 'presbuteros.' In English, it because 'prester', and later 'priest.' English also used that word for Old Testament kohen, a different group entirely. German got a lot of it's religious language from Old English during the Anglo-Saxon mission, so 'priest' and the German equivalent were a messy terms by the time of the Reformation.

But the reformers considered their ordained men to be presbuteros, elders of the church. The city of Geneva, a city where the Reformed movement was entwined with the government, created a city official called 'elder.' The Presbyterians turned this into a church office in the national church system in Scotland. The Reformed movement called their church elders 'pastors' and these lay officials 'elders.' At first, they applied the Biblical verses about 'elders' to their 'pastors', but later got confused.

So when we are talking about 'elders', we are talking about church leaders, roughly equivalent to what people mean by 'pastor.' Elders of the church are told to pastor the church/flock of God in Acts 20:28 and the opening verses of I Peter 5. Acts 20:28 calls them bishops (overseers) and I Peter 5 tells them to oversee the flock.

We see in scripture that there were 'elders'--plural in every church. Paul saluted the 'bishops'-- plural in the one church in Philippi.

Isn't it good if elders are appointed from within the local church? Shouldn't existing elders have in mine that it is a part of their responsibility to facilitate this, along the lines of II Timothy 2:2?

What you describe here is very clear and I agree completely.

Indeed this is how the church I am a part of operates. The pastors and the deacons are chosen by the membership from within the congregation and are then ordained. There is no separate "board of elders" that makes the decisions of the church. Once leaders are ordained they along with the voice of the entire church is the ruling organization.

We would not (except in severe emergencies) give the church offices over to outsiders who are not identified as a part of the local body and have not been tested in the local body.

 

[ResidentAlien]

It is my understanding the RCC used the term first, which is not to be trusted. The rest I obviously need to research again.

Yes, and what the RCC means by bishop isn't the same thing as what the New Testament describes as an overseer.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Can you give me the site where you found this? Obviously I need correction.

You don't need correction, maybe just a little more detail.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/bishop

For the Greek https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g1984/kjv/tr/0-1/

 

[Nehemiah6]

At best, Paul initiated what perhaps could be labeled the first or one of the first denominations under the umbrella title of Christianity.

No, Paul did not do any such thing. A careful reading of the New Testament shows that:
1. Every church was autonomous (not part of any denomination)
2. Every church had a plurality of elders (not one pastor doing everything)
3. The elders were in fact the shepherds or pastors, having the necessary spiritual qualifications and spiritual gifts
6. No one was brought in from outside the local church for ministry
7. The elders were jointly responsible for preaching, teaching, shepherding, and oversight
8. The term bishop (Gk episkopos) focused on the oversight aspect, but the men looking after the flock within the church were pastors/elders/bishops and all were equal
9. The elders were directly accountable to Christ, not some "bishop" outside the church
10. The NT pattern was abandoned were quickly, and the hierarchical system was installed after the passing of the apostles.

 

[Edify]

It is my understanding that Strong's is accurate for showing what the KJV translates words to, instead of what it should actually say in Hebrew/Greek. Is this correct?

 

[Aaron56]

All elders are pastors. But not all pastors are elders.

In the scriptures, the apostles ordained the elders (Timothy, Paul, Barnabas, etc.). Why should we change the pattern shown?

 

[ResidentAlien]

It is my understanding that Strong's is accurate for showing what the KJV translates words to, instead of what it should actually say in Hebrew/Greek. Is this correct?

Both. If you have the KJV word just look it up in Strong's and it gives you the Greek or Hebrew meaning. Strong's isn't as thorough as a good Greek/English lexicon; but sometimes those are very scholarly and hard to use and understand.

 

[Edify]

I like what Vine's Dictionary says about it:
2Strong's Number: g1984Greek: episkope
Bishop (Overseer):
besides its meaning, "visitation," e.g., 1Pe 2:12 (cp. the Sept. of Exd 3:16; Isa 10:3; Jer 10:15), is rendered "office," in Act 1:20, RV (AV, "bishoprick"); in 1Ti 3:1, "the office of a bishop," lit., "(if any one seeketh) overseership," there is no word representing office.
Note: The corresponding verb is episkopeo, which, in reference to the work of an overseer, is found in 1Pe 5:2, RV, "exercising the oversight," for AV "taking the oversight."
See OVERSIGHT.

What it seems to me is that certain elders or all the elders of the church has oversight of teaching, preaching, & making sure the scriptures are properly obeyed. Maybe not all elders knew about proper teaching or preaching, but all of them had oversight of church order.
Would that be correct?

 

[Edify]

I'll be back on here a little later. Bye all.

 

[ResidentAlien]

there is no word representing office.

That's a good point; the word office isn't in the original.

What it seems to me is that certain elders or all the elders of the church has oversight of teaching, preaching, & making sure the scriptures are properly obeyed. Maybe not all elders knew about proper teaching or preaching, but all of them had oversight of church order.
Would that be correct?

I think this is correct. I think it might extend further to pastors. I don't see any real evidence of a "head" pastor. The Greek for pastor is ποιμένας (poimenas), "a shepherd." Elders could be pastors, teachers or preachers and vice versa; and all were overseers.

 

[presidente]

1 Timothy 3:1
King James Bible
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
Then there's the others:

New International Version
Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task.

English Standard Version
The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

Berean Standard Bible
This is a trustworthy saying: If anyone aspires to be an overseer, he desires a noble task.

Berean Literal Bible
Trustworthy is the saying: If anyone aspires to overseership, he is desirous of a good work.

New American Standard Bible
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

From Wikipedia:
The Bishops' Bible is an English translation of the Bible which was produced under the authority of the established Church of England in 1568. It was substantially revised in 1572, and the 1602 edition was prescribed as the base text for the King James Version that was completed in 1611.
The promoter of the exercise, and the leading figure in translating was Matthew Parker, Archbishop of Canterbury.
The translators of the King James Version were instructed to take the 1602 edition of the Bishops' Bible as their basis, although several other existing translations were taken into account.

So is there any evidence that he was the one who translated it 'bishop'? And is that so bad since the word bishop comes from the word translated 'bishop' there?

Did 'presbytery'
as a translation of a word in Greek it derived from make its way into the KJV by way of Puritan fans of Presyterianism?

Are either of these scandalous or conspiracies?

 

[presidente]

No, Paul did not do any such thing. A careful reading of the New Testament shows that:
1. Every church was autonomous (not part of any denomination)
2. Every church had a plurality of elders (not one pastor doing everything)
3. The elders were in fact the shepherds or pastors, having the necessary spiritual qualifications and spiritual gifts
6. No one was brought in from outside the local church for ministry
7. The elders were jointly responsible for preaching, teaching, shepherding, and oversight
8. The term bishop (Gk episkopos) focused on the oversight aspect, but the men looking after the flock within the church were pastors/elders/bishops and all were equal
9. The elders were directly accountable to Christ, not some "bishop" outside the church
10. The NT pattern was abandoned were quickly, and the hierarchical system was installed after the passing of the apostles.

They did send from another church to Apollos to Corinth, but it does not say he became an elder there. Barnabas was sent to Antioch also.

 

[presidente]

In the Assemblies of God, the SOVEREIGN churches (that are financially self supporting free-standing churches) elect their deacons and elders from the congregation. and if the Deacoc/Elder board isn't CAPABLE (for whatever reason) of handling the issue, the Denominational regional HQ will send a "Presbyter" to mediate.

Do you find the misalignment between denominational titles and Biblical roles a bit irritating?

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Do you find the misalignment between denominational titles and Biblical roles a bit irritating?

Nope. "A Rose by any other name would smell as sweet".

 

[JaumeJ]

No, Paul did not do any such thing. A careful reading of the New Testament shows that:
1. Every church was autonomous (not part of any denomination)
2. Every church had a plurality of elders (not one pastor doing everything)
3. The elders were in fact the shepherds or pastors, having the necessary spiritual qualifications and spiritual gifts
6. No one was brought in from outside the local church for ministry
7. The elders were jointly responsible for preaching, teaching, shepherding, and oversight
8. The term bishop (Gk episkopos) focused on the oversight aspect, but the men looking after the flock within the church were pastors/elders/bishops and all were equal
9. The elders were directly accountable to Christ, not some "bishop" outside the church
10. The NT pattern was abandoned were quickly, and the hierarchical system was installed after the passing of the apostles.

Words.

 

[Nehemiah6]

They did send from another church to Apollos to Corinth, but it does not say he became an elder there. Barnabas was sent to Antioch also.

These were visiting brethren sent for specific reasons.

 

[Edify]

So is there any evidence that he was the one who translated it 'bishop'? And is that so bad since the word bishop comes from the word translated 'bishop' there?

Did 'presbytery'
as a translation of a word in Greek it derived from make its way into the KJV by way of Puritan fans of Presyterianism?

Are either of these scandalous or conspiracies?

I will withold my answer till I research further.
Looking at what the Catholic church did with Bishop, making it an office when it wasn't, & giving it a seat of authority which is directly against scripture, I don't believe the church of England did any better.

 

[Edify]

Mark 10:42And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 43But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,d 44and whoever would be first among you must be slavee of all. 45For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

I don't know a single church today that follows this teaching. Boards of elders possess power as well as the preachers/pastors.

1Peter 5:1So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: 2shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight,a not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you;b not for shameful gain, but eagerly; 3not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. 4And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. 5Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

In Rom 15:16, St. Paul the Apostle refers to himself as doing a priestly service, the Greek literally means, officiating as a Priest: "to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit." (BSB)

in the priestly service
ἱερουργοῦντα (hierourgounta)
Verb - Present Participle Active - Accusative Masculine Singular
Strong's 2418: To minister in holy things. From a compound of hieron and the base of ergon; to be a temple-worker, i.e. Officiate as a priest." Taken from: https://biblehub.com/romans/15-16.htm

In Acts, 20:28, we clearly see it is God's Will for there to be Bishops in the Church: "Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood." (ASV)

Sadly, of all the many Bible versions in this page https://biblehub.com/acts/20-28.htm only 2 translate it "bishop". That's why some people believe "hey, there are no Bishops in the Bible". That is an anti-clerical misconception. There certainly are.

The Greek: "ἐπισκόπους (episkopous)
Noun - Accusative Masculine Plural
Strong's 1985: From epi and skopos; a superintendent, i.e. Christian officer in genitive case charge of a church."

Yet, the KJV renders 1 Pet 2:25 as "the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.", a reference to Christ, the First Bishop.

The same word is used there, as can be verified here: "Ἐπίσκοπον (Episkopon)" https://biblehub.com/1_peter/2-25.htm

Episkopous literally means Bishop. It speaks of someone appointed to a Church Office by Christ or the Apostles.

God Bless.