Hell, Sheol, Hades...

Magenta · Feb 22, 2023

Matthew 18:14
Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 13:5
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Romans 2:12
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:
and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

2 Corinthians 2:15
For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

2 Thessalonians 2:10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
because theyreceived not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering
to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Perish = Strong's Concordance #622 - apollumi

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 22, 2023

Magenta said:

... which reminds me (and you may recall) of the post I'd made some time back...

about the "49 different Hebrew and Aramaic words in the OT for the English word 'destroy / destroyed / destroying'" -

[quoting old post]

"destroy" -

1) H4229........................[35x]

2) H7843........................[145x]

3) H5595........................[20x]

4) H3772........................[287x]

5) H4889........................[11x]

6) H3423........................[229x]

7) H2000........................[14x]

8) H5422........................[42x]

9) H6.............................[179x]

10) H8045.......................[88x]

11) H3615.......................[204x]

12) H2763.......................[50x]

13) H6979.......................[6x]

14) H1949.......................[5x]

15) H7921.......................[22x]

16) H622.........................[199x]

17) H4191.......................[779x]

18) H6789.......................[14x]

19) H4049.......................[1x]

20) H2255.......................[6x]

21) H1104.......................[49x]

22) H1792.......................[18x]

23) H5362.......................[19x]

24) H816.........................[33x]

25) H2040.......................[42x]

26) H7722.......................[12x]

27) H3238.......................[19x]

28) H4135.......................[35x]

29) H7703.......................[54x]

30) H5255.......................[4x]

31) H1641.......................[5x]

32) H2254.......................[25x]

33) H8074.......................[85x]

34) H7665.......................[147x]

35) H7............................[7x]

36) H1820.......................[15x]

"destroyed" (at least the ones not listed so far, above) -

37) H3807.......................[17x]

38) H2764.......................[38x]

39) H2717.......................[40x]

40) H1696.......................[1140x ; rarely (in a destructive sense)]

41) H2718.......................[1x]

42) H5642.......................[2x]

43) H5428.......................[21x]

44) H2026.......................[165x]

45) H7321.......................[43x]

46) H1822.......................[1x]

47) H6658.......................[3x]

"destroying" (at least not the ones listed so far, above) -

48) H6986.......................[3x]

49) H4892.......................[1x]

[end quoting old post]

____________

... do they all carry identical meaning??

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 22, 2023

Magenta said:

Regarding this word (G622) ^ , an old post:

From Post #203 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4677396

[quoting old post]

Additionally...

Consider:

Note also the word for "destroy / destroyed" in some of those passages being referenced (in this thread), is "G622"... the same word used in the following passages below

(but recall, I'm pointing out "CHRONOLOGY" issues... where in THESE verses below, the CHRONOLOGY is such that SOMETHING "recovering" FOLLOWS it [not so in the other occurrences under discussion, per the CHRONOLOGY issues I'm pointing out]):

[G622 - translated "DESTROY / DESTROYED" in some passages under present discussion]

Luk 15:6 -
And G2532 when he cometh G2064 G1519 home, G3624 he calleth together G4779 his friends G5384 and G2532 neighbours, G1069 saying G3004 unto them, G846 Rejoice G4796 with me G3427; for G3754 I have found G2147 my G3450 sheep G4263 which G3588 was lost G622.

Luk 15:8 -
Either G2228 what G5101 woman G1135 having G2192 ten G1176 pieces of silver, G1406 if G1437 she lose G622 one G3391 piece, G1406 doth not G3780 light G681 a candle, G3088 and G2532 sweep G4563 the house G3614, and G2532 seek G2212 diligently G1960 till G2193 G3755 she find G2147 it?

Luk 15:9 -
And G2532 when she hath found G2147 it, she calleth G4779 ➔ her friends G5384 and G2532 her neighbours G1069 together, G4779 saying, G3004 Rejoice G4796 with me; G3427 for G3754 I have found G2147 the piece G1406 which G3739 I had lost G622.

Luk 15:24 -
For G3754 this G3778 my G3450 son G5207 was G2258 dead, G3498 and G2532 is alive again; G326 G2532 he was G2258 lost G622, and G2532 is found G2147. And G2532 they began G756 to be merry. G2165

Luk 15:32 -
It was G1161 meet G1163 that we should make merry, G2165 and G2532 be glad: G5463 for G3754 this G3778 thy G4675 brother G80 was G2258 dead, G3498 and G2532 is alive again; G326 and G2532 was G2258 lost G622, and G2532 is found G2147.

[the CHRONOLOGY was such that something "recovering" FOLLOWS the "lost [G622]" part--Not so when it comes to the "GWTj" point in the chronology]

[in the following passage, where "the world" perished G622 [including the ppl in it, except Noah & crew], but where Noah & crew continued to live on after the flood judgment came upon the world, and they went on to "fill the earth"]

2 Pet 3:6 -
Whereby G1223 G3739 the world G2889 that then was, G5119 being overflowed G2626 with water, G5204 perished G622:

[note: the ones who "perished [G622]" in the flood judgment, are part of "the dead [/unsaved of all time periods]" who will be "DELIVERED UP" at the point in time of the "GWTj" to experience the final carrying out of the sentence (aka the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23], being in v.22b (the LATER "GWTj" time-slot), which is SEPARATED BY "TIME" from that of the FIRST of these TWO "PUNISH" words (<--at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot)]; At the GWTj time-slot of the CHRONOLOGY, the "lake of fire" is "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"... never-ending / forever... (there's no "separation [/death]" out of it--nothing "recovering" occurring FOLLOWING this point; and no REVERSAL of the "sentence" previously given and experienced up to this point)]

[end quoting old post--linked at top]

Magenta · Feb 22, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

I sampled this one ^

The KJV translates Strong's H1820 in the following manner: cut off (3x), cease (2x), perish (2x),
bring to silence (2x), liken (2x), destroy (2x), undone (1x), utterly (1x), cut down (1x).

Then this one:

H6979
The KJV translates Strong's H6979 in the following manner: dig (2x), cast out (2x), destroy (1x), break down (1x).

and H3615
The KJV translates Strong's H3615 in the following manner: consume (57x), end (44x), finish (20x), fail (18x), accomplish (12x), done (9x), spend (8x), ended (7x), determined (4x), away (3x), fulfil (3x), fainteth (2x), destroy (2x), left (2x), waste (2x), miscellaneous (13x).

and H4889
The KJV translates Strong's H4889 in the following manner: destroy (4x),
corruption (2x), destruction (2x), set a trap (1x), destroying (1x), utterly (1x).

Then H2764
The KJV translates Strong's H2764 in the following manner: net (9x), accursed thing (9x), accursed (4x), curse (4x),
cursed thing (3x), devoted (3x), destruction (2x), devoted thing (2x), dedicated thing (1x), destroyed (1x).

have been utterly destroyed, (appointed to) utter destruction

WillB · Feb 23, 2023

HeIsHere said:

I will suggest that you stand back, take a very good look at your belief. Then drill down into the details of the original meaning of those specific words in the context that Revelation was written in SYMBOLIC language so that only believers would understand what those symbols signified and the true meaning of the words and passages in Scripture.

Did you never read that often time Jesus used such language so that unbelievers would 'not see...not hear."?

PennEd · Feb 23, 2023

HeIsHere said:

Yes. At it's absolute essence, it's exactly what atheists and the unbelieving world think.

Everlasting-Grace · Feb 23, 2023

Aaron56 said:

Want more what?

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me [i]to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to [k]hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

Magenta · Feb 23, 2023

Everlasting-Grace said:

Want more what?

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me [i]to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to [k]hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

How many hands have you cut off, and how many eyes have you gouged out?.

Have you lamed yourself also?

Everlasting-Grace · Feb 23, 2023

Magenta said:

The point Jesus made is anything that would keep you from coming to Christ. it is better to sever it then spend an eternity in hell. where the worm (Conscious) does not die and the fire is never quenched

Magenta · Feb 23, 2023

Everlasting-Grace said:

The point is also that hyperbole is a literary device used in Scripture.

Consciousness is the worm? I never heard that before.

Worms eat corpses. Gehenna was a smouldering garbage dump.

Jesus is the light and life of men.

HeIsHere · Feb 23, 2023

WillB said:

I have never stated my belief, I am a bit of an agnostic on this issue since I think there are problems with every view point.

HeIsHere · Feb 23, 2023

Magenta said:

I sampled this one ^

The KJV translates Strong's H1820 in the following manner: cut off (3x), cease (2x), perish (2x),
bring to silence (2x), liken (2x), destroy (2x), undone (1x), utterly (1x), cut down (1x).

Then this one:

H6979
The KJV translates Strong's H6979 in the following manner: dig (2x), cast out (2x), destroy (1x), break down (1x).

and H3615
The KJV translates Strong's H3615 in the following manner: consume (57x), end (44x), finish (20x), fail (18x), accomplish (12x), done (9x), spend (8x), ended (7x), determined (4x), away (3x), fulfil (3x), fainteth (2x), destroy (2x), left (2x), waste (2x), miscellaneous (13x).

and H4889
The KJV translates Strong's H4889 in the following manner: destroy (4x),
corruption (2x), destruction (2x), set a trap (1x), destroying (1x), utterly (1x).

Then H2764
The KJV translates Strong's H2764 in the following manner: net (9x), accursed thing (9x), accursed (4x), curse (4x),
cursed thing (3x), devoted (3x), destruction (2x), devoted thing (2x), dedicated thing (1x), destroyed (1x).

have been utterly destroyed, (appointed to) utter destruction

Utter destruction is not "nihilo"

It just isn't.

HeIsHere · Feb 23, 2023

Magenta said:

None of these words means non-existence in the sense of nihilism.

While people may say I "annihilated" when playing video games, we cannot infer this meaning to the word destroy in scripture.

Magenta · Feb 23, 2023

HeIsHere said:

Apparently you are not a total agnostic on this issue...

You are grouped with those who say, to destroy to the uttermost does not mean to destroy to the uttermost.

From beginning to end, Scripture proclaims that the wages of sin is death. The plain teaching of Scripture
is that life ever after is attained only by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Christ.

Immortality is put on through faith in Christ alone.

HeIsHere · Feb 23, 2023

Magenta said:

If my car was destroyed to the uttermost, meaning that is no longer usable, it does not mean it is no longer exists, it still has matter, what you are suggesting is that when my car is destroyed to the uttermost it is completely is gone there is no evidence of it, non-existence.

To make "destroy to the uttermost" synonymous with non-existence there is not enough evidence in scripture to support this, there just is not.

Everlasting-Grace · Feb 23, 2023

Magenta said:

I have always heard the worm represents the consciousness,

Jesus is still telling them, and us, if anything keeps us from coming it is better to cut that thing off. then to spend and eternity in Gehenna/Hell where the fire is never quenched and the worm will never die..

Everlasting-Grace · Feb 23, 2023

destroy - death

Revelation 2:11
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

2ndTimeIsTheCharm · Feb 23, 2023

I'm honestly confused. Both sides have posted verses that supported their views very well. So since both types of verses are in the Bible, I think there is some middle ground there that explains the whole thing better.

So far from what I've read, God alone is eternal with no beginning or end.

But then God made us with immortal souls - souls that have no ending, but a beginning.

Our bodies though are mortal. When the Lord returns, those who belong to Him will gain immortal bodies.

When the GWT judgement arrives, those who rejected the Lord will go to the Lake of Fire. Notice that it's the souls that go there for all the rest of forever - they're not given immortal bodies - that's only for us who are in Christ. So it's their bodies that perish or are utterly destroyed - not their souls. But their souls will continue to exist in anguish and deep regret, with great thirst (thirst doesn't have to be physical) forever. This is the second death because they exist apart from the Lord who really is the source of life. God is giving them exactly what they want.

Cameron143 · Feb 23, 2023

Everlasting-Grace said:

The worm feeds on the dead. If it never dies, the implication is that it continues to feed.

HeIsHere · Feb 23, 2023

WillB said:

Yes there is lots of symbolic language, that actually works against conditional immortality not in support of it.

Deuteronomy 12:2
2 You shall utterly destroy all the places where the nations which you shall dispossess served their gods, on the high mountains and on the hills and under every green tree.

Did God make these places non- existent or is there matter that comprises those places still somewhere on this planet.

Do you know the first law of thermodynamics?

Hell, Sheol, Hades...

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