Jesus is God

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

AndrewMorgan

Active member
Jul 10, 2022
375
81
28
John 8:58...Before Abraham was, I am...

Interestingly, the passage in the Greek Septuagint says "I am the 'One' or 'Being'. Tell them 'The 'One' or 'Being' has sent you.". This confused me as, until I checked, I assumed the "regular" OT said the same thing, as I'd been led to believe the Septuagint (as it's readily available) was the same source that Paul used to teach the non-Hebrew-speaking believers.
I've since come to understand, strangely, that this is contested.
There still seems to be some mystery re. this issue.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
Interestingly, the passage in the Greek Septuagint says "I am the 'One' or 'Being'. Tell them 'The 'One' or 'Being' has sent you.". This confused me as, until I checked, I assumed the "regular" OT said the same thing, as I'd been led to believe the Septuagint (as it's readily available) was the same source that Paul used to teach the non-Hebrew-speaking believers.
I've since come to understand, strangely, that this is contested.
There still seems to be some mystery re. this issue.
The translators didn't have to translate it as "I am". They could have chose "Before Abraham was, I exist..." Bias can effect the way something is translated. I think it's quite evident in the KJV.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,360
6,659
113
62
Interestingly, the passage in the Greek Septuagint says "I am the 'One' or 'Being'. Tell them 'The 'One' or 'Being' has sent you.". This confused me as, until I checked, I assumed the "regular" OT said the same thing, as I'd been led to believe the Septuagint (as it's readily available) was the same source that Paul used to teach the non-Hebrew-speaking believers.
I've since come to understand, strangely, that this is contested.
There still seems to be some mystery re. this issue.
Not for me there isn't. Doubt is the tool of the evil one...faith is the evidence of the believer.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,360
6,659
113
62
i am always caught up short when i remember doubt is also a sin.

God help me.
God help us all to remember the work of God is to believe...John 6:29...and faith is the only way to please God...Hebrews 11.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,927
1,272
113
God help us all to remember the work of God is to believe...John 6:29...and faith is the only way to please God...Hebrews 11.
aren't we just so dependent on the Lord for absolutely everything?

and isn't He just so wonderful to supply? Glory to God!
 
Dec 16, 2022
192
13
18
Sorry, i didn't read through your thread so some of this my be duplicate:

Was The Transfiguration not enough of a hint?
Why do we worship The Lamb in Revelation?

Tit 3:4-5 ESV
But when the goodness and loving kindness of GOD OUR SAVIOR APPEARED,
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

John 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

CHRIST was planting this to Reference after His Advent. "I AM THAT I AM" ...He is THAT I AM ...the one that Talked to Moses.

[Exo 3:14 KJV]
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Are they somehow blind to It saying "The mighty God"?
Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Why in the world would Scripture say anyone needs to come in flesh ...unless It was a Deity?
1Jn_4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn_1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Guess who is being Worshipped here:
John 9:38
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

1Ti 1:16 but I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience for an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.
1Ti 1:17 To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

How are "all things" by JESUS without Him being a Deity?
1 Cor. 8:5-6 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Rev. 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

Isaiah 40:10
Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

[Act 17:23 KJV]
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
[Act 17:24 KJV]
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Isaiah 40:7-8 KJV — The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
Matthew 24:35 KJV — Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

LORD JESUS CHRIST IS GOD and has A KINGDOM:
Psalm 100:2-5 KJV — Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing. Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture. Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name. For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.
2 Timothy 2:19 ASV
[19] Howbeit the firm foundation of God standeth, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his: and, Let every one that nameth the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.

John 14:8-13 KJV — Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

———————————

God said their is no Saviour besides Him, Jesus is our Saviour, so that means Jesus is God.

Isaiah‬ 43:11-12‬ KJV‬‬
“I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God.

Luke‬ 1:47‬ KJV‬‬
“And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Luke‬ 2:11‬ KJV‬‬
“For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.”

John‬ 4:42‬ KJV‬‬
“And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Philippians‬ 3:20‬ KJV‬‬
“For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy‬ 2:3‬ KJV‬‬
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1 Timothy‬ 4:10
“For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.”

2 Timothy‬ 1:10‬ KJV‬‬
“But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:”

Titus‬ 1:3‬ KJV‬‬
“But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

Titus‬ 2:13‬ KJV‬‬
“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Titus‬ 3:4‬ KJV‬‬
“But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,”

2 Peter‬ 1:1
“Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Peter‬ 2:20‬ KJV‬‬
“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.”

2 Peter‬ 3:2‬ KJV‬‬
“That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

2 Peter‬ 3:18‬ KJV‬‬
“But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.”

Jude‬ 1:25‬ KJV‬‬
“To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.”

How was JESUS before Abraham?
John 8:51-59 KJV — Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
3,218
1,614
113
Midwest

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,197
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
Interestingly, the passage in the Greek Septuagint says "I am the 'One' or 'Being'. Tell them 'The 'One' or 'Being' has sent you.". This confused me as, until I checked, I assumed the "regular" OT said the same thing, as I'd been led to believe the Septuagint (as it's readily available) was the same source that Paul used to teach the non-Hebrew-speaking believers.
I've since come to understand, strangely, that this is contested.
There still seems to be some mystery re. this issue.
Based on the reaction of the listeners, there is no mystery, Jesus clearly said he is God.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,197
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
58 3004 [e]
58 eipen
58 εἶπεν
58 Said
58 V-AIA-3S

846 [e]
autois
αὐτοῖς
to them
PPro-DM3P

2424 [e]
Iēsous
Ἰησοῦς ,
Jesus
N-NMS

281 [e]
Amēn
Ἀμὴν
Truly
Heb

281 [e]
amēn
ἀμὴν
truly
Heb

3004 [e]
legō
λέγω
I say
V-PIA-1S

4771 [e]
hymin
ὑμῖν ,
to you
PPro-D2P

4250 [e]
prin
πρὶν
Before
Adv

11 [e]
Abraam
Ἀβραὰμ
Abraham
N-AMS

1096 [e]
genesthai
γενέσθαι ,
was
V-ANM

1473 [e]
egō
ἐγὼ
I
PPro-N1S

1510 [e]
eimi

εἰμί .

"For except ye believe (ean gar mê pisteusête). Negative condition of third class with ean mê and ingressive aorist active subjunctive of pisteuô, "For unless ye come to believe." That I am he (hoti egô eimi). Indirect discourse, but with no word in the predicate after the copula eimi. Jesus can mean either "that I am from above" (verse John 8:23), "that I am the one sent from the Father or the Messiah" (John 7:18, 28), "that I am the Light of the World" (John 8:12), "that I am the Deliverer from the bondage of sin" (John 8:28, 31, 36), "that I am" without supplying a predicate in the absolute sense as the Jews (Deut 32:39) used the language of Jehovah (cf. Isa 43:10 where the very words occur hina pisteusête--hoti egô eimi). The phrase egô eimi occurs three times here (John 8:24, 28, 58) and also in John 13:19. Jesus seems to claim absolute divine being as in John 8:58. " A.T. Robertson
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,360
6,659
113
62
58 3004 [e]
58 eipen
58 εἶπεν
58 Said
58 V-AIA-3S

846 [e]
autois
αὐτοῖς
to them
PPro-DM3P

2424 [e]
Iēsous
Ἰησοῦς ,
Jesus
N-NMS

281 [e]
Amēn
Ἀμὴν
Truly
Heb

281 [e]
amēn
ἀμὴν
truly
Heb

3004 [e]
legō
λέγω
I say
V-PIA-1S

4771 [e]
hymin
ὑμῖν ,
to you
PPro-D2P

4250 [e]
prin
πρὶν
Before
Adv

11 [e]
Abraam
Ἀβραὰμ
Abraham
N-AMS

1096 [e]
genesthai
γενέσθαι ,
was
V-ANM

1473 [e]
egō
ἐγὼ
I
PPro-N1S


1510 [e]
eimi

εἰμί .

"For except ye believe (ean gar mê pisteusête). Negative condition of third class with ean mê and ingressive aorist active subjunctive of pisteuô, "For unless ye come to believe." That I am he (hoti egô eimi). Indirect discourse, but with no word in the predicate after the copula eimi. Jesus can mean either "that I am from above" (verse John 8:23), "that I am the one sent from the Father or the Messiah" (John 7:18, 28), "that I am the Light of the World" (John 8:12), "that I am the Deliverer from the bondage of sin" (John 8:28, 31, 36), "that I am" without supplying a predicate in the absolute sense as the Jews (Deut 32:39) used the language of Jehovah (cf. Isa 43:10 where the very words occur hina pisteusête--hoti egô eimi). The phrase egô eimi occurs three times here (John 8:24, 28, 58) and also in John 13:19. Jesus seems to claim absolute divine being as in John 8:58. " A.T. Robertson
There is little doubt what Jesus was claiming either in His words directly or in the response of the Pharisees. One doesn't have to accept the deity of Christ, but I don't see hot they can say no such claim is proffered.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,197
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
Verse 6
Fell to the ground (epesan chamai). Second aorist active indicative of piptô with first aorist ending (-an). This recoil made them stumble. But why did they step back? Was it the former claim of Jesus (I am, egô eimi) to be on an equality with God (John 8:58; John 13:19) or mere embarrassment and confusion or supernatural power exerted by Jesus?

John uses this imperfect of eimi to be which conveys no idea of origin for God or for the Logos, simply continuous existence. Quite a different verb (egeneto, became) appears in verse John 1:14 for the beginning of the Incarnation of the Logos. See the distinction sharply drawn in John 8:58 "before Abraham came (genesthai) I am" (eimi, timeless existence).

Verse 58
Before Abraham was (prin Abraam genesthai). Usual idiom with prin in positive sentence with infinitive (second aorist middle of ginomai) and the accusative of general reference, "before coming as to Abraham," "before Abraham came into existence or was born." I am (egô eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God. The contrast between genesthai (entrance into existence of Abraham) and eimi (timeless being) is complete. See the same contrast between en in John 1:1 and egeneto in John 1:14. See the contrast also in Ps 90:2 between God (ei, art) and the mountains (genêthênai). See the same use of eimi in John 6:20; John 9:9; John 8:24, 28; John 18:6.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.grace-ebooks.com/librar... The New Testament Vol 5 John and Hebrews.pdf
 

ThewindBlows

Active member
Sep 30, 2019
231
91
28

I showed you Jesus said "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

But you changed the subject, Take what God says

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
I showed you Jesus said "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

But you changed the subject, Take what God says

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
the next verse says the Son has a God:

Hebrews 1:9
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
the next verse says the Son has a God:

Hebrews 1:9
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
I might add, the Bible does not teach polytheism. There is one God.
 
Dec 17, 2022
36
7
8
With all due respect, discussing the deity of Yeshua or Jesus is like beating a dead horse. That subject has been discussed since the first century C.E. It took religious men 425 years to finally decide whether Yeshua was God or man, much blood was spilled over this subject.
There were two competing religious thoughts during that period.
One was "Homoousian" which is a Christian theological term, most notably used in the Nicene Creed for describing Jesus (God the Son) as "same in being" or "same in essence" with God the Father.
The other was "Arianism" which (Areianismós) is a Christological doctrine first attributed to Arius(c. AD 256–336) a Christian presbyter from Alexandria, Egypt. Arian theology holds that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who was begotten by God the Father with the difference that the Son of God did not always exist but was begotten within time by God the Father, therefore Jesus was not co-eternal with God the Father.
Of the roughly 300 bishops in attendance at the Council of Nicaea, two bishops did not sign the Nicene Creed that condemned Arianism. Constantine the Great also ordered a penalty of death for those who refused to surrender the Arian writings.

Death to the Arians

"If any writing composed by Arius should be found, it should be handed over to the flames, so that not only will the wickedness of his teaching be obliterated, but nothing will be left even to remind anyone of him. And I hereby make a public order, that if anyone should be discovered to have a hidden writing composed by Arius, and not to have immediately brought it forward and destroyed it by fire, his penalty shall be death. As soon as he is discovered in this offense, he shall be submitted for capital punishment.”
- Edict by Emperor Constantine against Arians


It’s interesting to note that these doctrines were birthed in the Roman Church, soon to be the Roman Catholic Church. Most will not admit that Protestantism was birthed out of her mother the Roman Catholic Church. Paul said the true believer is birthed from Jerusalem which is above who is the mother of us all, including Yeshua. She is the free woman. Galatians 4:26
The first believers were all Jewish and it is said they were called people of “the way” not Christians. It took ten years after Yeshua was crucified before they realized that the way was also open to the Gentiles, thanks to Peter’s vision of the sheet with all manner of four-footed beasts, fowl, and creeping things which God used to reveal to Peter the arrival of the Gentile Cornelius.
If the disciples were trying to convince the Jew that Yeshua was the anointed one, it would seem that they would use scriptures which concerned the coming Messiah born from the seed of David according to the flesh (natural seed of David) and there are multiple scriptures which allude to this truth. In those times, it was well known the Romans Gods would come down and impregnate a virgin who would produce a god-man. Alexander the Great’s mother proclaimed that Zeus came down and impregnated her and Alexander himself actually believed this so. Imperial divinity was accompanied by suitable miraculous birth stories, with Augustus being fathered by the god Apollo while his human mother slept, and her human husband being granted a dream in which he saw the sun rise from her womb, and inscriptions even described the news of the divine imperial birth as evangelia, the gospel.
"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. "Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;" Acts 2:29-30 KJV
This brings to question the virgin birth story. Only two of the gospels talk about a virgin birth. If a virgin birth of Yeshua was such an important part of his story, it would seem it would have been mentioned and expounded on in the writings of the Paul and the others, yet there is no reference to this at all in their writings. Mary was only mentioned once in the first chapter of Acts.
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
3,218
1,614
113
Midwest
With all due respect, discussing the deity of Yeshua or Jesus is like beating a dead horse.
Amen! Time to move on from "bad works" to "gold, silver, and precious
stones,"
eh? And:

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided
(+ I and II).

Grace, Peace, And JOY!...