if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you
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Is this what they call "Gaslighting"? 
Gods not who made him do that he hardened pharoahs heart against repentance to show who the real God is
Its just like israel Later , they rejected him for generations worshipped false gods broke every command he’d given them became a wicked people that he abhored after this he blinded thier minds and eyes so they wouldn’t repent
In order to show the whole earth who the true God is
When we become wicked in our doings our hearts get hard and if we persist in rebellion long enough God Will show everyone else who God is why you don’t want to reject him
God is in no way arbitrary every man’s work is what they are held to pharoah was held to his , israel held to thiers and the world will be held to thiers
tonjist say God caused pharoah to do all the evil he did by hardening his heart isn’t the correct understanding
Or he arbitrarily blinded and hardened israel that’s also not correct he users even the wicked to teach the people who come after that there’s one God mighty beyond comprehension and the foolishness of a man who stands on opposition to him like pharoah a
he’s already done many evils the hardening was just that he wouldn’t repent when he saw the miracles because Gods plan was tomlewd them out of that situation and show them who God is
This parable says that being forgiven by the Lord should result in a response where you forgive others the way in which you have been forgiven.
This concept is fundamental to our prayer life "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us"
and it is a fundamental principle of righteousness
"As you have done it will be done to you"
Therefore forgiving others just as we have been forgiven is to practice righteousness.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
So yes, we are forgiven based solely on the work of the cross. But how can we discern who is truly saved, who is truly forgiven, and who are the liars?
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
This concept is fundamental to our prayer life "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us"
and it is a fundamental principle of righteousness
"As you have done it will be done to you"
Therefore forgiving others just as we have been forgiven is to practice righteousness.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
So yes, we are forgiven based solely on the work of the cross. But how can we discern who is truly saved, who is truly forgiven, and who are the liars?
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
Ok we walk by faith .. and there is allot of "feelings" and then nothing more then speculation which is fun to play with yet is not scripture or truth. Them some things you call sin are not sin at all. Yes we want God in every part of our life that's what He wants. Yet you will find so many times He will not answer or "what do you want". He does not ever force His ways will on anyone. Job.. Job said something 3 times that open the door that some forget and believe "God allowed". Then "Pharaoh" Yes says God hardened. Sure if we just read it and never dive into it. God already gave him every Chance to let them go but Pharaoh made that choice. God can never go against your my will.
I wonder what some truly think whats going on here. As if Satan takes a shot then God takes a shot. Satan takes three shots God takes three shots. Sorry that is not how this works here. We handed this world that God made gave us authority over to Satan. This is a fallen world and still under a curse. God does not just sit back and watch as His children are killed you name it. Like heading on over to say Iran. There are some things you can do but many things you can not do. They there have more rights then you do. We are not of this world this world is not our home. .. sorry getting lost here.
lol gaslighting. The problem is with the one holding the match.
I wonder what some truly think whats going on here. As if Satan takes a shot then God takes a shot. Satan takes three shots God takes three shots. Sorry that is not how this works here. We handed this world that God made gave us authority over to Satan. This is a fallen world and still under a curse. God does not just sit back and watch as His children are killed you name it. Like heading on over to say Iran. There are some things you can do but many things you can not do. They there have more rights then you do. We are not of this world this world is not our home. .. sorry getting lost here.
lol gaslighting. The problem is with the one holding the match.
a
your saying God didn’t understand about his death and resurrection ?
Its based on what’s God has said anyone not willing to reject what he said won’t try to reason it away instead they’ll start having faith
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
thats an offer from God for salvstion from death for our sins. The “ cross “ is the price he paid for that promise of remission of sins and the authority of his everlasting words whic give life and remove condemnation
that’s why he taught his children this at the core of his doctrine
“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
Luke 6:36-38 KJV
Do you see how grace is t just something God gave us ? But something we need to give others ? And how if we believe Jesus were nOt going to be condemned because he just declared it ?
If we won’t believe him he can never teach us anything that’s going to bless us
“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
We don’t have to say “ I reject that “ to reject it , we can also be very subtle by saying “ that’s not for you it’s for other people that’s not true “
a that’s also a rejection of what th e lord is saying and is certainly true and as irrevocable as his blood spent to purchase us from death because of sin
It shouldnt be considered a work to believe Jesus and accept that he’s the lord and what he’s saying is true nd forever and won’t change that’s really the foundation of salvstion what Jesus said , and what Jesus did to make it forever
Yoir argument is exactly what’s wrong with the new age grace doctrine ot requires one to insist Jesus words don’t apply to you
Paul Ellis is one of the founders of that idea it’s not a good idea
Jesus words are the source of faith and will be the judgement of all mankind until we start accepting what Jesus taught well Never understand what god taught about salvation
and then won’t understand Paul or the others
“So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
James 2:12-13 KJV
your saying God didn’t understand about his death and resurrection ?
Its based on what’s God has said anyone not willing to reject what he said won’t try to reason it away instead they’ll start having faith
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
thats an offer from God for salvstion from death for our sins. The “ cross “ is the price he paid for that promise of remission of sins and the authority of his everlasting words whic give life and remove condemnation
that’s why he taught his children this at the core of his doctrine
“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
Luke 6:36-38 KJV
Do you see how grace is t just something God gave us ? But something we need to give others ? And how if we believe Jesus were nOt going to be condemned because he just declared it ?
If we won’t believe him he can never teach us anything that’s going to bless us
“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
We don’t have to say “ I reject that “ to reject it , we can also be very subtle by saying “ that’s not for you it’s for other people that’s not true “
a that’s also a rejection of what th e lord is saying and is certainly true and as irrevocable as his blood spent to purchase us from death because of sin
It shouldnt be considered a work to believe Jesus and accept that he’s the lord and what he’s saying is true nd forever and won’t change that’s really the foundation of salvstion what Jesus said , and what Jesus did to make it forever
Yoir argument is exactly what’s wrong with the new age grace doctrine ot requires one to insist Jesus words don’t apply to you
Paul Ellis is one of the founders of that idea it’s not a good idea
Jesus words are the source of faith and will be the judgement of all mankind until we start accepting what Jesus taught well Never understand what god taught about salvation
and then won’t understand Paul or the others
“So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
James 2:12-13 KJV
Why would one verse in the Bible mean you can ignore all the others?
Yes, justification from sin comes when you receive the redemptive work Jesus did on the cross when He poured out His blood.
However, we are surrounded by wolves, false prophets, false teachers. How can you know who is who? We are told no lie is of the truth. We are told that we should forgive others as we have been forgiven. We pray that God would forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
If I see someone who claims to be a Christian refusing to forgive others, well, sorry, that is a major red flag.
Yes, justification from sin comes when you receive the redemptive work Jesus did on the cross when He poured out His blood.
However, we are surrounded by wolves, false prophets, false teachers. How can you know who is who? We are told no lie is of the truth. We are told that we should forgive others as we have been forgiven. We pray that God would forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
If I see someone who claims to be a Christian refusing to forgive others, well, sorry, that is a major red flag.
Hagar was mistreated by Sarah
9 The Angel of the Lord said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand.” 10 Then the Angel of the Lord said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.” 11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
“Behold, you are with child,
And you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name [d]Ishmael,
Because the Lord has heard your affliction.
My point in this thread is that God uses people to afflict us. His judgements are right in this and He does this in faithfulness.
So let's consider this, Sarah told Abraham to go into Hagar and when he did she conceived. You can't blame Hagar or Abraham for this, it was Sarah that did this. However once Hagar conceived Sarah became jealous and afflicted her. The Bible says that Sarah "dealt harshly with her". That is not right, or is it?
4 So he went in to Hagar, and she conceived. And when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress became despised in her eyes.
This was Hagar's sin. The Bible says "if you forgive those who trespass against you then your heavenly Father can also forgive you". Hagar sinned first, what Sarah did to Hagar let her know what it is like to be despised by others.
Now the question I have is did she forgive Sarah? Look at what God says about her son
He shall be a wild man;
His hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him.
And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
If you don't deal with sin in your life you can infect others with it. She despised her master and her son was ten times worse. Have you ever been around someone who always complains about their boss and everyone they work with is wrong and every few years they need to get another job and yet everywhere they work it is always the same story, everyone is wrong except them?
We forgive others so that God can forgive us. Having our sin forgiven is healing, it restores us, it puts a stop to it.
9 The Angel of the Lord said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand.” 10 Then the Angel of the Lord said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.” 11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
“Behold, you are with child,
And you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name [d]Ishmael,
Because the Lord has heard your affliction.
My point in this thread is that God uses people to afflict us. His judgements are right in this and He does this in faithfulness.
So let's consider this, Sarah told Abraham to go into Hagar and when he did she conceived. You can't blame Hagar or Abraham for this, it was Sarah that did this. However once Hagar conceived Sarah became jealous and afflicted her. The Bible says that Sarah "dealt harshly with her". That is not right, or is it?
4 So he went in to Hagar, and she conceived. And when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress became despised in her eyes.
This was Hagar's sin. The Bible says "if you forgive those who trespass against you then your heavenly Father can also forgive you". Hagar sinned first, what Sarah did to Hagar let her know what it is like to be despised by others.
Now the question I have is did she forgive Sarah? Look at what God says about her son
He shall be a wild man;
His hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him.
And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
If you don't deal with sin in your life you can infect others with it. She despised her master and her son was ten times worse. Have you ever been around someone who always complains about their boss and everyone they work with is wrong and every few years they need to get another job and yet everywhere they work it is always the same story, everyone is wrong except them?
We forgive others so that God can forgive us. Having our sin forgiven is healing, it restores us, it puts a stop to it.
Actually, that was the old economy, under the law; in the new economy, under
Grace, we "forgive others, Because Christ [Already] Forgave us" - ie:
Prophecy/Law:
Forgive others FIRST, THEN God Will Forgive!
(Matthew 6:14-15, 18:35; Mark 11:25-26; Luke 6:37)
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)
Mystery/GRACE!:
Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).
Grace, Peace, And JOY!...
Grace, we "forgive others, Because Christ [Already] Forgave us" - ie:
Prophecy/Law:
Forgive others FIRST, THEN God Will Forgive!
(Matthew 6:14-15, 18:35; Mark 11:25-26; Luke 6:37)
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)
Mystery/GRACE!:
"And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one
another, even as God for Christ's Sake Hath Forgiven you."
(Ephesians 4:32)
(Ephesians 4:32)
------------------------Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).
Grace, Peace, And JOY!...
These are two separate points. Yes, we forgive others because Christ already forgave us" However, Jesus, in the New covenant, instructed us to pray "Father forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us"
This is very similar to the "golden rule" that Jesus gave us "as you have done it will be done unto you".
This is very much part of the New Testament.
If you do not forgive others there is a warning, you can have a root of unforgiveness and bitterness and that can defile you.
This is very similar to the "golden rule" that Jesus gave us "as you have done it will be done unto you".
This is very much part of the New Testament.
If you do not forgive others there is a warning, you can have a root of unforgiveness and bitterness and that can defile you.
Leah was unloved
31 When the Lord saw that Leah was unloved, He opened her womb; but Rachel was barren. 32 So Leah conceived and bore a son, and she called his name Reuben; for she said, “The Lord has surely looked on my affliction. Now therefore, my husband will love me.”
If you read this story it seems there is no hint of sin from Leah. She had nothing to do with deceiving Jacob, this was her father's doing, and she desperately wanted to be loved by Jacob. So then how do you explain this, what is the sin that she needs to forgive so that God could forgive her? Read on!
God opened Leah's womb to have kids while at the same time making it so that Rachel did not bear any children. So this struggle begins, Rachel gives her maid to Jacob who bears two children, and Leah gives her maid to Jacob who also bears two children. And Leah had four children at this point. There are 8 babies running around, Reuben is the oldest, maybe six years old at this point, and Rachel is there no children.
14 Now Reuben went in the days of wheat harvest and found mandrakes in the field, and brought them to his mother Leah. Then Rachel said to Leah, “Please give me some of your son’s mandrakes.” 15 But she said to her, “Is it a small matter that you have taken away my husband? Would you take away my son’s mandrakes also?” And Rachel said, “Therefore he will lie with you tonight for your son’s mandrakes.”
Reuben goes out and picks some wildflowers for his mom. Rachel sees this, the aunt without any kids, and she asks Leah if she could have those flowers. Rachel has changed her attitude. Instead of competing with her sister, she decides she wants to be part of the family, to enjoy all the kids. She isn't the mother but she is the aunt. Instead of being jealous about what she doesn't have she wants to celebrate what she does have. This is when we discover Leah's unforgiveness in her heart. She married Jacob with "deceit" that made things hard enough, but then her sister comes and marries her husband a week later. Imagine how hard that would be in a normal marriage, but to be unloved because Jacob had been cheated and then Rachel comes and takes him away from her. So Rachel for the first time sees what happened through her sister's eyes. Leah had nothing to do with this, it was Laban, she is the victim. So she makes a deal with her sister, you let me be the loving aunt for your children and in exchange you get Jacob for the night. It sounds crass, but remember what happened, Jacob worked for 7 years to get Rachel and then was cheated. Now Leah can replay the wedding night without any deceit, she has bought him. The sin that Leah needed to be forgiven of is her unforgiveness to Rachel. As a result Rachel was "unloved", an aunt shunned from the family. As a result of Rachel having her heart enlarged to see that she could enjoy all the children and the whole family Rachel is considered the Mother of Israel. Her heart embraced all the children as her own.
After this the situation in the family was restored. Leah was loved, Jacob chose to be buried alongside Leah.
31 When the Lord saw that Leah was unloved, He opened her womb; but Rachel was barren. 32 So Leah conceived and bore a son, and she called his name Reuben; for she said, “The Lord has surely looked on my affliction. Now therefore, my husband will love me.”
If you read this story it seems there is no hint of sin from Leah. She had nothing to do with deceiving Jacob, this was her father's doing, and she desperately wanted to be loved by Jacob. So then how do you explain this, what is the sin that she needs to forgive so that God could forgive her? Read on!
God opened Leah's womb to have kids while at the same time making it so that Rachel did not bear any children. So this struggle begins, Rachel gives her maid to Jacob who bears two children, and Leah gives her maid to Jacob who also bears two children. And Leah had four children at this point. There are 8 babies running around, Reuben is the oldest, maybe six years old at this point, and Rachel is there no children.
14 Now Reuben went in the days of wheat harvest and found mandrakes in the field, and brought them to his mother Leah. Then Rachel said to Leah, “Please give me some of your son’s mandrakes.” 15 But she said to her, “Is it a small matter that you have taken away my husband? Would you take away my son’s mandrakes also?” And Rachel said, “Therefore he will lie with you tonight for your son’s mandrakes.”
Reuben goes out and picks some wildflowers for his mom. Rachel sees this, the aunt without any kids, and she asks Leah if she could have those flowers. Rachel has changed her attitude. Instead of competing with her sister, she decides she wants to be part of the family, to enjoy all the kids. She isn't the mother but she is the aunt. Instead of being jealous about what she doesn't have she wants to celebrate what she does have. This is when we discover Leah's unforgiveness in her heart. She married Jacob with "deceit" that made things hard enough, but then her sister comes and marries her husband a week later. Imagine how hard that would be in a normal marriage, but to be unloved because Jacob had been cheated and then Rachel comes and takes him away from her. So Rachel for the first time sees what happened through her sister's eyes. Leah had nothing to do with this, it was Laban, she is the victim. So she makes a deal with her sister, you let me be the loving aunt for your children and in exchange you get Jacob for the night. It sounds crass, but remember what happened, Jacob worked for 7 years to get Rachel and then was cheated. Now Leah can replay the wedding night without any deceit, she has bought him. The sin that Leah needed to be forgiven of is her unforgiveness to Rachel. As a result Rachel was "unloved", an aunt shunned from the family. As a result of Rachel having her heart enlarged to see that she could enjoy all the children and the whole family Rachel is considered the Mother of Israel. Her heart embraced all the children as her own.
After this the situation in the family was restored. Leah was loved, Jacob chose to be buried alongside Leah.
Affliction from a boss who changes your wages
38 These twenty years I have been with you; your ewes and your female goats have not miscarried their young, and I have not eaten the rams of your flock. 39 That which was torn by beasts I did not bring to you; I bore the loss of it. You required it from my hand, whether stolen by day or stolen by night. 40 There I was! In the day the drought consumed me, and the frost by night, and my sleep departed from my eyes. 41 Thus I have been in your house twenty years; I served you fourteen years for your two daughters, and six years for your flock, and you have changed my wages ten times. 42 Unless the God of my father, the God of Abraham and the Fear of Isaac, had been with me, surely now you would have sent me away empty-handed. God has seen my affliction and the labor of my hands, and rebuked you last night.”
If you read the story there is no sin from Jacob and yet Laban changed his wages ten times and it was a real affliction that God was aware of. Or was there?
Let's forgive Laban, what do we see. We learn that Jacob has discovered how to breed various traits into animals. If Laban changes the contract so that he gets all the sheep that are this or that coat then Jacob adjusts the breeding so that is what he gets. Changing this ten times was like running a science experiment over and over again to prove you have control of this and can determine what traits you want bred into the animals.
OK, so what sin of Jacob does God now forgive? Jacob had been given a dream of angels ascending and descending on a ladder to heaven to get treasures from heaven. Understanding genetics and how to breed various traits is one of the great treasures of all human history and certainly a great treasure to pass down to your children who are also shepherds. Where is Jacob's worship and praise? We see a grudging acknowledgement that God had "seen" his affliction. With Hagar God heard her complaints, but here God "sees" his affliction. This is like those who fast and make sure they "appear to be fasting". Jesus called them hypocrites. We are all cut from the same block of cheese and unless we see our sin and forgive others we will not be healed from this.
38 These twenty years I have been with you; your ewes and your female goats have not miscarried their young, and I have not eaten the rams of your flock. 39 That which was torn by beasts I did not bring to you; I bore the loss of it. You required it from my hand, whether stolen by day or stolen by night. 40 There I was! In the day the drought consumed me, and the frost by night, and my sleep departed from my eyes. 41 Thus I have been in your house twenty years; I served you fourteen years for your two daughters, and six years for your flock, and you have changed my wages ten times. 42 Unless the God of my father, the God of Abraham and the Fear of Isaac, had been with me, surely now you would have sent me away empty-handed. God has seen my affliction and the labor of my hands, and rebuked you last night.”
If you read the story there is no sin from Jacob and yet Laban changed his wages ten times and it was a real affliction that God was aware of. Or was there?
Let's forgive Laban, what do we see. We learn that Jacob has discovered how to breed various traits into animals. If Laban changes the contract so that he gets all the sheep that are this or that coat then Jacob adjusts the breeding so that is what he gets. Changing this ten times was like running a science experiment over and over again to prove you have control of this and can determine what traits you want bred into the animals.
OK, so what sin of Jacob does God now forgive? Jacob had been given a dream of angels ascending and descending on a ladder to heaven to get treasures from heaven. Understanding genetics and how to breed various traits is one of the great treasures of all human history and certainly a great treasure to pass down to your children who are also shepherds. Where is Jacob's worship and praise? We see a grudging acknowledgement that God had "seen" his affliction. With Hagar God heard her complaints, but here God "sees" his affliction. This is like those who fast and make sure they "appear to be fasting". Jesus called them hypocrites. We are all cut from the same block of cheese and unless we see our sin and forgive others we will not be healed from this.
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Joseph was hated and betrayed
52 And the name of the second he called Ephraim: “For God has caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.”
We should all know the story, sold into slavery by his brothers and then framed by his bosse's wife and sent to prison. You would think that he would be very angry, bitter old man. But instead he tells his brothers that these things were "God's doing".
Genesis 45:5 But now, do not therefore be grieved or angry with yourselves because you sold me here; for God sent me before you to preserve life.
He was mistreated worse than Hagar was. He was unloved worse than Leah was. And he was mistreated by his boss worse than Jacob was. But he had a vision, he saw that God was working all things to good for those who love God and are called according to purpose. He made sure no one heard him complaining which is why the guards appreciated him so much and he made sure no one saw him "fasting" which is why he cleaned up before going to Pharaoh. He also saw that he had received a double blessing.
Clearly he forgave his brothers and his former boss. He saw they were merely tools used by God to accomplish His purpose which was the salvation of mankind.
52 And the name of the second he called Ephraim: “For God has caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.”
We should all know the story, sold into slavery by his brothers and then framed by his bosse's wife and sent to prison. You would think that he would be very angry, bitter old man. But instead he tells his brothers that these things were "God's doing".
Genesis 45:5 But now, do not therefore be grieved or angry with yourselves because you sold me here; for God sent me before you to preserve life.
He was mistreated worse than Hagar was. He was unloved worse than Leah was. And he was mistreated by his boss worse than Jacob was. But he had a vision, he saw that God was working all things to good for those who love God and are called according to purpose. He made sure no one heard him complaining which is why the guards appreciated him so much and he made sure no one saw him "fasting" which is why he cleaned up before going to Pharaoh. He also saw that he had received a double blessing.
Clearly he forgave his brothers and his former boss. He saw they were merely tools used by God to accomplish His purpose which was the salvation of mankind.