Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[The_Watchers_2017]

I understand your argument. I just don't agree with it.

that's cool.

in my view of what i just explained and why i went ahead and explained it, because it is different than the normal view of angels and women.

but knowing after the Flood God had Israel kill this people and that people and kept calling these DEAD PEOPLE SIN, and then kept referring this back to Genesis 6 each time, it could only work in the same manner that God would make His SEED able to become human, since angels have simple enough powers to do things. even the Bible specifically tells us Michael did not accuse Satan of anything, he just Rebuked him in the LORD's Name.

 

[Cameron143]

that's cool.

in my view of what i just explained and why i went ahead and explained it, because it is different than the normal view of angels and women.

but knowing after the Flood God had Israel kill this people and that people and kept calling these DEAD PEOPLE SIN, and then kept referring this back to Genesis 6 each time, it could only work in the same manner that God would make His SEED able to become human, since angels have simple enough powers to do things. even the Bible specifically tells us Michael did not accuse Satan of anything, he just Rebuked him in the LORD's Name.

If it's any consolation, I thought your explanation of your position was as good as any I have heard.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

If it's any consolation, I thought your explanation of your position was as good as any I have heard.

well, we know Satan rebelled and it was over Earth because God made him ruler of it.
and we know then the Garden and eating of the forbidden fruit happened.
then Giants and the sexual immorality and lovers of thyself led to the Flood.
then the Tower of Babel
then God killing multiple Races of people later on explains is a SIN. [this is a people so evil not even worthy of the death of Jesus][just wiped from existence].

reads like a Spiritual Warfare using humanity to me

 

[Cameron143]

well, we know Satan rebelled and it was over Earth because God made him ruler of it.
and we know then the Garden and eating of the forbidden fruit happened.
then Giants and the sexual immorality and lovers of thyself led to the Flood.
then the Tower of Babel
then God killing multiple Races of people later on explains is a SIN. [this is a people so evil not even worthy of the death of Jesus][just wiped from existence].

reads like a Spiritual Warfare using humanity to me

The same argument could be made of the book of Joshua on one level revealing truth about spiritual warfare.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

The same argument could be made of the book of Joshua on one level revealing truth about spiritual warfare.

great point!

Joshua led most of those Battles for Moses against people who were wiped out and God told Moses it's ok because those People are and represent this SIN.

God was truly Glorified each time He wiped away a result from Genesis 6, by the Flood and then the killing of specific peoples after the Flood, and David and Goliath [nephillim]..and more...

 

[brightfame52]

There is a people in this world called the elect and the ransomed of the Lord, These folks are such a huge multitude that no man can number them yet they are a specific number.

· They are termed “the elect” because they were chosen of God unto eternal life in Christ before the world began.

· These chosen ones are called “the ransomed of the Lord” because they are redeemed by the precious blood of Christ and redeemed from the curse of the law by the blood of God’s dear Son.

Rom 8:33

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Isa 35:10

And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

Rev 7:9

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Gal 3:13

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 5

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

There is a people in this world called the elect and the ransomed of the Lord, These folks are such a huge multitude that no man can number them yet they are a specific number.

· They are termed “the elect” because they were chosen of God unto eternal life in Christ before the world began.

· These chosen ones are called “the ransomed of the Lord” because they are redeemed by the precious blood of Christ and redeemed from the curse of the law by the blood of God’s dear Son.

Rom 8:33

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Isa 35:10

And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

Rev 7:9

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Gal 3:13

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 5

i know you have no clue, but you do realize that HALF of your Scripture Proofs [Revelation] is about when the 144k Evangelist are having End Time Revival and ALL Nations are saved in the END:
^
you do realize that this takes place after MID-POINT Tribulation, after the Man of Sin sits on the Throne, after the Mark and Number have been revealed...?
^
so
^
should you believe in the Pre-Wrath Rapture
^
that's a foolish Scripture Proof to be using for your humorous attempt to make a point.


in fact, ALL of your Scriptural Points have been yanked from what they really mean, where they are located in God's Word, and placed in your array to make them become false.


and your 1 Peter reference:
Jesus is FOR-ORDAINED, no one else in this passage of Scripture, this is solely about Jesus and you turned it into selection by God.

sad, just sad

 

[brightfame52]

That God chose individuals to Salvation in Election is bore out by the phrase names, which is personal.

Rev 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”


Lk 10:20 “Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.”

Phil 4:3 “And I entreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow-labourers, whose names are in the book of life.” 6

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

That God chose individuals to Salvation in Election is bore out by the phrase names, which is personal.

Rev 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”


Lk 10:20 “Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.”

Phil 4:3 “And I entreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow-labourers, whose names are in the book of life.” 6

God knows the End from the Beginning, that does not mean He is the single ONE sending His Creation to Hell.
You hate the fact that Satan had Free Will, Adam had Free Will, Everyone in the Bible but a few had Free Will.
you must truly hate Free Will!

 

[rogerg]

God knows the End from the Beginning, that does not mean He is the single ONE sending His Creation to Hell.
You hate the fact that Satan had Free Will, Adam had Free Will, Everyone in the Bible but a few had Free Will.
you must truly hate Free Will!

How much spiritual free will does someone have who is spiritually dead? Except for Christ - Adam and Eve who were spiritually alive once but who also died spiritually- brought spiritual death to all mankind. Therefore, if the spiritually dead have free will, they certainly don't/can't realize it, nor are they able to exercise it. God didn't use words loosely, casually, or figuratively in the Bible. When He said "dead", He meant dead, dead. The spiritually dead are spiritually oblivious.

[Eph 2:1, 5 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; ...
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[rogerg]

How much spiritual free will does someone have who is spiritually dead? Except for Christ - Adam and Eve who were spiritually alive once but who also died spiritually- brought spiritual death to all mankind. Therefore, if the spiritually dead have free will, they certainly don't/can't realize it, nor are they able to exercise it. God didn't use words loosely, casually, or figuratively in the Bible. When He said "dead", He meant dead, dead. The spiritually dead are spiritually oblivious.

*** I missed wrote "or figuratively in the Bible" in the above. What I meant to say was "or dead, figuratively in these verses". ***

[Eph 2:1, 5 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; ...
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

How much spiritual free will does someone have who is spiritually dead? Except for Christ - Adam and Eve who were spiritually alive once but who also died spiritually- brought spiritual death to all mankind. Therefore, if the spiritually dead have free will, they certainly don't/can't realize it, nor are they able to exercise it. God didn't use words loosely, casually, or figuratively in the Bible. When He said "dead", He meant dead, dead. The spiritually dead are spiritually oblivious.

[Eph 2:1, 5 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; ...
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

i am speaking about when everyone is awaken at least once to be able to think and contemplate if God is real and why i should believe kind of inner-self debating. look at Dawkins, best known current worldwide Atheist.
he thinks about God all the time so he can disbelieve in Him. he will be Judged because he chose to DENY God, not because God did not force him like you unbelievably think is required to be a Follower.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

How much spiritual free will does someone have who is spiritually dead?

Absolutely none, in fact man by nature is dead to spiritual things, and a slave to sin, this describes his will and state by nature Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Man naturally could not stop fulling the desires [will] of the flesh and of the mind.

Remember Jesus told some men this Jn 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

No did these people have the freewill to stop doing what Jesus said they will do ? Of course not, there goes freewill out the window !

 

[rogerg]

i am speaking about when everyone is awaken at least once to be able to think and contemplate if God is real and why i should believe kind of inner-self debating. look at Dawkins, best known current worldwide Atheist.
he thinks about God all the time so he can disbelieve in Him. he will be Judged because he chose to DENY God, not because God did not force him like you unbelievably think is required to be a Follower.

I believe that for the most part I understood your point, however, I think the verses I posted tell us otherwise. I do not
believe that anyone is awakened once to choose. We are told that no one understands so there is no awakening.
For with no understanding, then there can be no contemplation.

[Rom 3:10-11 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


The reason Dawkins came to his disbelief is BECAUSE he is spiritually dead. All who do not recognize Christ as Saviour in all ways,
demonstrate they are spiritually dead too. First, we must be saved and given spiritual life, from that, given an understanding/knowledge of salvation.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

God doesn't "force" as you say, instead, He gives life to the dead.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I believe that for the most part I understood your point, however, I think the verses I posted tell us otherwise. I do not
believe that anyone is awakened once to choose. We are told that no one understands so there is no awakening.
For with no understanding, then there can be no contemplation.

[Rom 3:10-11 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


The reason Dawkins came to his disbelief is BECAUSE he is spiritually dead. All who do not recognize Christ as Saviour in all ways,
demonstrate they are spiritually dead too. First, we must be saved and given spiritual life, from that, given an understanding/knowledge of salvation.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

God doesn't "force" as you say, instead, He gives life to the dead.

each time Dawkin's thinks about God, is that Satan, or God, putting that thought about God to him to think about?

 

[glf]

If election were unconditional, then the scripture would say that all who are called are chosen, but it doesn't, Scripture tells us, that "many are called, but few are chosen." This is because one must respond to the Lord's call in repentance with a godly sorrow and belief in the word of the Lord being ministered by the Holy Spirit. Jesus then authors their faith and the Holy Spirit indwells them forever. Salvation is meant to be eternal, but it is never forced; otherwise it would be impossible to blaspheme the Holy Spirit in the life to come and of no use whatsoever for the Lord to warn us of that choice. In eternity, we'll be choosing the Lord just by not doing it and sadly, it'll have the same consequence as those who reject the Lord in this life.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You appear to have a fixation on Calvin

Actually you are the one who is OBSESSED with Calvin's false theology. Just count the number of posts you have made trying to defend a false gospel instead of repenting and getting back to the truth. This is truly an obsession.

 

[brightfame52]

If election were unconditional, then the scripture would say that all who are called are chosen, but it doesn't, Scripture tells us, that "many are called, but few are chosen." This is because one must respond to the Lord's call in repentance with a godly sorrow and belief in the word of the Lord being ministered by the Holy Spirit. Jesus then authors their faith and the Holy Spirit indwells them forever. Salvation is meant to be eternal, but it is never forced; otherwise it would be impossible to blaspheme the Holy Spirit in the life to come and of no use whatsoever for the Lord to warn us of that choicEle. In eternity, we'll be choosing the Lord just by not doing it and sadly, it'll have the same consequence as those who reject the Lord in this life.

Election to Salvation is unconditional.

 

[glf]

Election to Salvation is unconditional.

Why stop there? What about the total depravity of man, or limited atonement, or irresistible grace, or perseverance of the saints?
The perfect package of beliefs for newborn believers to ignore their faith and their relationship with the Lord. Perfect for the last days, sadly, because "except there is a falling away, the end shall not come."

These doctrines prepare the way for: 2 Tim 4: 1 KJV "The Spirit speaketh expressly that in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and the doctrines of devils.

1 Jn 5: 4 KJV "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world, and this is the victory that has overcometh the world, even our faith."

Eph 2: 8 KJV "For by grace are ye saved through faith and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, least any man should boast."

2 Pet 2: 20, 21 KJV "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse than in the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they had known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."
What was the holy commandment, you might ask...
1 Jn 3: 22 KJV "And this is his commandment, that we believe upon the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."

I could go on and on with scripture that show faith is required for salvation, and how some depart from the faith. And of course, what's the catch all, (they weren't really saved).
Sadly, the truth feels exactly the same as error and faith feels just like belief. Inferring what scripture means rather than what it says only compounds the issue of seeing the truth through a glass darkly. The Lord has magnified his word above all his name and has made it eternal: The Lord says exactly what he means.

 

[brightfame52]

Why stop there? What about the total depravity of man, or limited atonement, or irresistible grace, or perseverance of the saints?
The perfect package of beliefs for newborn believers to ignore their faith and their relationship with the Lord. Perfect for the last days, sadly, because "except there is a falling away, the end shall not come."

These doctrines prepare the way for: 2 Tim 4: 1 KJV "The Spirit speaketh expressly that in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and the doctrines of devils.

1 Jn 5: 4 KJV "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world, and this is the victory that has overcometh the world, even our faith."

Eph 2: 8 KJV "For by grace are ye saved through faith and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, least any man should boast."

2 Pet 2: 20, 21 KJV "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse than in the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they had known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."
What was the holy commandment, you might ask...
1 Jn 3: 22 KJV "And this is his commandment, that we believe upon the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."

I could go on and on with scripture that show faith is required for salvation, and how some depart from the faith. And of course, what's the catch all, (they weren't really saved).
Sadly, the truth feels exactly the same as error and faith feels just like belief. Inferring what scripture means rather than what it says only compounds the issue of seeing the truth through a glass darkly. The Lord has magnified his word above all his name and has made it eternal: The Lord says exactly what he means.

Unconditional Election of individuals took place before the world began, before the elected ones had any physical being to have had performed any conditions Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

That Election is unconditional cannot be made any plainer to those who have eyes to see.