Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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Cameron143

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a rose by any other name. Denominations have their own vocabularies. Like it or not, all of humanity lives on because of GOD'S GRACE, since we're ALL under sentence of death since our first SIN, and remain so until we place the FAITH the God gives us (Eph 2:8,9) in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross (Isa 53).
I don't disagree but the Bible speaks of forbearance and longsuffering in relation to God foregoing judgment
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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a rose by any other name. Denominations have their own vocabularies. Like it or not, all of humanity lives on because of GOD'S GRACE, since we're ALL under sentence of death since our first SIN, and remain so until we place the FAITH the God gives us (Eph 2:8,9) in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross (Isa 53).
We are all under condemnation from birth.

So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one
act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. Romans 5:18


The natural man needs to be born again of the Spirit. If not, he passes into the second death.
 

rogerg

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Belief comes first. Even we have believed in Jesus Christ. Why? That we might be justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. God’s righteousness is by faith of Jesus Christ. It’s s unto all and upon all them that believe, Jew or Gentile.

Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Righteousness of God is by the faith of Christ. The "upon all them that believe" is referencing that the "righteousness of God" as being that which is upon them, not because they believed did they receive the righteousness of God. Their belief in Christ is the fruit and the earnest, of the righteousness of God having been given to them. Their belief in Christ came after, or from, the righteousness of God, it is not for the righteousness of God.

[2Th 2:13-14 KJV] 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


[1Pe 1:21 KJV] 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
 

Magenta

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Belief (faith) comes with/by being born again. Being born again comes only from salvation.
Is one born again and then believes, or does belief precede the new birth? Your "with/by" does not make that clear.
 

Cameron143

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Is one born again and then believes, or does belief precede the new birth? Your "with/by" does not make that clear.
Is this a restatement of the chicken and egg controversy?
 

rogerg

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Is one born again and then believes, or does belief precede the new birth? Your "with/by" does not make that clear.
Sorry. One is first born-again, and from that, is given true faith in Christ as a fruit of the Spirit
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Sorry. One is first born-again, and from that, is given true faith in Christ as a fruit of the Spirit
Thank you for clarifying :) If I may: When in this sequence of events does circumcision of the heart take place?
 

Magenta

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Welcome. At spiritual rebirth.
So you believe that heart circumcision, rebirth, and faith, all occur simultaneously,
and only then (subsequent to this rebirthing) does a person have ears to hear?


Or does that happen simultaneously along with heart circumcision, rebirth, and faith?
 

rogerg

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Thank you for clarifying :) If I may: When in this sequence of events does circumcision of the heart take place?
[2Co 3:3 KJV] 3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
 

rogerg

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So you believe that heart circumcision, rebirth, and faith, all occur simultaneously,
and only then (subsequent to this rebirthing) does a person have ears to hear?
Sorry, I have yet to find in the Bible, exactly when, relative to other spiritual changes, each occurs. Only that spiritual rebirth
must precede them all, because that is the prerequisite for all. I believe that it is enumerated somewhere but my eyes have yet to be opened as to where that may be found.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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[2Co 3:3 KJV] 3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written
not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

2 Corinthians 3:13-15~ We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites
from gazing at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were closed. For to this day the same veil remains at the reading
of the old covenant. It has not been lifted, because only in Christ can it be removed. And even to this day when Moses is read, a veil
covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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2 Corinthians 3:13-15~ We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites
from gazing at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were closed. For to this day the same veil remains at the reading
of the old covenant. It has not been lifted, because only in Christ can it be removed. And even to this day when Moses is read, a veil
covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
I'm assuming that you mean turning to the Lord by the Lord, and not of ourselves.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Sorry, I have yet to find in the Bible, exactly when, relative to other spiritual changes, each occurs. Only that spiritual rebirth
must precede them all, because that is the prerequisite for all. I believe that it is enumerated somewhere but my eyes have yet to be opened as to where it is.
Thank you for clarifying once again. I was asking some of these questions because I experienced God
in personal and profound ways long before I ever came to believe. So naturally when people say things
like: you are saved before you believe, it puzzles me. Meaning, had I died after God revealed Himself to
me a number of times, yet before I surrendered my opposition to Him and gave my life over to Him in faith,
I do not think I would have been saved (escaped the second death), as I was still in rebellion against Him.


I am grateful that He was long suffering and gracious toward me, in allowing me to survive the stupidity of my youth.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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Thank you for clarifying once again. I was asking some of these questions because I experienced God
in personal and profound ways long before I ever came to believe. So naturally when people say things
like: you are saved before you believe, it puzzles me. Meaning, had I died after God revealed Himself to
me a number of times, yet before I surrendered my opposition to Him and gave my life over to Him in faith,
I do not think I would have been saved (escaped the second death), as I was still in rebellion against Him.


I am grateful that He was long suffering and gracious toward me, in allowing me to survive the stupidity of my youth.
Well, based upon what you're saying, possibly you were saved prior to your awareness of it happening.
Becoming saved/born again is not immediately obvious. It grows slowly over time - the awareness, that is.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Well, based upon what you're saying, possibly you were saved prior to your awareness of it happening.
Becoming saved/born again is not immediately obvious. It grows slowly over time - the awareness, that is.
That sounds much like sanctification. But sanctification follows belief, does it not?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,158
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Sorry, I have yet to find in the Bible, exactly when, relative to other spiritual changes, each occurs.
Only that spiritual rebirth must precede them all, because that is the prerequisite for all. I believe
that it is enumerated somewhere but my eyes have yet to be opened as to where that may be found.

Deuteronomy 30:6~ The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you
may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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That sounds much like sanctification. But sanctification follows belief, does it not?
Sorry not sure, but this I know, all of the Christian attributes demonstrated by those saved, are of God within them.