A reasonable question

[Aaron56]

does this prove satan was fallen at the time he was brought befor the lord in a heavenly court ?

Not forgetting his name of Satan was referred to as Lucifer or in one or two reference a cherub in heaven after Job 1.
he needed permission of God to test children of God whom God had a protective hedge over.

The way I understand Adam and Eve, is they also had a protective hedge over them. Which I never chose to relate that to Job 1, scripture has.

The hedge over Adam and Eve was positional: if they maintained their position then no one and nothing could impede their lives.

Satan's deception was not the reason for the fall. It was Adam's and Eve's ratification of the deception. The authority lied within them to agree with or disagree with Satan. Satan just deceived, as is his nature to do.

The angels cannot deceive unless they are fallen: they are ministering spirit. This means they have no personal origin of being: they administrate from a source. God was not deceiving Adam and Eve. Satan was already overcome by the nature of his rebellion and was the personification of lies and deception by the time he encountered Adam and woman in the garden.

 

[Aaron56]

Yes, Satan was fallen at that point. It says he was a murderer from the beginning, so he has been fallen since the beginning.

And certainly, this means "from the beginning of time".

 

[LeeLoving]

another thing that concerns me, and no disrespect to you.
But which beginning is this refering to ?

As scripture indicates Satan was a cherub in heaven at first.

I think it's referring to -the beginning- like the beginning of creation.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

ahab was the husband of Jezabel a king who has openly invited both Good and bad profits into his life.

So I'm assuming that the lies where actually the truth.

I mean the false profits where only telling lies.

So when the angels of the lord decieved them they started to speak truth but to them that was a lie.

Only they never realised that until ahab was killed.

So there understanding is truth is a lie. And if they speak truth they speak a lie.

Only they where decieved into speaking a truth. Which was considered a lie by them.

So this is what the angel ment when the angel said I will make them speak a lie.

I actually like this view but what was intended by my post was to capture this:
וַיֹּ֕אמֶר לָכֵ֖ן שְׁמַ֣ע דְּבַר־יְהֹוָ֑ה רָאִ֤יתִי אֶת־יְהֹוָה֙ יֹשֵׁ֣ב עַל־כִּסְא֔וֹ וְכׇל־צְבָ֤א הַשָּׁמַ֙יִם֙ עֹמֵ֣ד עָלָ֔יו מִֽימִינ֖וֹ וּמִשְּׂמֹאלֽוֹ׃
But [Micaiah] said, “I call upon you to hear the word of GOD ! I saw GOD seated upon a throne, with all the host of heaven standing in attendance to the right and to the left.

with all the host of heaven, this matches Job, Chronicles, and many other materials, even including works like Enoch.

 

[Fundaamental]

I actually like this view but what was intended by my post was to capture this:
וַיֹּ֕אמֶר לָכֵ֖ן שְׁמַ֣ע דְּבַר־יְהֹוָ֑ה רָאִ֤יתִי אֶת־יְהֹוָה֙ יֹשֵׁ֣ב עַל־כִּסְא֔וֹ וְכׇל־צְבָ֤א הַשָּׁמַ֙יִם֙ עֹמֵ֣ד עָלָ֔יו מִֽימִינ֖וֹ וּמִשְּׂמֹאלֽוֹ׃
But [Micaiah] said, “I call upon you to hear the word of GOD ! I saw GOD seated upon a throne, with all the host of heaven standing in attendance to the right and to the left.

with all the host of heaven, this matches Job, Chronicles, and many other materials, even including works like Enoch.

I don't dispute this but does all the hosts of heavens include the angels who where cast out, or are you refering to something else

 

[Fundaamental]

I think it's referring to -the beginning- like the beginning of creation.

can't see it being the same beginning as Jesus, the bible makes no clear reference when the angels where created, but the bible does make reference that they where created.

It makes reference they where created to serve as ministers for God's children.

So perhaps they where created befor day 6 of genesis.
But possibly before day 1.


Two points of reference here,

1 they where created meaning they have not existed for ever.

The beginning Jesus refers to is all of time, which is what Jesus has always been.

His beginning has no starting point.

Something that is created has a staring point.

Since angels where created to server Gods people then Satan must have also been created this way at first.

His beginning was not one of a liar in this creation.
God never created liars.

His beginning of being a liar refers to something else. At some point of early bible he became a liar is what I see from scripture.

But no clear indication exactly when that was.

 

[Fundaamental]

Plus the beginning is referred to as a staring point also. And referenced as diifrent understanding when Jesus spoke about the begining in other passages refering to him self.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I don't dispute this but does all the hosts of heavens include the angels who where cast out, or are you refering to something else

Jesus said, He saw Satan fall like it was lightning.
This is Past Tense, but also, when Earth existed because Satan crashes into Earth.
And then we see throughout the History of the Hebrew People, we see different times where the entire Host is gathered.
And we see Satan there.
And even today, Jesus is our Mediator because we are being ACCUSED, by Satan

So, the Only Angels not in these Gatherings are these:
6 Remember the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abandoned their own dwelling place: they are bound with eternal chains in the darkness below, where God is keeping them for that great Day on which they will be condemned.
7 Remember Sodom and Gomorrah, and the nearby towns, whose people acted as those angels did and indulged in sexual immorality and perversion: they suffer the punishment of eternal fire as a plain warning to all.

Only a select few Angels indulged in sexual immorality and perversion:

But even the bad Angels of Psalms 82 are still loose.
Demons are also loose.

 

[Fundaamental]

Jesus said, He saw Satan fall like it was lightning.
This is Past Tense, but also, when Earth existed because Satan crashes into Earth.
And then we see throughout the History of the Hebrew People, we see different times where the entire Host is gathered.
And we see Satan there.
And even today, Jesus is our Mediator because we are being ACCUSED, by Satan

So, the Only Angels not in these Gatherings are these:
6 Remember the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abandoned their own dwelling place: they are bound with eternal chains in the darkness below, where God is keeping them for that great Day on which they will be condemned.
7 Remember Sodom and Gomorrah, and the nearby towns, whose people acted as those angels did and indulged in sexual immorality and perversion: they suffer the punishment of eternal fire as a plain warning to all.

Only a select few Angels indulged in sexual immorality and perversion:

But even the bad Angels of Psalms 82 are still loose.
Demons are also loose.

the first indication of Satan being on earth as a liar is Adam and Eve.

Jesus sayin he saw Satan fall from heaven would have to be that starting point, if at all that was Satan in the Garden of eden.

If you believe Satan had fallen befor Job as a liar.

There would have to be permission for Satan to have tested Adam and Eve.

But as we see God condemned the serpent for misleading Adam and Eve

Which means no permission was granted to a demon in the garden.

Why well adam and Eve where under a protective hedge and Satan needed permission to test such people as in Job.

Satan is not described as a serpent in every account.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

the first indication of Satan being on earth as a liar is Adam and Eve.

Jesus sayin he saw Satan fall from heaven would have to be that starting point, if at all that was Satan in the Garden of eden.

If you believe Satan had fallen befor Job as a liar.

There would have to be permission for Satan to have tested Adam and Eve.

But as we see God condemned the serpent for misleading Adam and Eve

Which means no permission was granted to a demon in the garden.

Why well adam and Eve where under a protective hedge and Satan needed permission to test such people as in Job.

Satan is not described as a serpent in every account.

We know Satan made himself equal to God and fell.
Satan was already in a Fallen State
Then he deceived Eve.
Adam and Eve were not in fallen state, like Job was, and had a Hedge surrounding him.
You aren't even putting what we know for absolutes to use here.

 

[Fundaamental]

We know Satan made himself equal to God and fell.
Satan was already in a Fallen State
Then he deceived Eve.
Adam and Eve were not in fallen state, like Job was, and had a Hedge surrounding him.
You aren't even putting what we know for absolutes to use here.

I can't see the absolutes here.

A protective hedge is for God children.

Job was Gods so was adam and Eve.

Which fallen state was Adam and Eve in befor the test ?


And surely job inherited Adam and eves sin nature to ?.

 

[LeeLoving]

If I recall correctly it was Satan who said there was a hedge around Job. This may or may not have been true. I think there is a verse in the Bible that says there is no truth in Satan, if that was the case during the time of Job when Satan said what he said then there was in fact no hedge around Job, unless I'm wrong somehow.

 

[LeeLoving]

If I recall correctly it was Satan who said there was a hedge around Job. This may or may not have been true. I think there is a verse in the Bible that says there is no truth in Satan, if that was the case during the time of Job when Satan said what he said then there was in fact no hedge around Job, unless I'm wrong somehow.

It was the verse I just posted. Oops.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

If I recall correctly it was Satan who said there was a hedge around Job. This may or may not have been true. I think there is a verse in the Bible that says there is no truth in Satan, if that was the case during the time of Job when Satan said what he said then there was in fact no hedge around Job, unless I'm wrong somehow.

Did not God ask Satan, do you know Job?
Job, said yes + the Hedge around Job
Satan had already tested to see if he could attack Job.
had there been no Hedge, Satan, would have attacked.
But sense he did not and needed permission to, it's safe to believe, a Hedge did exist.
And in the presence of God, in this picture, God on His Throne, Satan, ain't lying, because he knows God already knows.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I can't see the absolutes here.

A protective hedge is for God children.

Job was Gods so was adam and Eve.

Which fallen state was Adam and Eve in befor the test ?


And surely job inherited Adam and eves sin nature to ?.

you missed the point. all good.

 

[LeeLoving]

Did not God ask Satan, do you know Job?
Job, said yes + the Hedge around Job
Satan had already tested to see if he could attack Job.
had there been no Hedge, Satan, would have attacked.
But sense he did not and needed permission to, it's safe to believe, a Hedge did exist.
And in the presence of God, in this picture, God on His Throne, Satan, ain't lying, because he knows God already knows.

Well that verse says there's no truth in Satan, so unless I'm wrong somehow, he always lies. Whether that was true of Satan when the events of Job happened I don't know though.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Well that verse says there is no truth in Satan, so it might be that he always lies.

Before God nothing can lie.

my bad! it just seems so obvious here because its impossible to lie to God when you are Face to Face.

Even in Secret, God knows.

 

[Fundaamental]

It was the verse I just posted. Oops.

the bible makes reference that angels where created to be ministers for God's children.

There must have been truth in satan at first.

Theres also reference satan was a guardian cherub of knowledge.

And the way in which that verse was defined in was the knowledge he was a guardian cherub of was the heavenly knowledge.

 

[Fundaamental]

you missed the point. all good.

Ezekiel
who's this speaking of

“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.[b]
Your settings and mountings[c] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub

 

[Dino246]

why such the discrepancy on a choice of words.

The scripture says Satan was called before the lord in a heavenly court.
How is that not being invited ?.

The Scripture says the accuser came; it says nothing about him being invited. You're using the wrong word, and by doing so, injecting a mess of confusion into the passage.

Also satan used Gods power and rained down fire from heaven at his disposal. so how is that Satans power.

Again, that is not what the Scripture says. It says that one of Job's servants said "The fire of God fell from heaven...". Scripture records what the servant said; it does not tell us that his statement was accurate.

Where in scripture does it say the power satan had to destroy what Job had was his own power ?

Asked already, and answered in post #4.

So despite are indifference in a choice of words.

The words are "our", not "are", and "difference" (variation, disagreement), not "indifference" (uncaring attitude, dispassionate approach).

Was Satan fallen at the point of time he was brought befor the lord.

'Satan' wasn't brought before the Lord. He came. Again, use the right words so you don't sow confusion.