Summary of Bible references on the Rapture

ZNP · Dec 11, 2022

The word is clear about the rapture? Wow, I wonder why all those who have debated over this topic for the last hundred years never read these four verses.

I am sorry but there is a reason we are approaching 7,000 posts on this topic, there is a lot on it.

Every single person will represent a different situation with a different judgement. There will be those who are clearly saved, those who are clearly going to hell, and then a whole lot of people in between.

The rapture is likened to a harvest. There are many different crops on earth, they grow in many different conditions, and they are harvested at different times. Yet the number of different crops is miniscule compared to the number of different people.

The rapture is likened to a reward given to servants who are doing their jobs. Some people are very conscientous in doing their job, some do the bare minimum, and some should be fired. If you give everyone the same reward it is the same as giving no one a reward.

The Christian life is likened to running a race to compete for a prize and we are told specifically not all win the prize.

The rapture is likened to a baby being born. Many babies are born on the due date, many aren't.

The analogies that have been given to us by God do not in any way suggest a simple answer.

For example the verse you quoted said "those who are alive" suggesting many will be killed prior to His coming. It also says "and remain until His coming". What does that mean, where would you go? This is why many interpret that verse to say that some will be raptured prior to His coming, some will be martyred in the tribulation, and some will remain until He comes.

However, if you think this verse means there is one single rapture for everyone then you are ignoring Revelation 3:3 and Revelation 3:10.

I don't see any way that the warning in 3:3 and the promise in 3:10 can be interpreted to mean that.

justpassinthrough · Dec 11, 2022

ZNP said:

The word of God, the word of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself teaches us the rapture and resurrection occur at His coming.

Either you agree with that foundational truth or you don’t.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

Do you believe the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming or not?

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9

JPT

cv5 · Dec 11, 2022

Rev 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

ZNP · Dec 11, 2022

justpassinthrough said:

I believe that those who are alive and remain until His coming will be raptured, yes.

I also believe the Lord's word in Revelation 3:3 and His word in Revelation 3:10

cv5 · Dec 11, 2022

justpassinthrough said:

No. The "night" is the idiomatic type of the DOTL aka the 70th week of Daniel tribulation. Which begins with the opening of the first seal in Rev 6. We (the Church) have already been raptured before then, illustrated and described in no uncertain terms in Rev 2, 3, 4 and 5.

Read it for yourself. Yea....that is the Church bro.

Our place at the SC is to be WITH JESUS, as His Bride, at His side when He comes to judge the earth-dwellers.

Rev 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

ZNP · Dec 11, 2022

What did the New Covenant replace?

When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.

The Old Covenant was like a picture book that we give to young children. We have outgrow the picture book, but the lesson is still appropriate for the New Covenant. This picture of us being priests entering into the Holy place and the Holy of Holies and showing us that the way into the most Holy place was not disclosed until Jesus was crucified, dead, buried, and then rose from the dead.

This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper.

This is what has been done away. We don't offer the blood of bulls and goats, we offer the blood of Jesus. We still have a sacrifice for sin, that has not changed, only we have replaced the ineffective blood with the effectual offering.

They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings–external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

These ceremonial outward regulations have been done away with in the New Covenant. Again, sin, and a sacrifice for sin have not been done away.

When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

The Old Covenant was trying to obtain redemption and all they got was a one year reprieve each year. The Lord obtained an eternal redemption. This is the difference.

The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:6-14).

So the Old Testament was a picture book of how we needed to be cleansed by the blood. We now have the reality of that we don't need the pictures of goats and bulls and ashes. But we still need to have our conscience cleansed from acts that lead to death. What acts? Obviously, those acts that violate the ten commandments for one.

Let's give an example of something we need to be cleansed from -- arrogance. In this blog I have posted many links to people who teach on this subject that I may not fully agree with. However they are teaching the Bible and I am open to the fact that I may not know all mysteries. What I have learned is that everyone, without exception, everyone who teaches on this subject has been wrong. It is impossible to say by how much at this point but I have yet to see anyone who has not been wrong. One reason I stay away from all the charts is I feel the charts are like showing a map that gives you the entire trail during the seven year period known as the 70th week. I used to do a lot of hiking and if you can't show me where the trail head is, where it begins, your map is useless. So all these making maps agree they can't show you where it begins, yet they confidently affirm they can show you everything else. So I see these charts as a useful study tool, a useful way to try and organize what you are reading in Revelation, but other than that they are useless. Instead what I find very useful is being trained how to stand for the Lord and being advised of what is coming and what you may have to face.

justpassinthrough · Dec 11, 2022

ZNP said:

You should believe all of His word, because none of it contradicts.

Three main things occur at His coming: in order

The Resurrection
The Rapture
The destruction of the wicked, especially the antichrist

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

we who are alive and remain — Rapture

until the coming of the Lord

will by no means precede those who are asleep. — Resurrection of the dead in Christ

For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 5:2-3

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8

destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Destruction of the antichrist occurs at the coming of the Lord, along with the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rapture.

This happens on the last Day; the Day of the Lord

Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54

JPT

XavierJesusLovesIndia · Dec 11, 2022

justpassinthrough said:

You should believe all of His word, because none of it contradicts.

Three main things occur at His coming: in order

The Resurrection
The Rapture
The destruction of the wicked, especially the antichrist

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

we who are alive and remain — Rapture

until the coming of the Lord

will by no means precede those who are asleep. — Resurrection of the dead in Christ

For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 5:2-3

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8

destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Destruction of the antichrist occurs at the coming of the Lord, along with the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rapture.

This happens on the last Day; the Day of the Lord

Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54

JPT

Agreed.

justpassinthrough · Dec 11, 2022

cv5 said:

Three main things occur at His coming: in order

The Resurrection
The Rapture
The destruction of the wicked, especially the antichrist

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

we who are alive and remain — Rapture

until the coming of the Lord

will by no means precede those who are asleep. — Resurrection of the dead in Christ

cv5 · Dec 11, 2022

justpassinthrough said:

Bro....time to up you game. That is amateur hour eschatology fraught with error. You did not and cannot refute anything I have posted. For the obvious reason that the pre-trib rapture is iron-clad biblical doctrine.

I have never seen any post-tribber even come CLOSE to prevailing in an argument with pre-tribbers. Pre-tribbers are batting 1000 and always will be. Because they are right.

justpassinthrough · Dec 11, 2022

cv5 said:

Yes those that return with Christ at His coming are the dead in Christ, who are in heaven.

even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-15

At His coming, the Second Coming, the dead in Christ are raised first, then those who are alive and remain, are caught up together.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

The resurrection and rapture are one event.

JPT

justpassinthrough · Dec 11, 2022

cv5 said:

Bro....time to up you game. That is amateur hour eschatology fraught with error. You did not and cannot refute anything I have posted. For the obvious reason that the pre-trib rapture is iron-clad biblical doctrine.

I have never seen any post-tribber even come CLOSE to prevailing in an argument with pre-tribbers. Pre-tribbers are batting 1000 and always will be. Because they are right.

Go ahead and point out the error in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 for us.

ZNP · Dec 11, 2022

I have also learned that many of the things people confidently affirm as an immutable law, isn't.

For example, "No one knows the day or the hour".

That is quoted all the time as though it is some kind of law like the law of gravity.

But why don't they quote Revelation 3:3 just as often?

Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Since there is no contradiction in the word and both are right you have to ask yourself where these two verses would intersect so that they are both right.

At the time Jesus told the 12 that "no one knows the day and hour" that was true. He was telling them it is not written in the Bible, it is not written in the book of Enoch, etc.

However, Jesus never said that God the Father didn't know, nor did He say that God the Father would not tell the Son prior to the day, nor did He say that the Son wouldn't tell the angels. After all how do you explain this verse if the Son didn't tell the angels?

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

What about the believers? The Lord likens the end of days to the days of Noah and to the days of Lot. Noah entered the ark seven days before the flood began. There was a prophecy that when Methuselah died the end would come and Methuselah died seven days before the flood. So no one knew the day that Methuselah would die, but they did know that his death was a prophetic sign given by God that would give us a warning.

What about Abraham. Didn't God tell Abraham what He was about to do to Sodom only a few days before He destroyed it? So even though no one knew at the time Jesus was talking to the 12 that doesn't mean He can't send word to those who are watching, men of faith, prior to the day.

What about Lot, didn't he know hours before the city was destroyed?

cv5 · Dec 11, 2022

justpassinthrough said:

The Scripture is not in error.....you are.

ZNP · Dec 11, 2022

cv5 said:

I am a "pre tribber" but there are several major flaws in this doctrine.

1. How long is the tribulation? The Bible says that the 70th week is 7 years but nowhere does it say that the 70th week = the tribulation. Not only so but Christians have gone through tribulation for the entire church age. Not only so but we are told all must go through tribulation, so the term "pre trib" is already hopelessly flawed. Why not say "pre 70th week"? Because we are not told that it is pre 70th week. The best thing we are told is that the church in Philadelphia will be kept out of the hour of trial. So "pre hour of trial" would be Biblical, but for some reason they want to say "pre tribulation". Then it gets even thornier, is it pre trib or pre Great trib? Many try to distinguish the tribulation as man made tribulation from Great Tribulation which is God's wrath. The problem with that is Revelation tells us that some come out of "Great tribulation" yet it is before God pours out His wrath. But it gets worse, what does the word "tribulation" mean? It is taken from the root of a word that refers to the instrument used to harvest wheat. So then, how could any wheat be harvested "pre trib" if the tribulation is what the Lord uses to harvest you?

2. But here is the second major flaw. Even if you completely subscribe to a pre trib rapture whatever that means, it is very clear that in Revelation some stand on a glassy sea that is calm and some stand on a glassy sea that is filled with fire. Some were kept from the hour of trial, some had ten days of trial, some were beheaded, etc. I have done my best to figure out how many and the best estimates I can make based on the Bible all come to one sixth. If one out of six believers is raptured prior to the "hour of trial" then 5/6th aren't. That is 83% aren't. So those who do not believe in a "pre trib" rapture are going to be right 83% of the time. This also means that those who think "the church" will be raptured before the tribulation are going to be wrong 83% of the time.

cv5 · Dec 11, 2022

ZNP said:

I am a "pre tribber" but there are several major flaws in this doctrine.

1. How long is the tribulation? The Bible says that the 70th week is 7 years but nowhere does it say that the 70th week = the tribulation. Not only so but Christians have gone through tribulation for the entire church age. Not only so but we are told all must go through tribulation, so the term "pre trib" is already hopelessly flawed. Why not say "pre 70th week"? Because we are not told that it is pre 70th week. The best thing we are told is that the church in Philadelphia will be kept out of the hour of trial. So "pre hour of trial" would be Biblical, but for some reason they want to say "pre tribulation". Then it gets even thornier, is it pre trib or pre Great trib? Many try to distinguish the tribulation as man made tribulation from Great Tribulation which is God's wrath. The problem with that is Revelation tells us that some come out of "Great tribulation" yet it is before God pours out His wrath. But it gets worse, what does the word "tribulation" mean? It is taken from the root of a word that refers to the instrument used to harvest wheat. So then, how could any wheat be harvested "pre trib" if the tribulation is what the Lord uses to harvest you?

2. But here is the second major flaw. Even if you completely subscribe to a pre trib rapture whatever that means, it is very clear that in Revelation some stand on a glassy sea that is calm and some stand on a glassy sea that is filled with fire. Some were kept from the hour of trial, some had ten days of trial, some were beheaded, etc. I have done my best to figure out how many and the best estimates I can make based on the Bible all come to one sixth. If one out of six believers is raptured prior to the "hour of trial" then 5/6th aren't. That is 83% aren't. So those who do not believe in a "pre trib" rapture are going to be right 83% of the time. This also means that those who think "the church" will be raptured before the tribulation are going to be wrong 83% of the time.

I am 100% convinced that the pre-trib rapture is boilerplate doctrine because of the impeccability of the case set forth in the bible so codified. I have yet to see ANY evidence refuting the pre-trib doctrine. In fact that is what I find so amazing. A perfect flawless consistency.

What I DO SEE.....is massive error and blundering clumsy attempts at exegesis by the post-tribbers. Glad its not me bro. Believe me.

cv5 · Dec 11, 2022

justpassinthrough said:

Yes those that return with Christ at His coming are the dead in Christ, who are in heaven.

even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-15

At His coming, the Second Coming, the dead in Christ are raised first, then those who are alive and remain, are caught up together.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

The resurrection and rapture are one event.

JPT

There is not one single solitary passage anywhere that indicates that the Church per se is on the earth during the 70th week tribulation. On the other hand, there are many that indicate we are already in heaven before it ever begins.

cv5 · Dec 11, 2022

ZNP said:

I am a "pre tribber" but there are several major flaws in this doctrine.

1. How long is the tribulation? The Bible says that the 70th week is 7 years but nowhere does it say that the 70th week = the tribulation. Not only so but Christians have gone through tribulation for the entire church age. Not only so but we are told all must go through tribulation, so the term "pre trib" is already hopelessly flawed. Why not say "pre 70th week"? Because we are not told that it is pre 70th week. The best thing we are told is that the church in Philadelphia will be kept out of the hour of trial. So "pre hour of trial" would be Biblical, but for some reason they want to say "pre tribulation". Then it gets even thornier, is it pre trib or pre Great trib? Many try to distinguish the tribulation as man made tribulation from Great Tribulation which is God's wrath. The problem with that is Revelation tells us that some come out of "Great tribulation" yet it is before God pours out His wrath. But it gets worse, what does the word "tribulation" mean? It is taken from the root of a word that refers to the instrument used to harvest wheat. So then, how could any wheat be harvested "pre trib" if the tribulation is what the Lord uses to harvest you?

2. But here is the second major flaw. Even if you completely subscribe to a pre trib rapture whatever that means, it is very clear that in Revelation some stand on a glassy sea that is calm and some stand on a glassy sea that is filled with fire. Some were kept from the hour of trial, some had ten days of trial, some were beheaded, etc. I have done my best to figure out how many and the best estimates I can make based on the Bible all come to one sixth. If one out of six believers is raptured prior to the "hour of trial" then 5/6th aren't. That is 83% aren't. So those who do not believe in a "pre trib" rapture are going to be right 83% of the time. This also means that those who think "the church" will be raptured before the tribulation are going to be wrong 83% of the time.

What you fail to comprehend is that the "rapture" is also the END OF THE AGE.....THE CHURCH AGE. A definitive, succinct, once for all time delineation eternally fixed in God's prophetic plan and program. And realize that there are other prophetic fulfillments to follow. Like all of Rev chapters 6-22.

Your post is blending and conflating that which is distinct and disparate and intentionally perspicuous. Which lends no result but confusion. Which all post-tribbers suffer from IMO.

XavierJesusLovesIndia · Dec 11, 2022

Simply reading 1 Thess 4 is the best argument against the Pre-Trib Rapture there ever was:

"Believers Who Have Died
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

This event clearly happens (1) Post-Resurrection of the Saints, thus post-Trib also (2) with a Loud Trumpet, not in secret, (3) At the Second Coming. It could not be clearer. Those expecting Pre-Trib rapture are going to be disappointed.

ZNP · Dec 11, 2022

Zechariah's prayer and God's prayer

8 So it was, that while he was serving as priest before God in the order of his division, 9 according to the custom of the priesthood, his lot fell to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord. 10 And the whole multitude of the people was praying outside at the hour of incense. 11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing on the right side of the altar of incense. 12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.

13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb. 16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’ and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

18 And Zacharias said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years.”

What we know as a fact is that Zechariah was praying and his prayer was answered by this word from Gabriel which was fulfilled. Now I know some think that Zechariah was praying for a son, but I have a different view. Gabriel told Zechariah many things were an answer to his prayer and yet he only took issue with having a son. Therefore I believe he was praying for everything else. He was praying that the Lord would come, He was praying that the Lord would make ready the people for the Lord's return, he was counseling families and so his prayer was that the hearts of the fathers would be turned to their children. He saw many who were disobedient at this time and was praying that they would be turned to the wisdom of the just.

But we often forget that God also is praying. God said of David "I have found a man after my own heart". So we know that God was looking, seeking for such a man. With Samuel we know that God was very upset with the house of Eli and so He needed a nazarite to replace Eli with. Samuel's mom needed a son and God also needed a son to be the priest. So when He answered her prayer she in turn answered His.

I think that God needed a family where John could be born and raised properly. He needed a priest for the same reason that Moses was the brother to Pharaoh. You may be the toughest guy on the planet but the one person who isn't intimidated by you is your brother. John the Baptist needed to take on the corrupt priesthood and it was best for him to grow up surrounded by it so he would fully know it. God needed a family praying for the Lord's return, praying that the Lord's way would be made straight, praying to make ready the people, that the disobedient would turn to the wisdom of the just and that the hearts of the fathers would be turned to their children.

Summary of Bible references on the Rapture

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