Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4

[Bob-Carabbio]

All totally unimportant.
We are, after all, talking "Eschatology" which is nothing more that a "religious term" for "Rank speculation" about which we know NOTHING
Luke 19:13 says to "Occupy till I come". That's what I intend to do - not giving a second though about a "Catching away" (which will have to HURRY UP if I'm to be still alive at the time). Otherwise, I'll find myself in Heaven because I croaked naturally, and have a good laugh about all the silly "theology" I'd bothered with in physical life.

Could be there'll be a "trumpet sound", and the folks that "invented" the rapture doctrines will be proven to have heard GOD'S WORD about the issue. The ones that were convinced that it was all garbage will be proven wrong, but "get to go" anyway if they're born again.

It's all just "Theology" after all, and has nothing to do with how we live out our lives.

The Assemblies of God used to threaten us regularly with the "Rapture" because if we had "Unconfessed SIN in our lives", we "wouldn't get to go", and have to go through the "tribulation" (first 3.5 years are O.K., but the second 3.5 years will be rough).

Folks in the '70s used to sell "Tribulation food" - 3.5, or 7 years supply of dehydrated provisions. if you were a "Mid-tribber" you only had to buy 3.5 years - BUT in case your "Eschatology" was WRONG you should probably buy 7 years instead!!!

What they didn't include was the shotgun to blow away your starving Christian neighbors, when they tried to get your food.

But more importantly, It's lunch time.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

One thing I wanted to add to my last post but forgot:

Notice Paul's oft-repeated / oft-used terms "FAITH" "LOVE/CHARITY" and "HOPE" (throughout his epistles)... this last one refers to our "[sure / certain] HOPE" (pertaining to the "glorification" aspect of our salvation--i.e. when we get our gloified / perfected bodies at the time of "our Rapture"... and that goes for "the DEAD IN Christ" as well, who will "rise first" [be "bodily RESURRECTED"] before we'll be caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM at the same moment, in glorified bodies [ALL of the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY]);

Notice that in the intro section of his FIRST letter to the Thessalonians, in the first chpt there, he commends their "FAITH... LOVE... and HOPE" (vv.2-4)... but then notice, in his SECOND letter to them (where he is providing a CORRECTIVE), he only starts out mentioning (in v.3) their "FAITH... and LOVE/CHARITY" (NO MENTION of the "HOPE" here!) before he gets into the body of the letter providing this "corrective"... BECAUSE the corrective is related to their [/our] "HOPE" (i.e. glorified bodies at "our Rapture" point in time) DUE TO their "hope" having been hindered by "false information" coming from some source (possibly even claiming to be letters from Paul), per v.2... a notion that [negatively] IMPACTS their (and our) "HOPE" (a DOCTRINE having been taught to them--See also v.15 contrasted with v.2)--"HOPE"!!


Something Paul himself states we should "PUT ON... for an HELMET" (this "helmet is PURPOSEFUL!!)... "the HOPE of salvation" (an ESCHATOLOGICAL "salvation," per his Thess CONTEXTS)



(The SUBJECT matter of the "false claim" is NOT "[purporting] that JESUS HIMSELF is present [perfect indicative]"... as many INCORRECTLY suggest of this passage, v.2)

 

[cv5]

All totally unimportant.
We are, after all, talking "Eschatology" which is nothing more that a "religious term" for "Rank speculation" about which we know NOTHING

Is that so? Well....I think that I should inform you that Paul was with the Thessalonians for at most a few weeks.....maybe a couple of months at best. That about all.

In this brief span of time, he prioritized eschatology. Confusion about it was evidently a big problem, which Paul settled.

In fact, codified eschatology will be that which will ignite belief during the 70th week IMO. For Israelite and gentile alike.

 

[cv5]

(The SUBJECT matter of the "false claim" is NOT "[purporting] that JESUS HIMSELF is present [perfect indicative]"... as many INCORRECTLY suggest of this passage, v.2)

Evidently there was more than one troublemaker proclaiming similar heresies....

2Ti 2:18 - Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Could be there'll be a "trumpet sound", and the folks that "invented" the rapture doctrines will be proven to have heard GOD'S WORD about the issue.

Since the Lord Jesus Christ Himself was the one to first speak of the Rapture, your mockery reveals complete ignorance about this subject. Yes a trumpet will also sound at that time, since this event is in fact the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church. And the trump of God or "the last trump" has nothing in common with the trumpets which herald divine judgment.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

My post-trib approach is different from the pre-trib approach. What I do is look at the different passages, look at what they teach, and compare similarities.

That can be okay, unless there are numerous DIFFERENCES that cannot be reconciled (without contradictions or by ignoring vital parts)

What pre-tribbers do is compare scripture with a set of pre-trib concepts that exist outside of scripture that have no support from scripture.

Completely UNtrue.

I get that this is your "impression" of pre-trib. (Flawed though it may be. )

Pre-tribbers think Jesus comes back an extra time before the tribulation or...

What do your words "COME BACK" involve, as you see it?

Because pretribbers say (like scripture itself states) that He shall "DESCEND"... but THAT is "[to] THE MEETING OF THE LORD [in the air]" (where His "presence [/parousia]" WILL BE LOCATED when it pertains to "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"--no one else is involved! JUST US)... it is NOT His "RETURN" to the earth when "EVERY EYE" shall see Him; rather, what happens NEXT is that "God shall SEND TO THEM strong delusion, THAT THEY should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" (during a period of time!)

...or that the 'coming' is some not-exactly-literal coming of a seven year time period.

Here, you are CONFLATING "the coming [/presence / parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ" (His PERSON) with that of the coming of "THE DAY OF THE LORD" (a TIME-PERIOD; an earthly-located TIME-PERIOD involving JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the EARTH while Jesus is instigating these from His position IN HEAVEN--the DOTL earthly TIME-PERIOD [distinct from His PERSON / HE HIMSELF] commences at the FIRST SEAL / the FIRST ONE of the "beginning of birth PANGS" which IS the "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" of the man of sin, 2Th2:9a (corresponding with other passages telling of the START of that specific, future, LIMITED time period [we call "the Trib"]... the aspect OF the "DOTL" which is "DARK / DARKNESS [/ IN THE NIGHT]" aka the "7-yr" period leading up to His/Christ's "RETURN" to the earth Rev19 [the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect OF "the DOTL"]... and "the DOTL" continues clear on to the END of the 1000 yr MK age, also--the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" aspect OF it)

They think.... without any scripture to back it up.... that the rapture is pre-trib. Therefore, they take these two passages and assign them to different points of time.

By your conflating "the coming / presence / parousia of the Lord Jesus Christ" (His PERSON) with that of the coming of "THE DAY OF THE LORD" (an earthly TIME-PERIOD), and saying that pretribbers are getting confused on this point of "parousia" (re: Jesus / His PERSON), I am gathering that it is not PREtribbers who are confused... and that you haven't grasped what pre-tribbers have actually SAID on these two distinct items (His PERSON is not the TIME-PERIOD, and the TIME-PERIOD is not His PERSON--Pretribbers are NOT confused on this issue, and do not inadvertently CONFLATE them so as to consider these two DISTINCT items to be basically the equivalent of each other, when they are not.)

And that is ASIDE from the matter of the word "parousia" used regarding Jesus [Himself], which, depending on CONTEXT, can be either "IN THE AIR" (involving "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"--no one else will be in attendance!) or Returning to THE EARTH (what we commonly call His Second Coming to the earth Rev19--when, as Col3 states "...then shall ye also appear WITH [G4862-UNIONed-with] Him in glory"!!!), one or the other. But again, that word can be used (and IS) of both / each...

That word ("parousia") is also used re: "the man of sin" too, as I mentioned above. Of course, most ppl understand he (the man of sin) will be located on the earth at the time being spoken of...

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Since the Lord Jesus Christ Himself was the one to first speak of the Rapture, your mockery reveals complete ignorance about this subject. Yes a trumpet will also sound at that time, since this event is in fact the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church. And the trump of God or "the last trump" has nothing in common with the trumpets which herald divine judgment.

According to your "eschatology", anyway. Time will tell. IF I'm going in the "Rapture", it had better be soon (tonight would be fine - old age is no fun at all).

 

[oyster67]

Would you say John being told to 'Come up hither' is the strongest Biblical evidence for placing the timing of the rapture of the church before the tribulation?

Just one piece of the pie. Another piece is the dysfunctionality of post-trib-ism.

1.) We go up. (Along with the bodies of the dead in Christ.)
2.) The Mariage is in Heaven.
3.) We come down with Him. (Not a rapture.)

All these things are Biblical and do not work with post-trib-ism. There is no way to go up in post-trib-ism. The Bible says that God has prepared a place for the Bride in Heaven. (John 14.)

John 14:3
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

 

[presidente]

Just one piece of the pie. Another piece is the dysfunctionality of post-trib-ism.

1.) We go up. (Along with the bodies of the dead in Christ.)
2.) The Mariage is in Heaven.
3.) We come down with Him. (Not a rapture.)

The Bible doesn't teach that the marriage is in heaven. The marriage is announced right before the Rider on a white horse passage, which is right before the 'first resurrection' passage. Pretrib has the resurrection of the dead in Christ before 'the first resurrection' passage. That makes no sense.

The trip from the sky up into heaven and waiting for seven years to come back is not in the Bible. Waiting seven years doesn't make it any more 'the rapture.' 'Rapture' means 'caught up'. It doesn't mean the pre-trib rapture theory. Doctrine comes from scripture not from

Being 'caught up' together to meet the Lord in the air is the rapture.

All these things are Biblical and do not work with post-trib-ism. There is no way to go up in post-trib-ism.

Yes there is. It says we are raptured up to meet the Lord in the air, it doesn't say raptured up from the air to meet the Lord further up in the heavens.

The Bible says that God has prepared a place for the Bride in Heaven. (John 14.)

John 14:3
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Don't you believe the spirits of the disembodied dead are with the Lord? The Bible also tells of how after the thousand years the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven like a bride adorned for her husband.

I Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Matthew 24 sets the COMING of the Son of man after the tribulation. II Thessalonians 2 tells us the lawless one will be destroyed at the brighteness of the Lord's COMING.

 

[presidente]

Christ doesn’t return to earth at the gathering of his body, but catches his body up in the clouds. After, the JSOC occurs in heaven before the marriage of the Lamb.

So, are you saying you do not believe that Jesus gathers His body when He snatches His body up? The Bible says 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Show me where the Bible teaches that we will stand before the judgment seat of Chrest before the sceoond coming. Show me where BIBLE teaches that the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place before the second coming. Why is the fact that the marriage supper of the Lamb is come right before the second coming and resurrection passages?

If pretrib is true, why don't we read about Jesus coming back twice, rapturing the church before the tribulation, etc. in the Bible? Why is it based on a string of weak and tenuous arguments?

 

[presidente]

I said "THE WRATH COMING" refers to what will unfold upon the earth DURING a certain, specific, future, LIMITED "TIME PERIOD" (even Satan's "having great wrath" is specified as to its timing and duration). I did not say the word "wrath" is defined as "time period".

SO what? I am concerned with what the Bible [teach]es NOT with what you think about time periods. These type of statements (hard to read because of the caps, colors, parentheses, etc) are not evidence for pretrib. (Why don't you just cut random-sized letters out of a newspaper to use in yoru messages like a serial killer leaving a message for the police?)

[just like the "WRATH [upon this people]" spoken of in Lk21:23,21 referred to what occurred back in the events surrounding 70ad (during a specific TIME PERIOD), correlating with what Jesus had said in Matt22:7 "the king... WAS WROTH and..." describing the events surrounding 70ad]

After mentioning wrath in Luke 24, He says to look up your head for your redemption draweth night. There are many similarities to Matthew 24, including the reference to the Son of man coming, and Matthew 24 is addressed to His disciples.[/QUOTE]

 

[presidente]

Except "pretribbers" do NOT say Jesus "RETURNS" TWO times.

It is consistent with the terminology many pretribbers use.

(At least not the pretribbers who've been taught / learned correctly).

Why would they be pretribbers then?

I've pointed out how the word "return" (re: Jesus) speaks of His Second Coming to the earth time-slot (Rev19):

I Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (NKIJV)

In II Thessalonians 1, Jesus gives the CHURCH rest from TRIBULATION when he COMES.

Because "parousia" has a context wherever it is used (of Jesus)... so it depends on "WHERE" His "parousia / presence" is located... and it depends on WHOM that particular instance INVOLVES / relates to / pertains to (where His "presence / parousia" will be located, and to what purpose); and it cannot contradict other related passages (that's something else which should be taken into consideration... which we've covered a bit in this thread already).

There is a contradiction with pretrib and II Thessalonians 1, mentioned above. Where is there any contradiction between the idea that Jesus comes back and gathers they that are His after the tribulation? If we go with what is explictly written, that is the conclusion we come to.

Even you acknowlege that Paul is not merely covering ONE particular point in time [i.e. a singular 24-hr day] in what all he is covering in his 2 Thessalonians 2 context. (Let the reader recognize that Paul is telling "how/when" his verse 1 Subject "FITS" time-wise/sequence-wise IN RELATION TO the Subject of [the false claim of] verse 2--which are distinct things, not the SAME thing as many ppl incorrectly suppose)

Your sentence is too convoluted to get what you are trying to say, exactly. The brackets and fonts don't help. Trying to stretch and squeeze the interpretation of a passage like II Thessalonians 2 to figure out a way it could possibly fit with pretrib is not the same thing as showing Biblical evidence for pretrib.

Where does the Bible say that the rapture occurs before the tribulation?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Where does the Bible say that the rapture occurs before the tribulation?

Where does the Bible say that it is a textbook which will give all the naysayers the answers they want?

2 PETER 3: THERE ARE SOME THINGS HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD BY NAYSAYERS
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[presidente]

I would call it "compelling". Very much so.

Not relevant to the pretrb v. postrib discussion, though.

Paul never speaks of the Church suffering wrath BTW. Not once. You would think he should be screaming bloody murder warning about the coming wrath of God upon the Church. Not so.

Revelation does not say that the saints suffer the wrath __of God_. That is the wrath from which we are saved. Men or the Devil can be angry at us in the current age. Has no one ever been angry at you? Do you think pagan Roman persecutors, Muhammadan persecutors, or Communist persecutors have never been angry at Christians for their faith?

1Th 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Th 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

2Th 1:7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Look up 'troubled' and 'tribulation' in Greek and see the similarities. The Lord Jesus returns and gives the church rest from tribulation.

 

[presidente]

Where does the Bible say that it is a textbook which will give all the naysayers the answers they want?

2 PETER 3: THERE ARE SOME THINGS HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD BY NAYSAYERS
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Don't wrest the scriptures, then.

I believe the Bible. I don't treat pretrib as axiomatically true as you seem to. It is not pretrib doctrine plus scripture for me. I consider pretrib doctrine in light of scripture. In the Bible Jesus tells His disciples of the coming of the Son of man, which happens after the tribulation, and exhorts them to be prepared for it.

All you've got is posturing and threats. Your misusing scripture, even scripture about wresting scripture, to support ideas not supported by scripture. The Bible doesn't back up your eschatology. Why don't you engage with the subject matter?

My guess is because you can't support your case from scripture. You just treat it as axiomatic that your chosen eschatology is right.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You just treat it as axiomatic that your chosen eschatology is right.

It is indeed axiomatic (1) that the Resurrection/Rapture will take place in God's time and (2) that it has absolutely no connection to any tribulation period. Just like the rapture of Enoch, the 7th from Adam, who left the earth long before the Flood: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Heb 11:5)

1. Does the Church "please God"? Yes

2. On what grounds? On the grounds of the finished work of Christ.

3. Is the Church preserved from God's wrath? Absolutely

4. On what grounds? On the grounds that Christ took God's wrath upon Himself.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

axiomatic that your chosen eschatology is right

Yes, The Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided is axiomatic, because that is the
only conclusion we can make From Comparing All The Scriptures:

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II

Amen.
-------------------
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

 

[oyster67]

Matthew 24 sets the COMING of the Son of man after the tribulation. II Thessalonians 2 tells us the lawless one will be destroyed at the brighteness of the Lord's COMING.

I agree with you on all things concerning the Second Coming and the Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints, but I believe that the Rapture is a separate event. It appears that we have stated our views thoroughly, so we shall just have to accept our difference. I have nothing new to add, but I do appreciate our discussions. I wish you Godspeed and a blessed new year.

 

[presidente]

A separate event based on __what scripture that teaches it_? Yhat is what is lacking on the pretrib side of the discussion.

 

[oyster67]

A separate event based on __what scripture that teaches it_? Yhat is what is lacking on the pretrib side of the discussion.

Yhat is lacking on the post-trib side of the discussion is any mention of a catching-up event at the time of the Second Coming. Yhat we have at the Second Coming is a coming-down event.