Nonresistance

[HopeinHim98]

What are your thoughts on Matthew 5:38-45:

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain .42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

For years I have believed similar to most Anabaptist groups, that these verses teach that we may not use force to defend ourselves.

I've been questioning this interpretation lately because of a few different reasons. It doesn't seem to line up with God's character to do nothing when you see someone about to get hurt, or to allow someone to violate you any way they choose. (You may think this extreme, but some take it that far.)

But Jesus obviously changed SOMETHING in the above verses from how things were done up to that point!

What does Jesus mean here?

 

[JohnDB]

Defense of those who can't defend themselves is very much what Jesus did for us.

We couldn't defend ourselves from the effects of sin in our lives....but Jesus could and did.

So if we are to emulate Jesus....then coming to the defense of others is just. And since we no longer own ourselves....we have to come to our own defense.

Locking our doors, keeping valuables secured....all within the expected norms. Jesus had keys to offer....as in a means to unlock doors to access treasure.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

😁

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

What are your thoughts on Matthew 5:38-45:

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain .42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

For years I have believed similar to most Anabaptist groups, that these verses teach that we may not use force to defend ourselves.

I've been questioning this interpretation lately because of a few different reasons. It doesn't seem to line up with God's character to do nothing when you see someone about to get hurt, or to allow someone to violate you any way they choose. (You may think this extreme, but some take it that far.)

But Jesus obviously changed SOMETHING in the above verses from how things were done up to that point!

What does Jesus mean here?

The Lord give specific examples as to what He means. When I study the Bible, I have often disregarded things I've been taught in the past to keep an open mind to learning new things. Not that there is anything new, however I don't know it all and neither did my pastors. I must humble myself and use the rules of interpretation, comparing Scripture with Scripture, context, etc.

Let's look at what Jesus said in this passage.
In regards to not resisting evil, what did Jesus give as an example?

If someone rapes, burns and pillages your community, offer the sister community across the road also?

No
He specifically said "smite thee."
You've probably heard about how some police talk about criminals on drugs. They can have superhuman power and kill a bunch of people with their bare hands, etc.
I once was tested on that as well as other times. An acquaintance of someone I went to school approached me. I was told that he just took a bunch of amphetamines. He approached me strangely in a small group of us guys talking. Out of the blue he punched me in the face with a sucker punch. They call it "the knockout game" if you look it up on YouTube. I didn't hit him back, but told his friend to "Come get him NOW Before he gets hurt!"
That ended it in that situation.
Smite on the face can also be an insult that needs not to escalate.
99% Of personal pacifists have not experienced the receiving end of gross violence. I have had many attacks on my life with single and multiple opponents, weapons of all sort used against me, and loved ones....A demon possessed "lady," legal attacks from crooks, the biggest crooked law firm in my state, you name it.
There's nothing like experience to motivate Christians to study their Bibles enough to come to personal convictions. God is my Defender, but He expects a man to act like a man when confronted with a violent person.

About turning the other cheek.
What would an Anabaptist do if some evil murderous rapist attacked his daughter?...
Would he offer the other?
This may sound like a ridiculous premise to those who have never been around anyone who was violent. I had 12 ladies confide in me while attending WVU that they had been raped by strangers or acquaintances on a date. I led a Christian group and sometimes I was sought for direction and prayers.
If I knew 12 ladies that happened to, then it's more common than most people think.
Since I trained to combat violence I taught Ladies Self Defense programs.
I never invited the Rape and Domestic Violence Center to speak to our ladies because they push them to comply with the rapists.
The Bible tells us that crime is a capital offense to be punishable by execution if there is proof and conviction is made by the judge. Jesus never reversed that law by His statement recorded in Matthew chapter 5.
The times He commanded defense of family and community has never been reversed either has it?

I can empathize with my Mennonite and Bruderhof sisters in the upcoming dilemma as we approach what looks like tribulation on the horizon. I am certainly on the same side with you and your friends even though we disagree on this subject.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

Part 2: Love your enemies

Upcoming this week.

 

[Gojira]

Part 2: Love your enemies

Upcoming this week.

Oooo I can't wait

 

[EricH]

Jesus said, two swords was enough between his disciples. When Peter used his sword, Jesus rebuked him and healed the man's ear.
True justice rarely happens here on Earth, only God has the power to put things right. Jesus died on the cross, God raised him from the dead.

Millions of people are murdered, raped and violently assulted. Our justice system cannot stop this happening, it might slightly limit acts of violence. At some point, we shall all stand before God, only then will true justice happen.

Psalm 51
A psalm of David. When the prophet Nathan came to him after David had committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed.
1 Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight;

 

[Gojira]

Jesus said, two swords was enough between his disciples. When Peter used his sword, Jesus rebuked him and healed the man's ear.
True justice rarely happens here on Earth, only God has the power to put things right. Jesus died on the cross, God raised him from the dead.

Millions of people are murdered, raped and violently assulted. Our justice system cannot stop this happening, it might slightly limit acts of violence. At some point, we shall all stand before God, only then will true justice happen.

Psalm 51
A psalm of David. When the prophet Nathan came to him after David had committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed.
1 Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight;

And, nevertheless, to temper the effects of sin, God instituted good government. Just because they're not a cure-all doesn't mean that human institutions have no purpose or validity. Now, I agree that God will hold everyone accountable for what they did with what He gave them, including judicial power. But, without these institutions at all, we'd all live in a "state of nature" as the founders described, and you would not want that.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

Jesus said, two swords was enough between his disciples. When Peter used his sword, Jesus rebuked him and healed the man's ear.
True justice rarely happens here on Earth, only God has the power to put things right. Jesus died on the cross, God raised him from the dead.

Millions of people are murdered, raped and violently assulted. Our justice system cannot stop this happening, it might slightly limit acts of violence. At some point, we shall all stand before God, only then will true justice happen.

Psalm 51
A psalm of David. When the prophet Nathan came to him after David had committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed.
1 Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight;

Just in case nobody has ever read the command the Lord of His Armies/Hosts gave before his men came up with those two swords, here's the quote in Luke 22.

And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end."

We note that Jesus did not tell them to buy fillet knives for fishing and prepping meals. He commanded His men to buy a sword if they had the money/ script that would perhaps have been in the purse he referred to. Originally they were to assist His ministry high-speed, ultra-light from town to town with no extra provisions like an extra pair of shoes or hiking stick. They were to be fed by the people in the towns to provide their meals. Now, if they still didn't have any personal money, they were to sell something they needed, a garment (perhaps a coat), to buy something they needed more. The sword was carried like it always was, for self defense. Jesus never told them to join the Roman legion. They were in His Army. Their battles were against principalities and powers, spiritual wickedness in high places.
They did that which the Romans and Jews could not do. They defeated demonic forces, the battles against the invisible army if Satan.

What my Brethren friends did not understand is that Christians who walk with the Lord of Hosts have not ONLY battles against the damned demons, but they ALSO have the same threats as everyone else on this planet, sometimes much more.
Those who cause harm did not suddenly go away when I got saved. They like to use Ephesians 6:12 as their go to "proof text." It seems that some of the sheltered think they did because they never so much as got picked on or had a fist fight on the playground. They think they are in the spiritual battles and that they are completely immune from any physical conflicts from here on out. This is probably because their pastors have misled their families. The pastors get a corkscrew, stick it into Ephesians 6:12, twist ( II Corinthians 2:17 ) and then wrench it out of the entire Bible from so many hundred plus examples of violence against God's people. If someone never experienced the receiving end of violent assault yet, then of course they should just be grateful. Nothing is guarantee tomorrow as organized crime makes billions of dollars transporting illegals across the southern border of the US. There's already a major violent crime problem in the states.
Random Attacks from Racal Supremacists 2:15 Mark (violence warning)

Paul who wrote Ephesians also told the Church at Corinth of his qualifications through sufferings. His list is found HERE .
God told the Saul's first contact as a believer how he was to suffer for Christ's sake. Much of that was physical.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Jesus said, two swords was enough between his disciples. When Peter used his sword, Jesus rebuked him and healed the man's ear.
True justice rarely happens here on Earth, only God has the power to put things right. Jesus died on the cross, God raised him from the dead.

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).

Grace, Peace, And JOY!… + RICH Blessings

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

Jesus explained to His disciples WHY indeed He wanted them to purchase a sword.

"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end."

The Jewish preachers were teaching in their synagogues that the Messiah/ Christ would conquer the empire and deliver Israel from the Romans. Then there would be peace and no more violence. The reference from Isaiah that is quoted out of context at the Communist United Nations building with the graven image of the gun with twisted barrel reminds me of how they twist scriptures and wish to disarm the world so they "have a monopoly of force." Communism is the official doctrine of the U.N.
Communism only is realized under enforced socialism which disarms the peasants. When everyone is weak and become victims, then the communist Oligarchs/ dictators are strong. That's why they did not reference Joel 3:10.

"Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong."

They reject the Bible as the very Word of God. Even the Devil's own servants will quote Scripture as it suits their agenda.
This is their pet verse from Isaiah.

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

This verse is about the Lord's reign on earth.
They leave the LORD out of it because they want to be the god of the earth. They want to control all nations as the United Nations. A united tower of Babel so to speak. That's why the Devil wants the nations, the people to be disarmed. He cares nothing of God's people.
Does the Devil desire God's people to be protected from his lawless heathen thieves, rapists and murderers?
Of course not. He wants his own people to destroy God's people.

Why does Jesus want His people to have the means to defend their own lives?
Is it so He can turn around and say to them, Just joking, faked you out, I really want you to allow murderers to slaughter rape and pillage your families?
That's the interpretation of many well meaning pastors. They teach that Jesus was telling Peter to get rid of his sword and disregard His previous command.
He said Nothing of the sort. John 18:10 Jesus said,

"Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. .Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?"

Note that Jesus didn't tell Peter to turn his sword over to the "authorities." Nor did Jesus say to pound it into a hoe for gardening. He wasn't some lost preacher telling Peter that's
not really what I told you before "in the original Greek. "

"Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath...."

He told him to reholster his weapon.
Peter misused his weapon. That was not Jesus ' purpose in the command for Peter to go around protecting Jesus from the cup of His sacrifice.

Why did He tell Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath
"the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?"

The cup was the mock trial of mocking, ripping the flesh from His back which would carry the burdens of all of our sins as Jesus hung from the cross amongst" the transgressors, " one on either side. See Luke 22

"And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end."

That was Jesus ' cup. We don't work our way to heaven. He finished the work.

As well meaning as Peter was, he did not understand yet why Jesus asked him about the sword earlier. It wasn't to prevent Christ from paying for the sins of the world. Many well meaning preachers miss not only the part about the sword, but more importantly the part about the finality of Christ's payment for sin. It has ended. It was finished. We can add nothing to that work.

Once Jesus did pay for our sins, the world continued to be a very violent place didn't it?
Is it not violent today?
When Christ returns, He will conquer Satan's armies and establish His kingdom of peace.
Until then, it will only get worse as we see the day approaching. His first time here, He did not come to bring peace.
He came to offer salvation from hell.

God forbid, but if some horrible person took your life today, EricH, are you 100% sure that you would be in heaven?

 

[studentoftheword]

God made Laws against retaliation so there would be some kind of order for it ------In the Old Testament if any dispute or physical altercations happened they were to be settled in a Court ---not by the individual people ----

With our Sinful Nature -----we can go overboard with our personal retaliation ----we want more than just an eye for an eye ---tooth for tooth -etc ----that will not satisfy most sinners --we want total revenge ---

But we who live in this world but are no longer of this world need act different toward our enemy ---(neighbour )-_---we need to be in control of our anger ------that is not to say that we need to be pounded and just do nothing ----we need to be slow to anger and be in control of our emotions -----we are Commanded to Agape our neighbour ---enemy -----not beat him up -----

No one was more beaten ---punched ----mocked ---bruised ----humiliated --degraded ----than Jesus was and He forgave His persecuters -----Jesus is our example of how to handle ourselves in bad situations ---Jesus showed Righteous Anger when He overturned the money changers tables in the Temple yard ---this keep Jesus free form Sin ------

 

[studentoftheword]

Good Article on this ----worth the read -------

https://bible.org/seriespage/16-kingdom-response-personal-injustice-matthew-538-42
The Kingdom Response To Personal Injustice (Matthew 5:38-42)

 

[awelight]

What are your thoughts on Matthew 5:38-45:

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain .42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

For years I have believed similar to most Anabaptist groups, that these verses teach that we may not use force to defend ourselves.

I've been questioning this interpretation lately because of a few different reasons. It doesn't seem to line up with God's character to do nothing when you see someone about to get hurt, or to allow someone to violate you any way they choose. (You may think this extreme, but some take it that far.)

But Jesus obviously changed SOMETHING in the above verses from how things were done up to that point!

What does Jesus mean here?

Our Lord's teaching, in the above, is about being loving towards our fellow man. It is the picture of a perfect person in an imperfect world. If everyone of us, did what the Lord was teaching here, then there would be no animosity. No jealousy. No immoral desires. No anger. No physical or verbal violence. The parable of the "Good Samaritan" are these teachings in practice.

How many of us would help a stranger... no not a stranger... an enemy in this way? He rescued him from the side of the road. Transported him to an Inn. Told the Innkeeper to take care of him and gave him money for the strangers extended stay. Even told the Innkeeper, if the money was not sufficient, he would return and settle up the bill.

I would dare say... not many of us. But all believers should strive to put on Christ. For if God can provide for sinners redemption, through His Only Son and forgive us - then we should be able to forgive our enemies.

Having said all that - it is not a prohibition on believers defending themselves. Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

However, there are many warnings, that state if one resorts to verbal abuses or physical violence, then that one should expect the same in kind. Examples: He who relies on a sword - will die by the sword. He who judges another - will be judged by another. Etc...

 

[Bruce_Leiter]

What are your thoughts on Matthew 5:38-45:

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain .42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

For years I have believed similar to most Anabaptist groups, that these verses teach that we may not use force to defend ourselves.

I've been questioning this interpretation lately because of a few different reasons. It doesn't seem to line up with God's character to do nothing when you see someone about to get hurt, or to allow someone to violate you any way they choose. (You may think this extreme, but some take it that far.)

But Jesus obviously changed SOMETHING in the above verses from how things were done up to that point!

What does Jesus mean here?

Jesus is saying that we aren't to take any form of revenge against other people who seek to do us harm. However, the fact that God is a just God gives us the right to seek justice and changes in the attacks that people may level against us. Then, we must submit to the authorities who make decisions. The word for "gentleness" means to assert ourselves with our ideas and feelings but them submit to people's decisions after we have asserted ourselves. Then, we must give the right to judge others to God, the perfect Judge.

 

[oyster67]

For years I have believed similar to most Anabaptist groups, that these verses teach that we may not use force to defend ourselves.

That is the way of Jesus, who is the example for all modern believers.
1 Peter 2:23
“Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:”

 

[oyster67]

Romans 12:19
“Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.”

 

[oyster67]

It doesn't seem to line up with God's character to do nothing when you see someone about to get hurt, or to allow someone to violate you any way they choose.

We are to serve God, not play God.

Remember the Spanish Inquisition. Remember the Crusades.

He is the parent. We are the Child. He is able.

We are weak, but He is strong.

 

[oyster67]

Matthew 26:52
“Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.”

 

[JaumeJ]

That is the way of Jesus, who is the example for all modern believers.
1 Peter 2:23
“Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:”

That's our blessed Lord, amen.