The Remnant

Jocund · Oct 22, 2022

So you agree that John the Revelator saw Jesus, the Son of God? You agree that if everyone suddenly had a vision, that this would satisfy that component of the Luke 21 prophesy?

Wansvic said:

I don't see it. Nothing in Luke 21 points to a temple. And clearly there are going to be some differing opinion about the meaning of the temple in Rev 11.

Wansvic · Oct 22, 2022

Jocund said:

John's vision was prophetic of a future event. The entire book of Revelation is a compilation of future events leading up to the revealing/unveiling of the Lord Jesus Christ at His second coming.

The accounts referenced in both Luke 21:24 and Revelation 11:1-2 reference Jerusalem be tread upon by the Gentiles. The Luke account mentions this occurs until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And Revelation says it will take place for forty and two months; half of the tribulation period.

Enjoy your evening. And thanks for the discussion.

DavidTree · Oct 22, 2022

Inquisitor said:

To: TheDivineWatermark and Inquisitor

Galatians 6:16 "Peace and mercy to all who walk by this rule, even to the Israel of God."

Believing Jews are part of the "Israel of God" since the Gospel "is to the Jew first"

The same Gospel "is also to the Gentile"

When a Jew comes to Messiah and forsakes the Old Covenant that he/she may be under the NEW Covenant they become a NEW Creature in Messiah.

When a Gentile comes to Christ and forsakes idols, then that Gentile becomes a NEW Creature under the same NEW Covenant.

Now the Jew and the Gentile become members of the One True Body of Messiah/Christ which is the "Israel of God" Born thru the Spirit of God.

Truth Validation #1
Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

Truth Validation #2
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we (Jew & Gentile) might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Truth Validation #3
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Truth Validation #4
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Truth Validation #5
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Truth Validation #6
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God;
but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

Truth Validation #7
that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
As He says also in Hosea:
“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
and it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

Truth Validation #8
For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
And they(Jews of the flesh) also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion,
that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Truth Validation Conclusion = "For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,"

Jocund · Oct 22, 2022

Wansvic said:

Likewise, and thank you too.

Cheers

Inquisitor · Oct 22, 2022

DavidTree said:

To: TheDivineWatermark and Inquisitor

Galatians 6:16 "Peace and mercy to all who walk by this rule, even to the Israel of God."

Believing Jews are part of the "Israel of God" since the Gospel "is to the Jew first"

The same Gospel "is also to the Gentile"

When a Jew comes to Messiah and forsakes the Old Covenant that he/she may be under the NEW Covenant they become a NEW Creature in Messiah.

When a Gentile comes to Christ and forsakes idols, then that Gentile becomes a NEW Creature under the same NEW Covenant.

Now the Jew and the Gentile become members of the One True Body of Messiah/Christ which is the "Israel of God" Born thru the Spirit of God.

Truth Validation #1
Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

Truth Validation #2
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we (Jew & Gentile) might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Truth Validation #3
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Truth Validation #4
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Truth Validation #5
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Truth Validation #6
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God;
but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

Truth Validation #7
that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
As He says also in Hosea:
“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
and it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

Truth Validation #8
For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
And they(Jews of the flesh) also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion,
that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Truth Validation Conclusion = "For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,"

As long as you understand the transition, the transition from the centrality of the nation of Israel. To the New Covenant, a covenant that no longer recognizes this nationality. A New Covenant that severed the nation of Israel from the tree of life. No longer is the Jew first and the Gentile second.

We inhabit the age of the Gentiles.

Inquisitor · Oct 22, 2022

Wansvic said:

That's correct.

The nation of Israel did not exist for two thousand years, fact.

Luke 21:24
And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Did the apostles know when most of the New Testament letters were written. That they would lose the nation of Israel, probably not. Did the apostles recognize when they wrote, that the old covenant was replaced by the new covenant. Probably not fully, did they understand the change over of that administration of God.

Luke 13:35
Behold, your house (Israel) is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is the One who comes in the name of the Lord!’

DavidTree · Oct 22, 2022

Wansvic said:

Scripture references judgement upon the earth being withheld until 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel are sealed for their protection. (Rev 7:2-4) Whereas Christians are sealed with the Holy Ghost as the result of having received their spiritual rebirth. (2 Cor. 1:22, Eph. 1:13)

I came across a commentary today that makes a couple points relevant to this topic. They bolstered what I have understood to be true for some time. "The 12 tribes are not "lost" as some contend."

Revelation 7:4-8:
"John heard the names of 12 tribes with 12,000 from each tribe...sealed and thus protected. The 12 tribes are not "lost" as some contend.
Attempts have been made to identify the 12 tribes here with the church, mostly to avoid the implication that this is literally Israel. The fact that specific tribes were mentioned and specific numbers from each tribe were indicated would seem to remove this from the symbolic and to justify literal interpretation. If God intended these verses to represent Israel literally, He would have used this means. Nowhere else in the Bible do a dozen references to the 12 tribes mean the church. Obviously Israel will be in the Tribulation, and though men do not know the identification of each tribe today, certainly God knows."
(from Bible Knowledge Commentary/Old Testament Copyright © 1983...All rights reserved.)

What you posted here is Scripturaly false.

In fact the Scriptures do reference the Body of Christ/His Church as the 12 Tribes of Israel.

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 23, 2022

Wansvic said:

Many people don't.

So, you're not alone in that thought. = )

Romans 11:25.

Agreed...

... but there is a question regarding whether "fulness" in this verse refers only to "the full number of Gentiles" (as tho, no other Gentiles will ever be saved after that point in time--there will, btw); or whether it refers to the "full allotted amount of TIME" [re: the Gentiles], after which point, God turns His attention back to Israel (their "blindness" lifted) who will again, at that time, be called "My people" / "My people, Israel" (see Ez39:7, for example... and Isa26:13-21,esp.vv.17,18,20, for another example... as well as the idea expressed in Hos5:14-6:3, etc etc)--presently, they are "Lo ammi" ("not my people")...

Right. That's what Romans 11:25 ("until the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]"); contrast this with the "FULNESS" spoken regarding Israel in Rom11:12 "[how much more] their FULNESS," and where v.15 carries on the thought (regarding them), where it says,

"For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD ?"

(i.e. likening this unto a resurrection, just as does Ezekiel 37:12-13,20-23 ["dry bones" prophecy: Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations, WHERE SCATTERED]; like in Dan12:1-3 [same; likening this unto a resurrection], like in Hos5:14-6:3 [likewise], like in Isa26:13-21,19-20 [ditto], etc etc). Note that this is EARLY in the Trib years (rather than occurring at its END or "AFTER" it, at which point it is too late!)

However, the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" refers distinctly to "Gentile domination over Israel" (think: "TRODDEN DOWN" Lk21:24 and Rev11:2; think also: Neb's "dream / statue / image" with Neb as "head of gold"... but he's not the end of it...),
which STARTED in 606/605bc and won't be CONCLUDED until Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (Dan2:34-35, Rev11:2, Lk21:24, etc).

The two distinct phrases (within their own two distinct contexts) refer to distinct things, and have distinct time-frames (and end-points), though are very often mistakenly conflated... and mis-defined / incorrectly applied.

When we are referring to what Rom11:25 speaks of, we need to use the language used there: "[blindness...] until the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]";

...whereas when we are referring to what Luke 21:24 speaks of, we need to use the language which is used there, which is distinct in meaning: "[(Jerusalem...) TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles (also Rv11:2)] until the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled"

...rather than mixing the two ideas (swapping them indiscriminately mid-sentence) when referring to either of these passages / contexts.

I hope the above explanation helps you see my perspective a bit better.

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 23, 2022

As to the OP question (re: "The Remnant"), here's what I put in a thread back in September, on the same Subject:

Post #95 (pg 5, different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/the-remnant.207673/post-4931446

[quoting that old post] [re: "the remnant"]

I believe this is the ones being spoken of here in this text:

“Therefore will He give them up, until the time when she that travaileth hath brought forth; then the remnant of His brethren shall return to the children of Israel.” - Micah 5:3 (distinct from the birth of Jesus Himself being spoken of in the previous verse).

I believe this phrase "the remnant of his brethren" is the same ones being spoken of in Rev12:17 "the rest of her seed" (the "woman" in both passages being the same); "remnant / rest" being the same word.

I agree with what Gaebelein says in his commentary of this passage (differing only minorly regarding the identity of "the man child / the male [arsena G730]," in Rev12:5,13... I agree with those scholars who believe "the man child / the male [G730]" speaks of "the Church which is His body" in union with Him... not speaking of Jesus' Own Birth in Bethlehem, past... that's really the one point I differ with him here):

-- Micah 5 Gaebelein's Annotated Bible (biblehub.com)

[See also Zech2:6 and context, "...I have spread [scattered] you abroad as the four winds of the heavens..." (later to be "gathered" in the same-sounding way--all earthly-located though)]

Speaking of Israel's FUTURE (the believing remnant of Israel yet future to us)

[end quoting that post]

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 23, 2022

DavidTree said:

DavidTree, may I ask you... do you also read yourself (and all "saints") into the following verse? (just wondering):

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

DavidTree · Oct 23, 2022

TheDivineWatermark said:

First off i want to say = Good Morning Brother TDW

Secondly = i am not against you or anyone on here who loves the Lord Jesus Christ

Thirdly and most importantly = "Christ is for us" meaning this; HE cares for us daily and calls us unto Himself that HE may fill us with His Holy Spirit that comes to us thru hearing and obedience to His Word.

DavidTree · Oct 23, 2022

Wansvic said:

John's vision was prophetic of a future event. The entire book of Revelation is a compilation of future events leading up to the revealing/unveiling of the Lord Jesus Christ at His second coming.

The accounts referenced in both Luke 21:24 and Revelation 11:1-2 reference Jerusalem be tread upon by the Gentiles. The Luke account mentions this occurs until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And Revelation says it will take place for forty and two months; half of the tribulation period.

Enjoy your evening. And thanks for the discussion.

Revelation is Past, Present and Future

Peace and Good Morning

DavidTree · Oct 23, 2022

Inquisitor said:

FYI - i am very short in my answers and texting as i do not like to type/text

Please, do not take my short and to the point responses as being against you.

Your post, to which i am responding to, is not scripturally accurate so would you please emphasize each point in it with a scripture that would validate your point of view.

Thank You

DavidTree · Oct 23, 2022

Inquisitor said:

i am sure there are some things you mentioned that i am in agreement with as they are found in scripture

DavidTree · Oct 23, 2022

TheDivineWatermark said:

i am gathering my thoughts over coffee right now - will respond soon

Wansvic · Oct 23, 2022

DavidTree said:

It is. Thank you for pointing out the error in my post.

DavidTree · Oct 23, 2022

Wansvic said:

Not an error on your part just a 'overlook' which i have done as well.

Peace

Inquisitor · Oct 23, 2022

DavidTree said:

Has Israel been grafted out?

Luke 21:20-24
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of punishment, so that all things which have been written will be fulfilled. Woe to those women who are pregnant, and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Israel will not exist until the age of the Gentiles has been fulfilled.

Evmur · Oct 23, 2022

Inquisitor said:

Has Israel been grafted out?

Luke 21:20-24
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of punishment, so that all things which have been written will be fulfilled. Woe to those women who are pregnant, and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Israel will not exist until the age of the Gentiles has been fulfilled.

Yo ... another way of putting that is "thar'll be no Rapture until the Jews are in" who said that?

.... I said that

DavidTree · Oct 23, 2022

Inquisitor said:

You said: "Israel will not exist until the age of the Gentiles has been fulfilled."

Your statement, in it's current form, is completely contrary to Scripture unless you mean this:

Israel of the flesh(the Jews) as a earthly nation are currently not accepted by their LORD, Creator & MESSIAH into the HIS Body, which is the 'called out congregation' known as the "Israel of God" = Born of the Spirit of God = "They are not all Israel who are of Israel".

The Remnant

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