Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[ResidentAlien]

This argument is about a lot more than whether a person can lose salvation; what we have are two fundamentally different ways of interpreting the meaning of salvation itself. No one will get anywhere trying to convince an eternal security person salvation can be lost without first addressing the true nature of salvation; and only God can reveal this to them.

 

[cv5]

The word for 'TAKETH AWAY" in that verse is:
142. airó - Definition: to raise, take up, lift

Those branches (person) IN JESUS, that do not bear fruit are taken away or lifted up. No longer able to be profitable to the Kingdom, or store up treasures in Heaven. They will stand at the judgement Seat of Christ (Bema Seat) and receive no rewards. They have the Foundation (Jesus Christ), but that's it. They will be among the LEAST in the Kingdom of Heaven. BUT, they will be there.

They are DIFFERENT than those in in verse 6 who are NOT in Jesus. Vital distinction.

From what I have heard, in ancient Israel, they would prop up a cluster of the vine on a rock, pulling it out of the mud and dirt, and then wash it with water so that it may have a better chance of bearing fruit. A beautiful picture of the work of the Lord.
Which to me makes more sense to me given verse 3.

G142 - airō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)

1. to raise up, elevate, lift up
   1. to raise from the ground, take up: stones
   2. to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand
   3. to draw up: a fish
2. to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear
3. to bear away what has been raised, carry off
   1. to move from its place
   2. to take off or away what is attached to anything
   3. to remove
   4. to carry off, carry away with one
   5. to appropriate what is taken
   6. to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force
   7. to take and apply to any use
   8. to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence
   9. cause to cease\

The concept here in verse 2 MIGHT be different than the ballō and klēma of verse 6.....

 

[cv5]

Jhn 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

That would be a negative result. I don't see that in verses 1 thru 5. And all Christians will in fact abide and be ultimately glorified.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

John 15


2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

The word take away should actually be transated lift up. It is a common phrase used in Jesus day of a vinedresser or lifts up branches that are lying on the ground and not producing fruit. You lift them up so they can produce fruit. The word purge literally means to prune, again a common language, you prune the dead off of a vine so it can produce more fruit. This whole passage is about fruit bearing not salvation, as he shows in the next verse. they are already saved (made clean)

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Perdantic I know but in the above scenario all I can see is that your parents basically teach you right from wrong when it comes to God go to church etc.
You then give a far fetched scenario (not unusual for those who reject OSAS based on what they understand it to mean as per your scenario)

But not once in the above have you said or intimated that you were a Christian.

I have done exactly the same with my 4 kids as per your scenario above but it doesn't make them a Christian.

The story is an example, it's not about a real person. Of course Christianity is assumed since we're discussing OSAS. My understanding is what I have stated again and again. OSAS would say someone who continues in sin was never saved in the first place, I say it's possible they were saved but back slidden. So what's the difference? Back to the true story of my pastor friends wife. He left her, had an affair with the song leader in his church and now is married to her. Where is he come judgement day?! Heaven or hell? No one has answered that question clearly to me yet.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Jhn 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

That would be a negative result. I don't see that in verses 1 thru 5. And all Christians will in fact abide and be ultimately glorified.

Those who abide, yes.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The story is an example, it's not about a real person. Of course Christianity is assumed since we're discussing OSAS. My understanding is what I have stated again and again. OSAS would say someone who continues in sin was never saved in the first place, I say it's possible they were saved but back slidden. So what's the difference? Back to the true story of my pastor friends wife. He left her, had an affair with the song leader in his church and now is married to her. Where is he come judgement day?! Heaven or hell? No one has answered that question clearly to me yet.

no one can answer. only God knows.

let he who has no sin cast the first stone

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

no one can answer. only God knows.

let he who has no sin cast the first stone

So a person cannot know with assurance that they are going to heaven. And no matter how a person lives, in continual sin, you cannot tell that person they are lost and in need of Christ? Because if I met this pastor I knew I would tell him, repent, go back to you wife, ask her forgiveness and your children for what you have done. You are living with a woman you have stolen from another man. Repent, ask God for forgiveness before it's too late. We cannot make a mockery of God's grace.

 

[cv5]

The word take away should actually be transated lift up. It is a common phrase used in Jesus day of a vinedresser or lifts up branches that are lying on the ground and not producing fruit. You lift them up so they can produce fruit. The word purge literally means to prune, again a common language, you prune the dead off of a vine so it can produce more fruit. This whole passage is about fruit bearing not salvation, as he shows in the next verse. they are already saved (made clean)

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Yes, the necessary sequence is that Jesus first creates the initial conditions whereby we CAN bear fruit, then lovingly attends to His own by pruning so that the believer might bear greater fruit.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So a person cannot know with assurance that they are going to heaven. And no matter how a person lives, in continual sin, you cannot tell that person they are lost and in need of Christ? Because if I met this pastor I knew I would tell him, repent, go back to you wife, ask her forgiveness and your children for what you have done. You are living with a woman you have stolen from another man. Repent, ask God for forgiveness before it's too late. We cannot make a mockery of God's grace.

You can judge your own salvation but you can not judge anyone elses

David commited adultry (some say Rape) and them murdered the girls husband. He ended up marrying her in adultry

do you question king davids salvation?

there really is no difference. King david did not leave the girl he commited adultry with, in fact. He had multiple wives until the day he died..

We have to be careful to judge others.. No one by their lives, would meet the standard of being good enough to earn salvation. Not you or I.

Is he saved, I do not know. Only God knows..

did he lose salvation? Thats impossible

was he evert saved? Only God knows.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

You can judge your own salvation but you can not judge anyone elses

David commited adultry (some say Rape) and them murdered the girls husband. He ended up marrying her in adultry

do you question king davids salvation?

there really is no difference. King david did not leave the girl he commited adultry with, in fact. He had multiple wives until the day he died..

We have to be careful to judge others.. No one by their lives, would meet the standard of being good enough to earn salvation. Not you or I.

Is he saved, I do not know. Only God knows..

did he lose salvation? Thats impossible

was he evert saved? Only God knows.

David repented, bitterly, and said my sin is ever before me. You can be saved and walk away from God's grace. You cannot say that person who is willfully living in sin is saved. I cannot say whether my former pastor friend will repent. I can say this, without repenting and turning from his sin, he's as lost as if he never knew Christ in the first place.


2 Peter 2:21, KJV: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

 

[posthuman]

Jesus was completely obedient to his Father even unto death, the death of the cross. Yes? God's righteousness was on display through the faith of Jesus Christ.

Obedient in His flesh because of course He is, He is God.
Is faith a necessary prerequisite to obedience?
Is it possible for example to obey a law without faith? ((see also: pharisees, lol))

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for"
What does omniscient omnipotent God "hope for"...? He holds all things together and all things are by & through Him. Does God "hope" He will accomplish His own purpose?

Is it possible for God to doubt His own plans?

WWas Jesus unsure whether He would die and rise again, but He believed really hard? Was He struggling to believe in His own divinity but ((wow lucky for us)) ultimately persevered?

 

[cv5]

Obedient in His flesh because of course He is, He is God.
Is faith a necessary prerequisite to obedience?
Is it possible for example to obey a law without faith? ((see also: pharisees, lol))

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for"
What does omniscient omnipotent God "hope for"...? He holds all things together and all things are by & through Him. Does God "hope" He will accomplish His own purpose?

Is it possible for God to doubt His own plans?

WWas Jesus unsure whether He would die and rise again, but He believed really hard? Was He struggling to believe in His own divinity but ((wow lucky for us)) ultimately persevered?

All of this wrapped up in the question: could Jesus sin (miss the mark)?

Answer: not so you would notice. I mean....the universe is still here right?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

David repented, bitterly, and said my sin is ever before me. You can be saved and walk away from God's grace. You cannot say that person who is willfully living in sin is saved. I cannot say whether my former pastor friend will repent. I can say this, without repenting and turning from his sin, he's as lost as if he never knew Christ in the first place.


2 Peter 2:21, KJV: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

David may have repen ted. But he continued to live in sin.

All of us sin, we all have our besetting sin.

You cant walk away fro Gods grace once you have recieved it by bein g born again, your always a child.. you can walk away from his blessings as a prodigal son but your still as son.

Unless you were never a son to begin with

 

[John146]

Obedient in His flesh because of course He is, He is God.
Is faith a necessary prerequisite to obedience?
Is it possible for example to obey a law without faith? ((see also: pharisees, lol))

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for"
What does omniscient omnipotent God "hope for"...? He holds all things together and all things are by & through Him. Does God "hope" He will accomplish His own purpose?

Is it possible for God to doubt His own plans?

WWas Jesus unsure whether He would die and rise again, but He believed really hard? Was He struggling to believe in His own divinity but ((wow lucky for us)) ultimately persevered?

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Jesus always obeyed his Father.

John 14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

 

[John146]

WWas Jesus unsure whether He would die and rise again, but He believed really hard? Was He struggling to believe in His own divinity but ((wow lucky for us)) ultimately persevered?

This is not faith. Faith is being fully persuaded. The bold below is a biblical definition of what it means to believe.

Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

David may have repen ted. But he continued to live in sin.

All of us sin, we all have our besetting sin.

You cant walk away fro Gods grace once you have recieved it by bein g born again, your always a child.. you can walk away from his blessings as a prodigal son but your still as son.

Unless you were never a son to begin with

I appreciate your posts. And especially your tone. We disagree but I hope we can still get on well here at CC. I'm still listening to you all speaking and searching the Word.

 

[HeIsHere]

This argument is about a lot more than whether a person can lose salvation; what we have are two fundamentally different ways of interpreting the meaning of salvation itself. No one will get anywhere trying to convince an eternal security person salvation can be lost without first addressing the true nature of salvation; and only God can reveal this to them.

And what is the true nature of salvation which only God can reveal?

Is is in scripture?

 

[posthuman]

All of this wrapped up in the question: could Jesus sin (miss the mark)?

Answer: not so you would notice. I mean....the universe is still here right?

I believe "impeccable"

 

[posthuman]

This is not faith. Faith is being fully persuaded. The bold below is a biblical definition of what it means to believe.

Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

He is The Truth and knows all things
i don't understand what does He need to be persuaded of?