Christ kept the Law of Moses, so....
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my point is i find the idea that the Son of God has need of salvation from death to be ludicrous, and i am still waiting for an explanation for that belief.
not having yet received any satisfactory explanation, i press my case. is that so unreasonable?
have we not previously established in this thread that the burden of proof for an outrageous claim lies with the one who made the claim?
nevertheless:
not having yet received any satisfactory explanation, i press my case. is that so unreasonable?
have we not previously established in this thread that the burden of proof for an outrageous claim lies with the one who made the claim?
nevertheless:
No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself.
I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.
(John 10:18)
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Before I was afflicted I went astray,
But now I keep Your word.
(Psalm 119:67)
you're telling me that Jesus Christ the spotless, sinless Lamb of God "went astray" before He was afflicted.i.e. the Good Shepherd once was lost but now He is found.
i do not see how that is not blasphemy in direct contradiction with such things as 1 John 3:5 "in Him there is no sin"
please explain.
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I understand that the 10 Commandments are the standard that YHVH, GOD, gave not only to His people Israel, but to the whole world and are timeless, being in the ark of the covenant where the mercy seat of GOD is. This I believe, is why the Ark of His Testament is referenced in Rev. 11:18-19, because those Tables placed within, written by the very finger of GOD are still binding upon all men.
This is why, as I understand it, that Jesus came, to introduce a new and living way, that is by Him through His Spirit.
Acts 17:29-31 refers to disobedience to the 2nd Command and says that GOD commands all men everywhere to Repent. This is a direct reference to repenting of a command of GOD right there at the beginning of the New Testament.
Paul goes on to teach clarity on our New Testament relationship with the Law as a school master, teaching us the standard and pointing out our failure. To which we are called to 1.) Repent and 2.) Believe the gospel. that your sins (transgression of the Law 1Jn. 3:3-6) may be blotted out.
Throughout history we have seen the 10 Commandments hanging in homes, schools, places of business, and government buildings. Never before have we seen such a rejection of GOD's Moral Law for all of mankind rejected worldwide. Now the end is here! Because what else can be done when man has rejected GOD's holy standard.
The 2 witnesses will soon come speaking the same thing in the days of their prophesy and the world will despise them for it (Rev. 11:3-13).
Much like many Christians do today when this is brought up...
This is why, as I understand it, that Jesus came, to introduce a new and living way, that is by Him through His Spirit.
Acts 17:29-31 refers to disobedience to the 2nd Command and says that GOD commands all men everywhere to Repent. This is a direct reference to repenting of a command of GOD right there at the beginning of the New Testament.
Paul goes on to teach clarity on our New Testament relationship with the Law as a school master, teaching us the standard and pointing out our failure. To which we are called to 1.) Repent and 2.) Believe the gospel. that your sins (transgression of the Law 1Jn. 3:3-6) may be blotted out.
Throughout history we have seen the 10 Commandments hanging in homes, schools, places of business, and government buildings. Never before have we seen such a rejection of GOD's Moral Law for all of mankind rejected worldwide. Now the end is here! Because what else can be done when man has rejected GOD's holy standard.
The 2 witnesses will soon come speaking the same thing in the days of their prophesy and the world will despise them for it (Rev. 11:3-13).
Much like many Christians do today when this is brought up...
That would be a very serious error. The Bible makes it crystal clear that Christ was absolutely without sin. And here is the reason why the Law needed to be set aside: If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the Law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the Law. (Heb 7:11,12)
The Law of Moses was effective in Israel for about 1500 years, but during all that time Israel failed to keep the Law (barring a few brief interludes). It was only Jesus of Nazareth -- of the tribe of Judah and the line of David -- who observed the Law perfectly because He was sinless. Then God the Father made Him "SIN" for us on the cross, so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.
So when Christ shouted victoriously from the cross "IT IS FINISHED" He not only proclaimed that His redemptive work was finished, but also that the Old Covenant and the Law of Moses was finished. "There remaineth no more sacrifice for sins".
The Law of Moses was effective in Israel for about 1500 years, but during all that time Israel failed to keep the Law (barring a few brief interludes). It was only Jesus of Nazareth -- of the tribe of Judah and the line of David -- who observed the Law perfectly because He was sinless. Then God the Father made Him "SIN" for us on the cross, so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.
So when Christ shouted victoriously from the cross "IT IS FINISHED" He not only proclaimed that His redemptive work was finished, but also that the Old Covenant and the Law of Moses was finished. "There remaineth no more sacrifice for sins".
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E
Psalm 119:67 is poorly translated. Hebrew word sagag H7683 is only used 5 times in Scripture. It is translated 5 different words each time. it basically means to be unaware or ignorant of something. "went astray" is completely a wrong translation.
verse 66 says
66 Teach Me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed Thy commandments.
The Son is asking to be taught because He believes in His Father's commandments and the promise of life to Him for His obedience in giving His life to save us.
67 Before I was afflicted I was unaware: but now have I kept Thy word.
The Son learned through what He suffered. He was unaware before He was afflicted. As a Man He experience cruelty and violence which He had not experienced before He was afflicted. He was learning and being taught.
68 Thou art good, and doest good; teach Me Thy statutes.
The Son again praises His Father for being good and again asks Him to teach Him through what He is experiencing.
69 The proud have forged a lie against Me: but I will keep Thy precepts with My whole heart.
The Son describes being accused with false charges. He again declares His obedience and even says He will keep the Father's precepts with His Whole Heart.
70 their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in Thy law.
the Son again says He delights in His Father's law because it was Life to Him because of His obedience.
71 It is good for Me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn Thy statutes.
The Son says that He learned His Father's Statutes through what He suffered which is exactly what Hebrews 5 tells us. He also received the promise of life in the law to Him for His obedience in giving His life to save us.
if you want to hang your hat on 1 mistranslated word "sagag" that only occurs 5 times in Scripture and is translated 5 different ways then have at it. if you want to ignore the immense amount of evidence through Psalm 119 that proves it is the Son's prayer to live because of His obedience to the law in giving His life to save us, then by all means ignore the body of evidence and hold on to your "sagag" for all it's worth.
verse 66 says
66 Teach Me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed Thy commandments.
The Son is asking to be taught because He believes in His Father's commandments and the promise of life to Him for His obedience in giving His life to save us.
67 Before I was afflicted I was unaware: but now have I kept Thy word.
The Son learned through what He suffered. He was unaware before He was afflicted. As a Man He experience cruelty and violence which He had not experienced before He was afflicted. He was learning and being taught.
68 Thou art good, and doest good; teach Me Thy statutes.
The Son again praises His Father for being good and again asks Him to teach Him through what He is experiencing.
69 The proud have forged a lie against Me: but I will keep Thy precepts with My whole heart.
The Son describes being accused with false charges. He again declares His obedience and even says He will keep the Father's precepts with His Whole Heart.
70 their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in Thy law.
the Son again says He delights in His Father's law because it was Life to Him because of His obedience.
71 It is good for Me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn Thy statutes.
The Son says that He learned His Father's Statutes through what He suffered which is exactly what Hebrews 5 tells us. He also received the promise of life in the law to Him for His obedience in giving His life to save us.
if you want to hang your hat on 1 mistranslated word "sagag" that only occurs 5 times in Scripture and is translated 5 different ways then have at it. if you want to ignore the immense amount of evidence through Psalm 119 that proves it is the Son's prayer to live because of His obedience to the law in giving His life to save us, then by all means ignore the body of evidence and hold on to your "sagag" for all it's worth.
The Law plays a critical role in bringing people to embracing the Atonement of the Atonement of Jesus..
The Law convicts people of their transgressions against the will of God.. Without the Law people could say everything is OK and sin is just a personal opinion.. So it is essential for Christians to Keep the LAW.. When i sau Keep the Law i mean Keep.. The actual word Keep is to have something in ones possession.. The verses do not say DO the LAW without failure.. We Keep the Law so we can use it to reveal sin setting people up for Gods solution to the problem of our failure to do the Law without failure..
We exceed the rightiousness of the Pharisees and the scribes the Moment we believe Jesus and trust in the Atonement He secured on the cross.. Because our righteousness at that point becomes the Righteousness of The LORD Jesus.. We know our own righteousness are as filthy rags to God so we never rely on our own performance But in the LORDs...
Yes we should share the Moral Law with others in the process of leading them to the Gospel.. And if one loves the LORD then one will try to avoid breaking the Law.. Not as an attempt to secure ones own eternal place with God but simply out of moral conviction that the Law of God is Good and truth..
The Law convicts people of their transgressions against the will of God.. Without the Law people could say everything is OK and sin is just a personal opinion.. So it is essential for Christians to Keep the LAW.. When i sau Keep the Law i mean Keep.. The actual word Keep is to have something in ones possession.. The verses do not say DO the LAW without failure.. We Keep the Law so we can use it to reveal sin setting people up for Gods solution to the problem of our failure to do the Law without failure..
We exceed the rightiousness of the Pharisees and the scribes the Moment we believe Jesus and trust in the Atonement He secured on the cross.. Because our righteousness at that point becomes the Righteousness of The LORD Jesus.. We know our own righteousness are as filthy rags to God so we never rely on our own performance But in the LORDs...
Yes we should share the Moral Law with others in the process of leading them to the Gospel.. And if one loves the LORD then one will try to avoid breaking the Law.. Not as an attempt to secure ones own eternal place with God but simply out of moral conviction that the Law of God is Good and truth..
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Every single one of the 10 Commandments stands. Yes, it is necessary to follow the commandments. But all commandments have been broken. Jesus does not condemn us. When everyone was waiting to stone the immoral woman, Jesus said,“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” John 8:7
And when everyone put down the stones and left the place. Jesus looked up and asked the woman. "Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?"
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. John 8:10-11
Our God does not condemn. But it is absolutely expected of us from Him that we don't sin. That's why we pray to the Holy Spirit. We pray for God's protection and look to God for guidance. For every time we sin, it hurts our God. We are one of those who nail him to the Cross. So, that must not be forgotten. We're accountable to God. God will ask an account on the day of Judgement of our sins. Who knows how God will judge?
We being human beings don't take a favour received from others for granted. This is God. These are His commandments. The commandments aren't to be taken for granted either.
If ye love me, keep my commandments. - John 14:15.
And Jesus never said the 10 Commandments don't apply. Should we fail out of human weakness, we're forgiven. But forgiveness should be earned. Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is not to be taken for granted. We're called to prove ourselves worthy of that sacrifice and the act of love God has done for us. Although we can never be that worthy. God calls us friends in the Bible. Not slaves. But what kind of friends are we to God? How we keep God's commandments and do what pleases Him shows this friendship and gratitude to God. That's how I see it and understand it. And I think all Christians are called to look at it that way.
And when everyone put down the stones and left the place. Jesus looked up and asked the woman. "Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?"
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. John 8:10-11
Our God does not condemn. But it is absolutely expected of us from Him that we don't sin. That's why we pray to the Holy Spirit. We pray for God's protection and look to God for guidance. For every time we sin, it hurts our God. We are one of those who nail him to the Cross. So, that must not be forgotten. We're accountable to God. God will ask an account on the day of Judgement of our sins. Who knows how God will judge?
We being human beings don't take a favour received from others for granted. This is God. These are His commandments. The commandments aren't to be taken for granted either.
If ye love me, keep my commandments. - John 14:15.
And Jesus never said the 10 Commandments don't apply. Should we fail out of human weakness, we're forgiven. But forgiveness should be earned. Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is not to be taken for granted. We're called to prove ourselves worthy of that sacrifice and the act of love God has done for us. Although we can never be that worthy. God calls us friends in the Bible. Not slaves. But what kind of friends are we to God? How we keep God's commandments and do what pleases Him shows this friendship and gratitude to God. That's how I see it and understand it. And I think all Christians are called to look at it that way.
Exodus 34:28 - So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
Deuteronomy 5:1 - And Moses called all Israel, and said to them: “Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your hearing today, that you may learn them and be careful to observe them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.
Nehemiah 9:13 - “Then You came down on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven; You gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments. 14 “So You made known to them Your holy sabbath, And laid down for them commandments, statutes and law, Through Your servant Moses.
Deuteronomy 5:1 - And Moses called all Israel, and said to them: “Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your hearing today, that you may learn them and be careful to observe them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.
Nehemiah 9:13 - “Then You came down on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven; You gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments. 14 “So You made known to them Your holy sabbath, And laid down for them commandments, statutes and law, Through Your servant Moses.
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Do you observe the Sabbath commandment as Moses ordained?
You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 31:14-15
So, the Sabbath is not holy? Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day. That's the Commandment. And for the record, it was not ordained by Moses. It was given to Moses by God. The way it was observed by the Jews may be different. We are saved by God's grace. But I'm firm on what I shared before.
Does it mean that it's okay for you to kill? To commit adultery? To steal, etc just because we're saved by Grace? No, you don't get a free pass to do those things and also say that you're saved by God's Grace if that's what you're implying by your reply.
Nothing God gave is without purpose. The commandments are to be kept by us. Failing to do so does not mean death if we believe in Jesus. That's where God's sacrifice on the Cross comes in for us. But it is not to be taken for granted. I'm not sure what you mean by what you just said. If you will explain, I'll listen. You see I'm more direct. I don't do cryptic talk.
I never said anything about human beings punishing others because of religious sanctions. I'm talking about doing what pleases God. What God wants. And God would definitely desire that His children obey his commandments. Simply that's what I meant.
Does it mean that it's okay for you to kill? To commit adultery? To steal, etc just because we're saved by Grace? No, you don't get a free pass to do those things and also say that you're saved by God's Grace if that's what you're implying by your reply.
Nothing God gave is without purpose. The commandments are to be kept by us. Failing to do so does not mean death if we believe in Jesus. That's where God's sacrifice on the Cross comes in for us. But it is not to be taken for granted. I'm not sure what you mean by what you just said. If you will explain, I'll listen. You see I'm more direct. I don't do cryptic talk.
I never said anything about human beings punishing others because of religious sanctions. I'm talking about doing what pleases God. What God wants. And God would definitely desire that His children obey his commandments. Simply that's what I meant.
It is impossible that all of Psalm 119 is from Christ's perspective because in at least 2-3 places the writer expresses sin in themselves.
I have written earlier that the word translated 'Himself' in Hebrews 5:7 could be interpreted as reflexive, i.e. to the One Himself who is able to save, instead of to the one who is able to save Him.
This comes down to whether we believe in the sinlessness and/or diety of Christ or not:
If Christ has no sin He has nothing to be saved from because death is the wage of sin and God is not unjust. Christ lays His own life down and takes it up again Himself. He says so - He raises up the temple of His body; no one takes it from Him.
If Christ is God it is ridiculous to even entertain the idea that He, the one and only Savior, needs to be saved from anything whatsoever.
Even with those things ignored altogether, the passage is speaking specifically & narrowly about God's days manifest in the flesh. Everything He does in those times are for an example to us: demonstrating to us what a righteous life as a human looks like, perfectly. He humbled Himself to take on the form of a man - a perfect man - and lived it all to show us what perfection in the flesh looks like. This does not then mean He Himself needs salvation, but that we who do have need, this is how we ought to conduct ourselves.
Besides these things again - Hebrews speaks of Him offering up prayers and supplications. So where on scripture do we see Christ praying? He Himself taught us to pray on secret, not openly for others to hear or see us. So in those few examples we see of Him praying, they clearly were witnessed - - and knowing that He is not false in what He teaches, the only possible view of those recorded prayers is that He spoke them in the hearing of His disciples for the express purpose of them being recorded, for our benefit.
What benefit? So we would know how to pray, and what righteous prayer looks like. He does snt need to pray aloud for Him to hear Himself ((acknowledging He is God)) or for God to hear Him ((if you deny He is God but agree He is perfect in all His ways)) since God always hears whoever is without sin.
So where do we ever see in scripture Christ praying to be saved? Or anything remotely like it?
Find that and you'll find what Hebrews 5:7 is talking about.
I have written earlier that the word translated 'Himself' in Hebrews 5:7 could be interpreted as reflexive, i.e. to the One Himself who is able to save, instead of to the one who is able to save Him.
This comes down to whether we believe in the sinlessness and/or diety of Christ or not:
If Christ has no sin He has nothing to be saved from because death is the wage of sin and God is not unjust. Christ lays His own life down and takes it up again Himself. He says so - He raises up the temple of His body; no one takes it from Him.
If Christ is God it is ridiculous to even entertain the idea that He, the one and only Savior, needs to be saved from anything whatsoever.
Even with those things ignored altogether, the passage is speaking specifically & narrowly about God's days manifest in the flesh. Everything He does in those times are for an example to us: demonstrating to us what a righteous life as a human looks like, perfectly. He humbled Himself to take on the form of a man - a perfect man - and lived it all to show us what perfection in the flesh looks like. This does not then mean He Himself needs salvation, but that we who do have need, this is how we ought to conduct ourselves.
Besides these things again - Hebrews speaks of Him offering up prayers and supplications. So where on scripture do we see Christ praying? He Himself taught us to pray on secret, not openly for others to hear or see us. So in those few examples we see of Him praying, they clearly were witnessed - - and knowing that He is not false in what He teaches, the only possible view of those recorded prayers is that He spoke them in the hearing of His disciples for the express purpose of them being recorded, for our benefit.
What benefit? So we would know how to pray, and what righteous prayer looks like. He does snt need to pray aloud for Him to hear Himself ((acknowledging He is God)) or for God to hear Him ((if you deny He is God but agree He is perfect in all His ways)) since God always hears whoever is without sin.
So where do we ever see in scripture Christ praying to be saved? Or anything remotely like it?
Find that and you'll find what Hebrews 5:7 is talking about.
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