* Trigger Warning* Biblical clarification re: suffering abuse

Tararose · Jun 13, 2023

Please do not read on or join in if you are suffering because of abuse, or past abuse.
I do not want to cause anyone any upset or pain, and I don't want this to turn into a counselling or comfort thread, as vital as counsel and comfort are to anyone suffering in any way.

I am hoping commenters will avoid giving opinions and personal testimonies, and so on, and that we can just engage in a thorough examination of the scriptures on the subject, all and any of which may be triggering. There are other recent threads where this sort of thing is being discussed and they would really be a better place for anyone emotionally involved in the topic.

okay... so I was thinking about this topic as I read through the recent thread about Bad Marriages and God joining Couples together.
I didn't want to hijack the thread so decided to start a new one, that would just examine the scriptures on this topic of suffering abuse, and nothing else.

Asking the scholars among us to help, so hopefully wont end up with lots of angry critics...

At the risk of being taken the wrong way, I was wondering recently, why I and many other Christians, who would say we source our advice from Scripture, advocate abuse as a reason for divorce. I have myself often said a woman or a man being beaten by a spouse should certainly separate, though if I am being honest I could find no scripture to back that up. I thought it was plain commonsense and compassion I guess. I can find things that say God hates the innocent suffering, He hates men hurting their wives, sure, but nothing that says anyone is actually free to leave such a situation. I know also that men are instructed to love their wives etc. But, that isn't the point God seems to be addressing here, He obviously isn't justifying bad behaviour, abuse or mistreatment of others in these texts, but he doesn't seem to offer any way out for those who suffer it either.

I just want to make it clear that I am not saying I believe people should stay in abusive situation. I am not even saying God believes that.
My heart breaks for those who experience the horror of being trapped in abusive situations of any kind, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But, I recently quoted a passage of scripture elsewhere, to show that a woman should not leave her husband (generally speaking) and vice versa. I looked at it again and suddenly realised it started with LIKEWISE, WIVES.... so I went back and read the proceeding portion of scripture to see what came before it.

The portion I read was as follows, I have underlined the portions that concerned me, and which all appear to be very much connected.
1 Peter 2

18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. 19 For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. 20 For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God. 21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. 22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. 23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. 24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
(Continues straight into chapter 3)
Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they see your respectful and pure conduct. 3 Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— 4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. 5 For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

Slaves and women here appear to be under the same instruction, which is to adhere to the same example as Christ, who willingly and unjustly suffered as our example.

It is also clear that the other example given for women is that of a woman who called her husband Lord, meaning master, and who did so without fear of what could be called frightening - perhaps alluding to the possible repercussions of having an unconditional attitude of submission to someone in authority over you, such as those that slaves with wicked masters suffered, and that christ suffered at the hands of his torturers. They have to submit to even those who do not obey the word, which would include the instructions to love their wives and treat them well etc.

I was also reminded of God's response to Hagar running away from severe mistreatment, and being made to return and to submit.

Gen 16
6...Sarai treated Hagar so harshly that she fled from her.
7Now the angel of the LORD found Hagar by a spring of water in the desert—the spring along the road to Shur.
8“Hagar, servant of Sarai,” he said, “where have you come from, and where are you going?”
“I am running away from my mistress Sarai,” she replied.
9So the angel of the LORD told her, “Return to your mistress and submit to her authority.”

Yes, he does go on to tell her that her lineage will be blessed, but that would still be at the cost of going back to be mistreated, probably even enduring beatings and the like. There is no suggestion that Sarah laid off her mistreatment of Hagar at that point, treatment so severe a woman was willing to take her son and ran way into the wilderness.

I also think about Job, whom God permitted to be mistreated of by the devil, to the point of despairing of his own life. Yes blessing came after, but what a cost he paid, and what pain he was allowed to endure before hand.

1 Peter 2 and 3 seem to indicate the same is expected of slaves and women, with the assurance of being blessed if they submit and suffer unjustly as a result of that submitting, just as Christ did. I know that it sounds very unreasonable to us, but I am have not found any loop-holes to get me out of what these verses seems to be saying.

So there you go, that is my dilemma at the moment in understanding this whole issue biblically, so that I can aline my understanding with all of the word of God, and not my human reasoning, or mere humanistic instincts.

PLEASE do not criticise and condemn me for it seeming to say the opposite of what I would like it to say. That is totally pointless. I am asking to be biblically educated about this, by those who know more than I do and can show me from scripture, where I may have missed something and misunderstood these texts.

I am not certainly not happy about seeing the connection and I seriously hope to be corrected scripturally, with kindness and gentleness, as instructed in 2 Timothy 2. (I think that is in my signature if you want the exact quote.)

I know I am risking being mis-judged, but I am doing this in hopes someone can direct me to other unambiguous, clear scriptures relating to this topic, that I am struggling to find, that would explain, or even hopefully somehow nullify, this seeming instruction to not only allow yourself to be beaten and mistreated, but to go so far as to honour or show respect to those who are inflicting it on you.

Thanks in advance.

EternalFire · Jun 13, 2023

Here are a couple of videos to help you with your research.

Karlon · Jun 13, 2023

Tararose said:

Please do not read on or join in if you are suffering because of abuse, or past abuse.
I do not want to cause anyone any upset or pain, and I don't want this to turn into a counselling or comfort thread, as vital as counsel and comfort are to anyone suffering in any way.

I am hoping commenters will avoid giving opinions and personal testimonies, and so on, and that we can just engage in a thorough examination of the scriptures on the subject, all and any of which may be triggering. There are other recent threads where this sort of thing is being discussed and they would really be a better place for anyone emotionally involved in the topic.

okay... so I was thinking about this topic as I read through the recent thread about Bad Marriages and God joining Couples together.
I didn't want to hijack the thread so decided to start a new one, that would just examine the scriptures on this topic of suffering abuse, and nothing else.

Asking the scholars among us to help, so hopefully wont end up with lots of angry critics...

At the risk of being taken the wrong way, I was wondering recently, why I and many other Christians, who would say we source our advice from Scripture, advocate abuse as a reason for divorce. I have myself often said a woman or a man being beaten by a spouse should certainly separate, though if I am being honest I could find no scripture to back that up. I thought it was plain commonsense and compassion I guess. I can find things that say God hates the innocent suffering, He hates men hurting their wives, sure, but nothing that says anyone is actually free to leave such a situation. I know also that men are instructed to love their wives etc. But, that isn't the point God seems to be addressing here, He obviously isn't justifying bad behaviour, abuse or mistreatment of others in these texts, but he doesn't seem to offer any way out for those who suffer it either.

I just want to make it clear that I am not saying I believe people should stay in abusive situation. I am not even saying God believes that.
My heart breaks for those who experience the horror of being trapped in abusive situations of any kind, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But, I recently quoted a passage of scripture elsewhere, to show that a woman should not leave her husband (generally speaking) and vice versa. I looked at it again and suddenly realised it started with LIKEWISE, WIVES.... so I went back and read the proceeding portion of scripture to see what came before it.

The portion I read was as follows, I have underlined the portions that concerned me, and which all appear to be very much connected.
1 Peter 2

18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. 19 For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. 20 For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God. 21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. 22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. 23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. 24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
(Continues straight into chapter 3)
Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they see your respectful and pure conduct. 3 Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— 4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. 5 For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

Slaves and women here appear to be under the same instruction, which is to adhere to the same example as Christ, who willingly and unjustly suffered as our example.

It is also clear that the other example given for women is that of a woman who called her husband Lord, meaning master, and who did so without fear of what could be called frightening - perhaps alluding to the possible repercussions of having an unconditional attitude of submission to someone in authority over you, such as those that slaves with wicked masters suffered, and that christ suffered at the hands of his torturers. They have to submit to even those who do not obey the word, which would include the instructions to love their wives and treat them well etc.

I was also reminded of God's response to Hagar running away from severe mistreatment, and being made to return and to submit.

Gen 16
6...Sarai treated Hagar so harshly that she fled from her.
7Now the angel of the LORD found Hagar by a spring of water in the desert—the spring along the road to Shur.
8“Hagar, servant of Sarai,” he said, “where have you come from, and where are you going?”
“I am running away from my mistress Sarai,” she replied.
9So the angel of the LORD told her, “Return to your mistress and submit to her authority.”

Yes, he does go on to tell her that her lineage will be blessed, but that would still be at the cost of going back to be mistreated, probably even enduring beatings and the like. There is no suggestion that Sarah laid off her mistreatment of Hagar at that point, treatment so severe a woman was willing to take her son and ran way into the wilderness.

I also think about Job, whom God permitted to be mistreated of by the devil, to the point of despairing of his own life. Yes blessing came after, but what a cost he paid, and what pain he was allowed to endure before hand.

1 Peter 2 and 3 seem to indicate the same is expected of slaves and women, with the assurance of being blessed if they submit and suffer unjustly as a result of that submitting, just as Christ did. I know that it sounds very unreasonable to us, but I am have not found any loop-holes to get me out of what these verses seems to be saying.

So there you go, that is my dilemma at the moment in understanding this whole issue biblically, so that I can aline my understanding with all of the word of God, and not my human reasoning, or mere humanistic instincts.

PLEASE do not criticise and condemn me for it seeming to say the opposite of what I would like it to say. That is totally pointless. I am asking to be biblically educated about this, by those who know more than I do and can show me from scripture, where I may have missed something and misunderstood these texts.

I am not certainly not happy about seeing the connection and I seriously hope to be corrected scripturally, with kindness and gentleness, as instructed in 2 Timothy 2. (I think that is in my signature if you want the exact quote.)

I know I am risking being mis-judged, but I am doing this in hopes someone can direct me to other unambiguous, clear scriptures relating to this topic, that I am struggling to find, that would explain, or even hopefully somehow nullify, this seeming instruction to not only allow yourself to be beaten and mistreated, but to go so far as to honour or show respect to those who are inflicting it on you.

Thanks in advance.

it could be as simple as this: common sense- i still have never heard of anyone remaining in a marriage while being beaten. to me, common sense says get out now if being beaten. God understands. & if you want to get married again, why should it be that you can't get married again while you did nothing wrong? why should you suffer from what some criminal did to you? makes sense, right? also, the Bible doesn't say that God WANTS YOU TO REMAIN in a marriage while being beaten! girls, if your married, the 1st time you get beat, get out immediately!!!!!!! you are innocent, remember that!!!! & after, don't let the devil try to con you into believing your guilty. that's my take on it.

Dino246 · Jun 13, 2023

A verse I consider relevant to this topic is Malachi 2:16 "For I hate divorce,” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “and him who covers his garment with violence,” says the Lord of armies. “So be careful about your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously.”

That's from the NASB. When you consider how other translations render it, the verse suggests that God hates spousal abuse as much as He hates divorce.

Tararose · Jun 13, 2023

Karlon said:

Thank you for your concern for victims of abuse.

However, as the opening lines of the first post stated clearly, this thread is really not suitable for anyone affected by abuse.

I also strongly recommended those affected by abuse NOT read any further, because it most probably would NOT beneficial to do so.

I gave a clear TRIGGER WARNING in the title, so I would not expect any abuse victims to have got so far as to have read your impassioned response that seemed to be directed and written to people suffering due to abuse.

Also I expressed I held similar views to your own, but my problem was that the scriptures I found seemed to be contrary to what you and I would consider common-sense understanding on the issue of suffering abuse.

Only because of that, I wrote this post, asking only more information from the scriptures to find out more of WHAT GOD SAYS on the issue.

Again I sincerely appreciate you wanting to encourage and to help others, and we can all agree that abuse is a terrible evil and fighting it and helping victims is a worthy cause. But, as I already explained, there are already other, currently active posts, where it would be far more appropriate to offer counsel, comfort and to advise people on this issue.

If you can instead please read the scriptures I shared, and respond with any countering verses, or verses that further explain, or that somehow nullify the instruction that seems to be found in those verses I have shared, that would really be appreciated.

Tararose · Jun 13, 2023

Dino246 said:

Thank you, and yes, I agree of course these verses indicated God hates abuse, as I said in my original post.

But, the problem comes from the fact we are not talking about if God condemns or how He instructs abusive people.
His hating abuse does not nullify the verses I shared, especially in 1 Peter 2 and 3 that appear to tell people to suffer unjustly.

Not my idea, just paraphrasing the original verses I shared as its a large portion to copy out again.

If that one verse about God hating abuse in the old testemant, nullifies the whole passage of scriptures I shared from the New Testament, we are in trouble.

1 Peter 2 and 3 used Christ, who submitted to being abused by wicked people, to unjustly suffering - as the example that backed up the instructions to the slaves in the verses preceding it, and the wives in the verses straight after it.

I am sure God hated the violence of the men who tortured and killed Jesus, as much as the violence of the wicked slave masters, and the unjust husbands and so on. But that isn't the point made in these verses. Can you read them and say that the whole passage, is encouraging to those who suffer for no reason, that they will be blessed if they suffer well? Does it not even seem to commend those who take abuse for doing good etc?

I know it defies our logic, but we can't throw it out because we don't like it, we have to use scripture to explain scripture surely? Is this not the same as the turning the other cheek principle? I am not insisting it is, but I can't deny it still looks that way.

God hated the pain Job suffered at the hands of the Devil, the cruel treatment of Hagar, the stoning of Stephen and so on and so on. Yet He permitted it all. He gave the official OK for Job's suffering, He told Hagar to go back and submit, and he seems to be saying the same to the people in this passage.

But, one thing we definitely can agree on, and can say for certain from the verse you shared and from many others in scripture like it, is that God hates abuse and condemns evil people who abuse others.

Tararose · Jun 13, 2023

EternalFire said:

Thank you, when I have time I will try and get through all this.
In the meantime, if you could just post the highlights and the main verses and outcome of the study, that would be brilliant.

studentoftheword · Jun 13, 2023

Tararose said:

I say this to you -----we need to understand that the Scripture is speaking to Born Again Holy Spirit indwelled Married Christians -----God makes it very plain that a believer should never be yoked an unbeliever -----so that is for starters ----we should take Heed to God's warning about a true Christian getting involved with an unbeliever who has no control over their emotions -----Anger comes from fear which is Satan's Hook -----you cannot be in Fear and say you Love God by faith at the same time -----Jesus said your either with me or against me ------

2 Corinthians 6:14----Amplified Bible

14 Do not be unequally bound together with unbelievers [do not make mismatched alliances with them, inconsistent with your faith]. For what partnership can righteousness have with lawlessness? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

I say -----So here is the thing as to why there is really no scripture about separating or divorcing because of abuse problems in a True Christian Marriage ------as believers take The First Command to Love God seriously -----this love here is Agape ----not human love ------and if you Agape God you will want to please Him and so violence should not be not in a true Christian marriage as True Christians are suppose to be in control of their emotions ----and show Agape to each other -----not violence -----if one says they are a Christians and shows violence to their partner ---I would say they are a not a True Christian ------Many ---many people call themselves Christians but but are false Christians who are under their god Satan ------

But no person who is an a violent relationship or marriage should stay in that toxic environment those people are very insecure within their own self and they are gripped with fear if they feel they have to stay in a violent relationship -----and again Fear is Satan's hook--- he is a master at destroying families and individual humans ---

When God says ----Husbands Love your Wives ----and Wives Love your Husbands ----this Love is Agape and this Love never fails to keep the marriage in tact ------Unbelievers have only human love and it is a very demanding love ----and will fail and never holds back anger ------True Christians have Grace to call on for strength in their weakness ---and True Christians are to mature in their walk with Christ -----violence comes from the world -----peace --harmony and Love comes from God ----

God said

Now as far as 1 Peter 2:20 goes and ! Peter 3:17 goes ---

I think you really need to research what the context is in these 2 scriptures as this is not talking abuse in a marriage ------this is speaking about how a True Christian should live in a Pagan world ------it is about being persecuted by people for doing good ------and how Jesus bore His sufferings for us and how He conducted Himself under unrighteous sufferings by unbelievers

Living Godly Lives in a Pagan Society
11 Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul.

12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority,

14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right

15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.

16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. 17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.

18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

19 For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God.

20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.

21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Peter 3 is speaking again of how a true Christian should conduct themselves in a Pagan world ---

13 Usually no one will hurt you for wanting to do good.

14 But even if they should, you are to be envied, for God will reward you for it.

15 Quietly trust yourself to Christ your Lord, and if anybody asks why you believe as you do, be ready to tell him, and do it in a gentle and respectful way.

16 Do what is right; then if men speak against you, calling you evil names, they will become ashamed of themselves for falsely accusing you when you have only done what is good.

17 Remember, if God wants you to suffer, it is better to suffer for doing good than for doing wrong!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I say -----I think your taking scripture out of context and lumping them in with violence in a marriage and saying that it seems that God allows abuse in marriage -----and that is simply not the Case ----in my view ----

Karlon · Jun 13, 2023

Dino246 said:

Tararose said:

that is the "more" info i'm offering! respectfully to you, i'll end here.

Tararose · Jun 13, 2023

Karlon said:

I think we may have got ours wires crossed somewhere. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Mem · Jun 13, 2023

When presented with the question whether a man can divorce his wife for any reason, Jesus answered that, "for the hardness of your hearts, Moses permitted divorce..." And 'hardness of heart' is commonly used as an idiom of unbelief, or unfaithfulness. IOW, Moses offered divorce as a convenience to accommodate the lack of faith in one another within the marriage (as exampled in Deuteronomy divorce law that if a man takes a wife and finds her displeasing, or loses faith in her, he must give her a certificate of divorce and then, if her parents want to challenge his claim, they must present her proof of virginity... and this is the reason Jesus says, "except in the case of "selling off of sexual purity" in Matt19:9 in contrast to the word for "marital unfaithfulness" in the same verse which he would be guilty of if he divorces her for any reason other than the former if he takes another wife). With that in mind, levitical law provides for the wronged wife, hated for reasons other than sexual impurity. She is to be provided for, whether he likes her or not.
Also, I wonder if there isn't an underlying implication in that "granting" a wife a certificate of divorce might include an allowance for her request for it?

The_Watchers_2017 · Jun 13, 2023

Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate. – Mark 10:9

God would not had placed people together that desire to hurt one another.

When two people wait for God to bring them together, this is what will happen every time.

Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. – Ephesians 5:21-28

EternalFire · Jun 14, 2023

Tararose said:

You’re welcome.

Here’s my summation: “For those who are being led by the spirit of God, these are the sons of God” (Romans 8:14).

The second video has a nice map with time stamps in the description that you can use as a guide.

GRACE_ambassador · Jun 14, 2023

Tararose said:

Simply:

Rom_12:18 "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men."

+ If the above is "not possible," then God Has His:

GRACE Word For our infirmities!

Amen.

Nehemiah6 · Jun 14, 2023

Tararose said:

There are several Scriptures which suggest that Christians are to put up with mistreatment. Here is one passage: For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: (1 Peter 2:19-21).

Tararose · Jun 14, 2023

studentoftheword said:

Your reply took a lot of reading through and considering. Thanks for all the input.
You said:…we need to understand that the Scripture is speaking to Born Again Holy Spirit indwelled Married Christians …
And:…there is really no scripture about separating or divorcing because of abuse problems in a True Christian Marriage…

You used the following verse to show true believers wouldn’t be in an unequal marriage, so marital abuse isn’t a situation they would encounter and thus the bible doesn’t address it.
2 Cor 6 v 14 Do not be unequally bound together with unbelievers [do not make mismatched alliances with them, inconsistent with your faith]. For what partnership can righteousness have with lawlessness? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

But, this only tells Christians not to make an unequal marriage.
The following Scriptures instruct believers who are already in an unequal marriage.

1 Peter 3 v 1 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word…
1 Cor 7: 12… if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. 13 If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him.

So, scripture certainly covers real Christians in unequal marriages and expects them to live with unsaved spouses in such cases.

You also said :
Now as far as 1 Peter 2:20 goes and ! Peter 3:17 goes ---
I think you really need to research what the context is in these 2 scriptures as this is not talking abuse in a marriage ------this is speaking about how a True Christian should live in a Pagan world ------it is about being persecuted by people for doing good ------and how Jesus bore His sufferings for us and how He conducted Himself under unrighteous sufferings by unbelievers

You seem to suggest that a Christian wife being hurt by a non Christian doesn't qualify as a believer being persecuted for righteousness sake, if that non Christian happens to be her husband. I don't see that in any of the verses.

You seem to emphasis 'living among Pagans'. Pagan means: (especially in historical contexts) a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main or recognised religions. So, for Christians that means anyone of another belief or religion - ie unsaved people. So, that's all relevant to us today, and the other things you said this passage relates to, also don't negate the relevance, connection, or the instructions on how and why believers should allow themselves to suffer through submitting to authority, be that master, God, husband or whomsoever else the bible says.

Christ’s example is that of suffering in an act of submission to His authority, God, who made Him to suffer unjustly for other peoples sin.

(But we know in this case the authority figure was not a harsh or cruel one.)

Wives are told to submit, in like manner, even to unsaved husbands, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see the wives respectful and pure conduct.

If it said, in contrary manner, wives only submit to your husband if he is going to be nice to you are nice to you, I would see your point.

And slaves or servants are told to submit even to harsh masters, to be subject to them - and to do that with all respect, (though you didn’t have much to say about that part.)

Is suffering without reviling or complaining about unjust treatment not what Christs example shows in 1 Pt 2 v 23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly.

How is this instance of the example of Christs suffering to be understood as related to the slaves and the wives instruction, if it is not one of submission, through obedience to God, which results in suffering for other peoples sin, unjustly? And suffering without reviling, without defending yourself, but instead leaving the unjust to God to judge?

1 Peter 2 v 21 links the instructions to slaves submitting and suffering to Christs example
1 Peter 3 v1 links the wives submitting, in the same way, to that very same example.

The 3 subjects in the 1 Peter portion in question, are all connected by scripture.

You also say,
-----I think your taking scripture out of context and lumping them in with violence in a marriage and saying that it seems that God allows abuse in marriage -----and that is simply not the Case ----in my view ----

I gave a fairly decent portion of 1 Peter 2 and 3 to try to avoid that. The point I am making was there already, “lumped together" in the context. THE CONTEXT presented the connection. I didn’t create that! I didn't want or like it either when I saw it.

I also gave several other biblical instances albeit very briefly, just to show that suffering because of submitting to authority, out of obedience to God, is not a principle that solely hangs on a certain way of looking at 1 Peter.

Its good we are provoking one another to think these things over and challenge one another with our understanding of the word on the topic. Thank you for your response. I am looking forward to hearing what others have to say, but it isn’t an easy subject to discuss without things getting a bit intense at times.

Thank you for bearing with me and my long responses, I really do try and answer each point when people have taken the time to try and help me.

Tararose · Jun 14, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

Thank you,
I wrote a long post, so it is easy to not remember everything I said. The main passage I quoted was from 1 Peter 2 and 3, and included that verse, and so I was trying to find other parts of scripture, I guess from the New Testament mainly, that clarified or expounded on that very verse and the implications it seems to have on the verses to servants or slaves before, and women after, in 1 Peter 3 v 1. I dont feel that the point of these scriptures was specifically for just these groups of people, but it does certainly seem to include them before and after, and connect them to Christs example of suffering.

Do you have any other parts of scripture that spring to mind on this subject?

Bruce_Leiter · Jun 14, 2023

Tararose said:

Please do not read on or join in if you are suffering because of abuse, or past abuse.
I do not want to cause anyone any upset or pain, and I don't want this to turn into a counselling or comfort thread, as vital as counsel and comfort are to anyone suffering in any way.

I am hoping commenters will avoid giving opinions and personal testimonies, and so on, and that we can just engage in a thorough examination of the scriptures on the subject, all and any of which may be triggering. There are other recent threads where this sort of thing is being discussed and they would really be a better place for anyone emotionally involved in the topic.

okay... so I was thinking about this topic as I read through the recent thread about Bad Marriages and God joining Couples together.
I didn't want to hijack the thread so decided to start a new one, that would just examine the scriptures on this topic of suffering abuse, and nothing else.

Asking the scholars among us to help, so hopefully wont end up with lots of angry critics...

At the risk of being taken the wrong way, I was wondering recently, why I and many other Christians, who would say we source our advice from Scripture, advocate abuse as a reason for divorce. I have myself often said a woman or a man being beaten by a spouse should certainly separate, though if I am being honest I could find no scripture to back that up. I thought it was plain commonsense and compassion I guess. I can find things that say God hates the innocent suffering, He hates men hurting their wives, sure, but nothing that says anyone is actually free to leave such a situation. I know also that men are instructed to love their wives etc. But, that isn't the point God seems to be addressing here, He obviously isn't justifying bad behaviour, abuse or mistreatment of others in these texts, but he doesn't seem to offer any way out for those who suffer it either.

I just want to make it clear that I am not saying I believe people should stay in abusive situation. I am not even saying God believes that.
My heart breaks for those who experience the horror of being trapped in abusive situations of any kind, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But, I recently quoted a passage of scripture elsewhere, to show that a woman should not leave her husband (generally speaking) and vice versa. I looked at it again and suddenly realised it started with LIKEWISE, WIVES.... so I went back and read the proceeding portion of scripture to see what came before it.

The portion I read was as follows, I have underlined the portions that concerned me, and which all appear to be very much connected.
1 Peter 2

18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. 19 For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. 20 For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God. 21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. 22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. 23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. 24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
(Continues straight into chapter 3)
Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they see your respectful and pure conduct. 3 Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— 4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. 5 For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

Slaves and women here appear to be under the same instruction, which is to adhere to the same example as Christ, who willingly and unjustly suffered as our example.

It is also clear that the other example given for women is that of a woman who called her husband Lord, meaning master, and who did so without fear of what could be called frightening - perhaps alluding to the possible repercussions of having an unconditional attitude of submission to someone in authority over you, such as those that slaves with wicked masters suffered, and that christ suffered at the hands of his torturers. They have to submit to even those who do not obey the word, which would include the instructions to love their wives and treat them well etc.

I was also reminded of God's response to Hagar running away from severe mistreatment, and being made to return and to submit.

Gen 16
6...Sarai treated Hagar so harshly that she fled from her.
7Now the angel of the LORD found Hagar by a spring of water in the desert—the spring along the road to Shur.
8“Hagar, servant of Sarai,” he said, “where have you come from, and where are you going?”
“I am running away from my mistress Sarai,” she replied.
9So the angel of the LORD told her, “Return to your mistress and submit to her authority.”

Yes, he does go on to tell her that her lineage will be blessed, but that would still be at the cost of going back to be mistreated, probably even enduring beatings and the like. There is no suggestion that Sarah laid off her mistreatment of Hagar at that point, treatment so severe a woman was willing to take her son and ran way into the wilderness.

I also think about Job, whom God permitted to be mistreated of by the devil, to the point of despairing of his own life. Yes blessing came after, but what a cost he paid, and what pain he was allowed to endure before hand.

1 Peter 2 and 3 seem to indicate the same is expected of slaves and women, with the assurance of being blessed if they submit and suffer unjustly as a result of that submitting, just as Christ did. I know that it sounds very unreasonable to us, but I am have not found any loop-holes to get me out of what these verses seems to be saying.

So there you go, that is my dilemma at the moment in understanding this whole issue biblically, so that I can aline my understanding with all of the word of God, and not my human reasoning, or mere humanistic instincts.

PLEASE do not criticise and condemn me for it seeming to say the opposite of what I would like it to say. That is totally pointless. I am asking to be biblically educated about this, by those who know more than I do and can show me from scripture, where I may have missed something and misunderstood these texts.

I am not certainly not happy about seeing the connection and I seriously hope to be corrected scripturally, with kindness and gentleness, as instructed in 2 Timothy 2. (I think that is in my signature if you want the exact quote.)

I know I am risking being mis-judged, but I am doing this in hopes someone can direct me to other unambiguous, clear scriptures relating to this topic, that I am struggling to find, that would explain, or even hopefully somehow nullify, this seeming instruction to not only allow yourself to be beaten and mistreated, but to go so far as to honour or show respect to those who are inflicting it on you.

Thanks in advance.

I think that the Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," says separation to protect yourself is acceptable. God says we must love ourselves to avoid letting the spouse destroy our emotional and physical health. That verse also gives us the need to always be praying for the abusing spouse and for future reconciliation after he seeks therapy or counseling.

Nehemiah6 · Jun 14, 2023

Tararose said:

But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; (1 Peter 3:!4) These Scriptures are not necessarily about abuse in marriages. They are more related to Christian testimony and suffering as a Christian. when opposed by the enemies of Christ and Christians. Christians were being persecuted at that time, and even today in many parts of the world. Furthermore there are other remedies for marital issues, not least of which is for the victims to go to the elders within their church and try and get matters resolved.

NOV25 · Jun 14, 2023

The provision and guideline for divorce and remarriage is outlined in Deuteronomy 24:1-4.

When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.
3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Deuteronomy (all of it) is the inspired word of God in which divorce and remarriage is permitted. Jesus did not void his own word, neither did any of the NT writers.

Unfortunately, most folks derive their doctrine from a false understanding of Jesus' words in Matthew 5/19, Mark 10 and Luke 16, even more unfortunate is the fact that most English translations get it wrong here.

Example: Luke 16:17-18 ESV
17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.
18 “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and hew who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery. According to the ESV, Jesus clearly voids his word in Deuteronomy 24, immediately after stating it's easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the law (his word) to become void. Whenever we find things like this we can be sure there's a gem to be discovered upon further examination. Remember, God's word is perfect but all English translations are flawed.

Although Jesus's words in the above mentioned chapters seems like a reasonable place to start, if done so improperly the result will be chaotic, hence the wide variety of differing doctrine. If you want to know the reasons for divorce start in Deuteronomy with ervah/uncleanness. Many examples are given in Leviticus, which include but are not limited to, fornication.

Relationships are messy among fallen humankind, we the hard hearted. If God were to list all reasons for divorce and remarriage we would likely need another 66 books. However, to those whose hearts he's softening there is more than enough information given, it's common sense.

* Trigger Warning* Biblical clarification re: suffering abuse

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