50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[ChoirLoft]

You are not only wrong, you teach false things about the bible. You are just upset that I proved you wrong when you denied the rapture and tribulation are biblical facts.

You prove nothing when you refuse to study the proofs I offer.

Instead you stand upon meaningless quotations of scripture and bogus interpretations of Biblical context.

The Bible nowhere suggests God will evacuate His people from trouble. A few scripture verses taken out of context prove nothing. Rapture is the doctrine of cowards who pretend God will take them away from trouble NOT SEE THEM THROUGH IT as is the contextual promise of scripture from one end of the Bible to the other.

With regard to Francisco Ribera, who penned the false doctrines of Tribulation, Rapture and further End Times dogma I seriously doubt you'd even heard of Ribera until I mentioned his name. You know nothing of what he wrote or didn't write.

But then the discussion isn't about RCC doctrine or at least it shouldn't be about it. It's about God's promises to see His believers THROUGH any of life's difficulties - not to provide a Star Trek mythical beam out when things get dicey. Many saints died believing this. Modern Christians, who don't even study the Bible but rely upon buzz words and religious slogans, don't bother to read the Bible or accept the doctrines therein. Instead they prefer the doctrines of man.

Ignorance isn't bliss. It paves the way to destruction.

Those that refuse to STUDY TO SHOW THEMSELVES APPROVED will appear to all men as foolish - their doctrines as childish fantasies and ancient myths without meaning. As a result the good news of salvation in Christ Jesus will be hidden from the world that needs it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[ChoirLoft]

View attachment 229792


ISRAEL is his Chosen NATION. We and not that nation, but we are his chosen to become Sons and Daughters.
The 144,000 are all JEWS, and they go into the millennial Kingdom in their Mortal Bodies to repopulate ISRAEL.
We go into the Kingdom in our eternal glorified Bodies.

Acts 13:42-44 (NKJV)
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.


Jews and Gentiles are TWO different Peoples. Gentiles are NEVER called new Israel. When they convert to Judaism, they are called devout proselytes by Paul himself, not new Israelites.

Romans 2:11 (HCSB)
11 There is no favoritism with God.

That is all that verse means, when HE SAYS:

Romans 10:12 (NIV)
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

This is another example of Roman Catholic doctrine. Formulated by Francisco Ribera in the late 16th century, this particular heresy is known as Replacement Theology or Supersessionism.

It is entirely false and anti-semitic in nature.

Then again, so is the modern post protestant plastic church.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[KeithB]

I realize that some popular new ['anti-pre-trib-rapture / anti-rapture'] authors-of-books endeavor to use Ezekiel 13:20 to be supposedly talking about "warning against ppl who LIE to you about being 'RAPTURED UP/OUT'"... however, I believe they've failed to grasp the actual context, which context is not about the Subject of "RAPTURE" at all (thus is not a warning about ppl [supposedly] "falsely teaching" such a thing)...

...here's an excerpt of one of my old posts (which post was related to my posts on Heb9:8-9a and its "STASIS / STASIN" word, and context there):


[quoting from old post]


Ezekiel 13:20 (often used to mean the OPPOSITE; really means THIS...) -


"20 Therefore, this is what the Lord GOD says: See, I am against the magic charms with which you ensnare souls/lives like birds [same word as in Num17:8 - H6524], and I will tear them from your arms. I will free the souls/lives you have ensnared [same word as in Num17:8 - H6524 (see below, in the esv)] . 21 I will also tear off your veils and deliver My people from your hands, so that they will no longer be prey in your hands. Then you will know that I am the LORD.

"22 Because you have disheartened the righteous with your lies, even though I have caused them no grief, and because you have encouraged the wicked not to turn from their evil ways to save their lives, 23 therefore you will no longer see false visions or practice divination. I will deliver My people from your hands. Then you will know that I am the LORD.” "



Or, v.20 in the esv -


"“Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against your magic bands with which you hunt the souls like birds [H6524], and I will tear them from your arms, and I will let the souls whom you hunt go free, the souls like birds [H6524]."



...or in the ylt -

Young's Literal Translation -

"Therefore, thus said the Lord Jehovah: Lo, I am against your pillows, With which ye are hunting there the souls of the flourishing, And I have rent them from off your arms, And have sent away the souls that ye are hunting, The souls of the flourishing. And I have torn your kerchiefs, And delivered My people out of your hand, And they are no more in your hand for a prey, And ye have known that I am Jehovah. [...] Therefore, vanity ye do not see, And divination ye do not divine again, And I have delivered My people out of your hand, And ye have known that I am Jehovah!'"


[end quoting old post]


____________


[the Subject matter is not covering "RAPTURE" whatsoever, in that context]

I like the King James a little better
20Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. 21Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 22Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: 23Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Point being God is against any type rapture doctrine.

 

[Karlon]

it's amazing how people think the tribulation will occur before the Rapture. 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 verses 13-18 explain it clearly: starting at v.16: "for the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, & with the trump of God: & the dead in Christ shall rise 1st: then we which are alive & remain shall be caught together with them....." consider 1st Thessalonians 5:9- "for God hath NOT appointed man to wrath......" also, Romans 5:8,9 (9): "we shall be saved from wrath thru Him....."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Point being God is against any type rapture doctrine.

Consider: the word "fly" (2x in v.20) is a participle (an "-ing" kind of word);

...the following verse saying, "Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD." - Ezek13:21 (verse 23 says similar). This is not speaking in any way of "Rapture".




____________

LXX Septuagint - Ezek13:20 - "13:20 διὰ τοῦτο τάδε λέγει κύριος κύριος ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐπὶ τὰ προσκεφάλαια ὑμῶν ἐφ᾽ ἃ ὑμεῖς συστρέφετε ἐκεῖ ψυχάς καὶ διαρρήξω αὐτὰ ἀπὸ τῶν βραχιόνων ὑμῶν καὶ ἐξαποστελῶ τὰς ψυχάς ἃς ὑμεῖς ἐκστρέφετε τὰς ψυχὰς αὐτῶν εἰς διασκορπισμόν [/scattering]"

[kjv] "Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly."

 

[Nehemiah6]

Point being God is against any type rapture doctrine.

What utter rubbish! It is God who has planned the Resurrection/Rapture and will bring it to pass. Where do people get such silly ideas that God is "against" the Rapture when He was the one who raptured Enoch long, long ago?

 

[KeithB]

What utter rubbish! It is God who has planned the Resurrection/Rapture and will bring it to pass. Where do people get such silly ideas that God is "against" the Rapture when He was the one who raptured Enoch long, long ago?

Please show me that in the bible; it is not in my bible, and I use the 1611 KJV. If you have an open mind and spirit, I am willing to show you why I disagree, but I do not want to argue over Gods word. Discuss yes.

 

[KeithB]

Consider: the word "fly" (2x in v.20) is a participle (an "-ing" kind of word);

...the following verse saying, "Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD." - Ezek13:21 (verse 23 says similar). This is not speaking in any way of "Rapture".




____________

LXX Septuagint - Ezek13:20 - "13:20 διὰ τοῦτο τάδε λέγει κύριος κύριος ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐπὶ τὰ προσκεφάλαια ὑμῶν ἐφ᾽ ἃ ὑμεῖς συστρέφετε ἐκεῖ ψυχάς καὶ διαρρήξω αὐτὰ ἀπὸ τῶν βραχιόνων ὑμῶν καὶ ἐξαποστελῶ τὰς ψυχάς ἃς ὑμεῖς ἐκστρέφετε τὰς ψυχὰς αὐτῶν εἰς διασκορπισμόν [/scattering]"

[kjv] "Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly."

Are you trying to say that there is or is not a rapture. This old man's mind can be a little slow at times.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Please show me that in the bible; it is not in my bible, and I use the 1611 KJV. If you have an open mind and spirit, I am willing to show you why I disagree, but I do not want to argue over Gods word. Discuss yes.

1 THESSALONIANS 4: THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE IS A SOLID BIBLE DOCTRINE

A. GOD DOES NOT WANT CHRISTIANS TO BE IGNORANT REGARDING THE RAPTURE
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [Note: "asleep" means those who died in Christ]

B. THE RESURRECTION OF THE SAINTS IS GUARANTEED
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [Note: Christ will bring with Him from Heaven the souls and spirits of the saints who died in Christ. They will receive glorified bodies as noted in 1 Corinthians 15]

C. THE RESURRECTED SAINTS WILL PRECEDE THE RAPTURED SAINTS
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep.

D. CHRIST WILL COME PERSONALLY FROM HEAVEN TO RECEIVE HIS BRIDE
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:...

E. THE RESURRECTION OF THE SAINTS WILL TAKE PLACE FIRST
...and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

F. THE RAPTURE WILL OCCUR IMMEDIATELY AFTER THAT
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [Note: the raptured saints will also be perfect and receive glorified bodies at that time. See I Corinthians 15. All the saints will be taken to Heaven]

G. THE DOCTRINE OF THE RAPTURE IS TO COMFORT BELIEVERS
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[KeithB]

Stand Firm


Have you not read 2nd Thessalonians 2?
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Mark 13
14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: Do you not understand it?
You are not one of those people that thank the parables and Lazaras, and the rich man are just nice stories but have no real meaning are you?
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds Explained

(Zephaniah 1:1-6)



36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Show me a rapture in that!

 

[Nehemiah6]

Have you not read 2nd Thessalonians 2?

Why have you ignored what was posted and dodged to another passage? Was that which was posted clearly about the Resurrection/Rapture?

So are you prepared to admit that you were wrong and that it is indeed a Bible doctrine? Here's what you said: "Point being God is against any type rapture doctrine." So are you prepared to admit that you slandered God?

The reason there is so much animosity (hatred?) against the doctrine of the Rapture is because Satan hates the fact that God will finish the work which He has begun in His saints, and they shall be perfected and glorified. That is solely because of the grace of God and the finished work of Christ. And in spite of all the attacks from the devil.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The Bible nowhere suggests God will evacuate His people from trouble.

Really? What about Lot and his family? What about Noah and his family? But if you want trouble you can certainly ask for it, and you might receive it in spades. Just don't make silly statements.

 

[JaumeJ]

it's amazing how people think the tribulation will occur before the Rapture. 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 verses 13-18 explain it clearly: starting at v.16: "for the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, & with the trump of God: & the dead in Christ shall rise 1st: then we which are alive & remain shall be caught together with them....." consider 1st Thessalonians 5:9- "for God hath NOT appointed man to wrath......" also, Romans 5:8,9 (9): "we shall be saved from wrath thru Him....."

Is not the trump of God the Last Trump?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@KeithB 's Posts #5508 and #5510,

[#5510] Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
[...]
Show me a rapture in that!

There's no "rapture" in this Matthew 13 passage (upon which passage the disciples' question of Jesus in the later Matthew 24:3 context, and His 2-chpt response, was BASED), as "rapture" is not what is being covered in these passages anywhere;
Rather, His Second Coming to the earth and the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom which commences upon His RETURN there (to the earth).

That's the context here.

In fact, no "resurrection" is even being mentioned or referred to in this passage; it's covering the Subject of "still-living" persons at the time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19)



Likewise, "rapture [G726]" is not the context of Ezekiel 13:20.

[#5508] Are you trying to say that there is or is not a rapture. This old man's mind can be a little slow at times."

I'm saying that the Subject of "our Rapture" is not to be found anywhere in His Olivet Discourse (nor in the Matthew 13 passage, upon which their question of Him in Matt24:3 had been BASED); Up until the time of His speaking the Olivet Discourse (and His response throughout), He had not yet spoken anything regarding the Subject of "rapture [in the air]," but rather His Second Coming to the earth / RETURN to the earth (that which will occur in Rev19, following the "7-yr period, which is the "in quickness [noun]" time-period of Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1, i.e. the Tribulation Period commonly so-called).


[Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 (and its parallel in the Olivet Discourse, Matt24:42-51), which states, "when he will RETURN from the wedding..." ...THEN the meal (G347; see this word also in Matt8:11 and parallel, referring to the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His RETURN to the earth)]






One must properly ascertain which passages speak to the Subject of "our Rapture" and which passages do not (and the above-mentioned passages are not speaking to that Subject). We are called to [be] "correctly apportioning the word of truth."

Hope that clarifies what my intended meaning was in that post of mine you inquired about. = )

 

[Karlon]

Is not the trump of God the Last Trump?

funnneee Trump could be our last leader

 

[JaumeJ]

Not possible, his family name was changed from something like, Strumpf when his family immigraqted to the USA.