Does Romans 6:3-4 teach water baptism?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#41
...Outside of Acts 2 & 10, we only see the HS‘s gifts passed on by means of the apostles hands Acts 8:18.

so HS baptism wasnt universal,...
You are mistaken. Both accounts in Acts 8, and 19 reference the people receiving the actual Holy Ghost.

Peter and John were sent to the Samaritans: "Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given..." Acts 8:15-16, 18



In the acts 19 account, the 12 Ephesians were indwelt by the Holy Ghost just as Cornelius and others were in the Acts 10 account:

The Ephesians:
"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." Acts 19:6

The Gentiles:
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word." Acts 10:44

In the acts 19 account the 12 were indwelt by the Holy Ghost. As were Cornelius and others in the Acts 10 account when it is stated the Holy Ghost fell on them. This is confirmed by the Gentile experience of being indwelt being referenced as the Holyccount same words, "fell on all them"
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#42
In regards to Romans 6:3-4, as Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Galatians 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forward to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/romans-6.html

Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that faith (not baptism) is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification. (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1) That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification." (Romans 4:24,25)

Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification) and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by faith, not baptism. *Hermeneutics. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.
"And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt. 22:11-13
 
Jun 20, 2022
6,460
1,330
113
#43
"It would be incorrect to ascribe the baptism of Romans 6:3-4 to the water baptism of
John the Baptist, Jesus, or Peter at Pentecost.
Let's use the Ancient Greek here: Paul, is describing basically Peter's Act's 2:38

3 Or do you not know that all of us who were immersed into Christ Jesus were immersed into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried together with Him through immersion into death—in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.


So, the real question here, what does Immersed/Immersion mean, in the Greek?
βουτώβυθίζω, which means: sink, go under.

The descriptions of baptisms in the New Testament suggest that people went down into the water to be immersed rather than having water brought to them in a container to be poured or sprinkled (Matthew 3:6)
 

DJT_47

Well-known member
Oct 20, 2022
1,064
188
63
#44
100% refers to water baptism as does all baptism scripture unless otherwise stated within its unique context
 

Seddrik

New member
May 29, 2023
28
3
3
#45
You are mistaken. Both accounts in Acts 8, and 19 reference the people receiving the actual Holy Ghost.

Peter and John were sent to the Samaritans: "Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given..." Acts 8:15-16, 18



In the acts 19 account, the 12 Ephesians were indwelt by the Holy Ghost just as Cornelius and others were in the Acts 10 account:

The Ephesians:
"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." Acts 19:6

The Gentiles:
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word." Acts 10:44

In the acts 19 account the 12 were indwelt by the Holy Ghost. As were Cornelius and others in the Acts 10 account when it is stated the Holy Ghost fell on them. This is confirmed by the Gentile experience of being indwelt being referenced as the Holyccount same words, "fell on all them"
The Spirit interacted miraculously in two ways.
directly from Heaven Acts 2 and acts 10 (Holy Spirit Baptism)
and being passed on in a limited fashion by the hands to the apostles Acts 8

miracles have ended, either way 1Cor13:8-14
apostles have written by inspiration eph3:3-4 and passed on, their fruit remains Jn15:16
These direct from heaven events were unique, as Peter explains in Acts 11:15 He likens Acts 10 ”even as on us at the beginning”, to the singular event in Acts 2. He does not compare it to what happens to all believers since acts 2.

acts 2 proved Jesus was enthroned and salvation available to Jews
Acts2:16, 33,38

acts 10 proved the same salvation is a ailable to Gentiles
acts 10:47-48; 11:14, 17-18

“indwelling“ of the Spirit isnt miraculous, but revelatory. Via the word.

Romans 8 expressly says the Spirit gave a “law“ of life in Christ.
those who accept it obtain “the mind of the Spirit”. I,e. We learn to think as the Spirit directs through His law.
in this way the Spirit lives in a true Christian

thus, the Spirit of God dwells in such a person Rom8:9,11
such a person is “led by the Spirit of God” 8:14
etc.

through the revealed message, the law pf the Spirit of life… 8:1


by way of contrast, Paul asks rhetorical questions in 1Cor12:29-30
are all prophets? Are all teachers? do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

the obvious answer is “No”
not everyone had miraculous gifts even in the first century, and even those who had a gift did didnt have all the gifts.

The apostles were uniquely chosen as messengers. Only by their hands could others receive some gift In a measured or limited way.

Christ only gave the apostles all the gifts and the ability to pass on miracles to those they lay hands on.

all said, the work of the Spirit was to reveal all truth John16:13
this has been done and written 2 Tim3:16-17
this work makes a man of God complete in every way God intends
And we are warned not to think beyond what is written 1Cor4:6


besides, there is only one baptism today
eph 4:4
water by faith
eph 5:26-27
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#46
The Spirit interacted miraculously in two ways.
directly from Heaven Acts 2 and acts 10 (Holy Spirit Baptism)
and being passed on in a limited fashion by the hands to the apostles Acts 8

miracles have ended, either way 1Cor13:8-14
apostles have written by inspiration eph3:3-4 and passed on, their fruit remains Jn15:16
These direct from heaven events were unique, as Peter explains in Acts 11:15 He likens Acts 10 ”even as on us at the beginning”, to the singular event in Acts 2. He does not compare it to what happens to all believers since acts 2.

acts 2 proved Jesus was enthroned and salvation available to Jews
Acts2:16, 33,38

acts 10 proved the same salvation is a ailable to Gentiles
acts 10:47-48; 11:14, 17-18

“indwelling“ of the Spirit isnt miraculous, but revelatory. Via the word.

Romans 8 expressly says the Spirit gave a “law“ of life in Christ.
those who accept it obtain “the mind of the Spirit”. I,e. We learn to think as the Spirit directs through His law.
in this way the Spirit lives in a true Christian

thus, the Spirit of God dwells in such a person Rom8:9,11
such a person is “led by the Spirit of God” 8:14
etc.

through the revealed message, the law pf the Spirit of life… 8:1


by way of contrast, Paul asks rhetorical questions in 1Cor12:29-30
are all prophets? Are all teachers? do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

the obvious answer is “No”
not everyone had miraculous gifts even in the first century, and even those who had a gift did didnt have all the gifts.

The apostles were uniquely chosen as messengers. Only by their hands could others receive some gift In a measured or limited way.

Christ only gave the apostles all the gifts and the ability to pass on miracles to those they lay hands on.

all said, the work of the Spirit was to reveal all truth John16:13
this has been done and written 2 Tim3:16-17
this work makes a man of God complete in every way God intends
And we are warned not to think beyond what is written 1Cor4:6


besides, there is only one baptism today
eph 4:4
water by faith
eph 5:26-27
As I said you are mistaken. The Acts 8 and 19 accounts state the individuals received the actual indwelling of the Holy Ghost and was evidenced by their speaking in tongues.
Speaking in tongues upon receiving the Holy Ghost is consistent in scripture. Those who speak in an unknown tongue are communicating with God. (1 Cor. 14:2) Whereas Paul's comment about not all speaking in tongues is relative to the spiritual gift of tongues that requires interpretation via someone equipped with that gift. (1 Cor. 12:30)

Spiritual gifts continue to be distributed by the Holy Spirit dwelling in those who have been born again. It is the indwelling Spirit that causes particular gifts to flow from an individual to assist in drawing others to become part of the body. This will continue until the last person is added to the body of Christ. The Holy Spirit has not ceased to teach humanity. (John 14:26)

For to one is given BY THE SPIRIT the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge BY THE SAME SPIRIT;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:

25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
3,215
1,614
113
Midwest
#47
And we are warned not to think beyond what is written 1Cor4:6

besides, there is only one baptism today
eph 4:4
water by faith
eph 5:26-27
Thanks - good exhortation about The Written Word! Did you mean this is
The ONE Baptism for today?:

For 'BY' ONE Spirit are we all Baptized Into ONE Body, whether
we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; And Have
Been ALL Made To Drink Into ONE Spirit!"
(1 Corinthians 12:13)

Amen.
 

Seddrik

New member
May 29, 2023
28
3
3
#48
As I said you are mistaken. The Acts 8 and 19 accounts state the individuals received the actual indwelling of the Holy Ghost and was evidenced by their speaking in tongues.
Speaking in tongues upon receiving the Holy Ghost is consistent in scripture. Those who speak in an unknown tongue are communicating with God. (1 Cor. 14:2) Whereas Paul's comment about not all speaking in tongues is relative to the spiritual gift of tongues that requires interpretation via someone equipped with that gift. (1 Cor. 12:30)

Spiritual gifts continue to be distributed by the Holy Spirit dwelling in those who have been born again. It is the indwelling Spirit that causes particular gifts to flow from an individual to assist in drawing others to become part of the body. This will continue until the last person is added to the body of Christ. The Holy Spirit has not ceased to teach humanity. (John 14:26)
.
” Acts 8 and 19 accounts state the individuals received the actual indwelling of the Holy Ghost and was evidenced by their speaking in tongues.”

The Spirit Himself says that indwelling is accomplished through the word Rom 8:2,11

Acts 8 shows that gifts from the Spirit were limited to being passed on by the hands of the apostles Acts8:18
There are no living apostles today.
Paul was the last witness, last qualified person to be an apostle 1Cor15:8

Acts2:38 says the gift of the Spirit was given. The Spirit was the giver. The gift was revealed truth, the message & promises of God. Just like Acts 8:35 Philip preached Jesus, which resulted in… preaching water baptism as necessary Acts 8:36-38.

Let me ask, in Acts 10 what tongues did Cornelius and his house speak? What is speaking in tongues?
And what did Peter and the Jews say it proved? Hint, its not what you asserted.
what did the Spirit say the purpose of it was for?
when u find the answer in the Bible, you will see why direct outpouring of the Spirit was not an ongoing event and was for a specific purpose.

In Acts 19, notice those who know only the promise of the coming Christ, were taught and baptized Acts19:5, then Acts19:6 Paul lay his hands on them to give them gifts of the Spirit. Baptism was not Holy Spirit baptism here.


“Speaking in tongues upon receiving the Holy Ghost is consistent in scripture.“
Incorrect. Not all spoke in tongues, Paul said so 1COR12:30
Some had no miraculous gifts at all Rom1:11
Gifts differed even on those who had one 1Cor12:4


“Those who speak in an unknown tongue are communicating with God. (1 Cor. 14:2) Whereas Paul's comment about not all speaking in tongues is relative to the spiritual gift of tongues that requires interpretation via someone equipped with that gift. (1 Cor. 12:30)”

unknown… is used commonly today to justify uttering syllables and not a real language.
tongues were always a real language on earth. acts 2:8, 10:46, etc
thatbthey could be interpreted for those who didnt know the particular language… shows that it was an intelligible language 1Cor12
”unknown” was addressing the abuse of that gift in an assembly. If a person spoke Russian to people in Spain, Russian would be an unknown tongue, The speaker would be viewed as strange1Cor14:23, and he would need an interpreter in order to benefit anyone 14:3-4
Paul commanded interpreters for tongue speakers 14:26-27
no interpreter? Paul said sit down and be quiet.
Paul said God is not the author of confusion 14:33


“Spiritual gifts continue to be distributed by the Holy Spirit dwelling in those who have been born again.”
1Cor13;8-13 TheSpirit said Himself they have stopped.
dwelling is not the same as miraculous gifts. Dwelling is having the word in you. Rom8:2,11
Just as Christ dwells in me through faith, the word Ep3:17; Rom10:17
Just as the Father dwells in me 2Cor6:16
indwelling is not location, but relationship.

born again involves water baptism & faith Jn3:5
water is obvious
Spirit, revealed truth Jn16:13, which produces faith rom10:17
Just as Jesus said Mk16:16
Just as Paul said Eph5:26
just as Peter said 1Pet1:22-23, 3:21
being born again is not a miraculous tongue speaking event, though it is a spiritual event.


“It is the indwelling Spirit that causes particular gifts to flow from an individual to assist in drawing others to become part of the body.“
The Spirit said prophecies and tongues would end when the perfected revelation was accomplished 1Cor13:8-13
It has been accomplished 2Tim3:16-17, Jude3
therefore tongues have ended.

“This will continue until the last person is added to the body of Christ. The Holy Spirit has not ceased to teach humanity. (John 14:26)”

John14 was specifically to the apostles, from John13 to 17, it was the passover preparation with the twelve.
compare Mt26:29; Mk14:17; Lk22:14
Jesus’ promise was to these chosen men, chosen apostles Acts1:2

Paul was the last witness, last qualified 1Cor15:8

Their fruit (the revealed message) abides John15:16
It is living and active Heb 4:12
makes complete 2Tim3:16-17
to look beyond it, is to look beyond God’s power Rom1:16-17
 
May 19, 2023
86
12
8
#49
"It would be incorrect to ascribe the baptism of Romans 6:3-4 to the water baptism of
John the Baptist, Jesus, or Peter at Pentecost. You will search in vain to find any mention
of water even in the entire book of Romans! Furthermore, the verse clearly says that we
are baptized into Christ, not the river Jordan, or into any other water. There is a significant
difference between being baptized into water and being baptized into Christ
( See ‘What is Baptism’ for a definition ).

Strangely, many continue to use Romans 6:3-4 to justify water baptism in this
dispensation. They are quick to point out the symbolism of going under water
to a burial, and coming up out of the water to resurrection. Yet, Paul never makes
that symbolic connection having never mentioned water baptism, and so the verse
must be forced to say what it never has.

John’s Water Baptism and the Cross

When John the Baptist came baptizing, scripture clearly states the method and function
of his baptism.

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.” – Mark 1:4-5

It is clear that John is the baptizer. It is also clear that the function of his baptism was
‘for the remission of sins’. Lastly, it is clear that John baptized with water, specifically,
‘in the river Jordan’.

What must be pointed out is that while John the Baptist came preaching repentance
and baptism for the remission of sins, he never preaches the cross of Christ, his death,
or resurrection. In fact, even Jesus’ disciples who were most likely baptized by John with
water and themselves performed water baptisms were ignorant of the cross and
resurrection years after their own baptisms!

“And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again….And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. ” – Luke 18:33-34

The only thing that is certain is that water baptism was preached of repentance
for the remission of sins.

Water baptism could hardly have been performed as a symbol of the death and
resurrection of Christ, if the death and resurrection was not understood by those
who were baptized or by the very baptizers.

Peter’s Water Baptism and the Cross

In Matthew 28:19-20 we see the resurrected Lord Jesus commanding the disciples to
‘Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and
of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever
I have commanded you’.

In response Peter at Pentecost offered the crucifixion of Jesus as a testimony to the
wickedness of rebellious Israel’s need for repentance. The Jews then present ‘were
pricked in their heart’ (Acts 2:36-37).

Peter’s response was that they should ‘Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the
name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.’ This message of repentance and baptism
for the remission of sins was the same that John the Baptist taught. The fact that this
baptism was into water is evident from Acts 8:36 and Acts 10:47.

Yet, it is instructive to see that Peter was not preaching the death and resurrection of
Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, but water baptism for the remission of sins, just
as John the Baptist.

Paul’s Water Baptism and the Cross

It is not uncommon for adherents to John’s water baptism to point to the water
baptizing done by Paul in Acts 18:8 and 1 Cor 1:14. However, notice what Paul says
about his water baptizing and the cross.

“For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. ” – 1 Cor 1:17

Paul was not sent to baptize. Yet we read earlier in Matthew 28 :19 that the Lord Jesus
sent all his disciples to water baptize. Furthermore, Paul separates the gospel from
water baptism saying ‘but to preach the gospel’.

If the gospel preached of John the Baptist and Peter at Pentecost included baptism
for the remission of sins, then how could Paul exclude baptism from his gospel
presentation?

The answer lies in the revelation given to Paul after Pentecost where Christ sent Paul
with a separate commission.

“But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.” – Gal 1:11-12

Jesus appeared many times to Paul with further instructions for this current dispensation
(Acts 26:16, Eph 3:1-2). One of which was that he should cease water baptizing for it would
make the cross of Christ of none effect to those who were water baptized. The implication
is that since Christ did all of the work necessary for our salvation on the cross, some believers who were holding their water baptism in higher regard than their trust in
the cross of the Savior.

Paul then makes a clear separation between water baptism and the cross of Christ,
water baptism and the gospel.

Romans 6:3-4 not a symbol

The absence of the gospel of the cross in John’s water baptism, and Peter’s water baptism,
as well as the separation of water baptism from the gospel of Christ and the cross by Paul
is ample evidence that water baptism was not intended to be a symbol of the gospel.

Instead, Paul means exactly what he writes in Romans 6:3-4 that we are baptized into
the personage of Christ and as a result are crucified with Christ (Gal 2:20). This Baptism
into Christ is performed by the Spirit.

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” – 1 Cor 12:13

This baptism done by the ‘operation of God’ (Col 2:12) into Christ himself places us in
position to be not only take part in his death but also his resurrection, which is the
exact teaching of Romans 6:3-4.

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” – Romans 6:3-4

Notice the baptism leads to death, which is a far cry from the function of water baptism.
The only baptism that can lead to death is the baptism into Christ by the Spirit by which
we are crucified with Christ.

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” – Gal 2:20

The baptism of Romans 6:3-4 is our baptism by the Spirit into Christ not the baptism by
John or Peter into water."

(J Johnson)

Amen.

View attachment 251751

Examples:

Rightly Divided (+ I and II)
What baptism did Paul teach in Romans 6?
into Christ, into His death, buried with Him, unto newness of life (pardon, forgiveness)

Paul said there is one baptism Eph4:4
Pauls said that baltism/immersion is in water Eph5:25-27
based on Christs sacrifice, its when a person is cleansed/sanctified (pardoned), and made a part of His body, the unblemished church

There is no other NT command that involves water and pardon by faith.


while many today have been raised on the idea that immersion is a “work of merit”,
Col2:12 says the baptism is “by faith in the working of God”

therefore, when a person is scripturally baptized (i.e. believing in Jesus, immersed to be saved Mark 16:16) it is faith in what God provides, not a declaration of self accomplishment.
 
May 19, 2023
86
12
8
#50
Thanks - good exhortation about The Written Word! Did you mean this is
The ONE Baptism for today?:

For 'BY' ONE Spirit are we all Baptized Into ONE Body, whether
we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; And Have
Been ALL Made To Drink Into ONE Spirit!"
(1 Corinthians 12:13)

Amen.
Grace, I read your thoughts concerning water baptism. I have been involved in leading people to Christ for the past 53 years. When they ask, "What must I do to be saved? I simply tell them to read the nine conversion stories in the book of Acts. ALWAYS, in the past 53 years, in every instance, they always have said, "When can I be baptized".

It is interesting, isn't it, how people can read the scriptures for themselves and come to the conclusion that they need to be immersed into Christ. Even the Queen's Treasurer understood and told Philip, 'Look, here is water, what prevents me from being baptized?"

In Matthew 28:19-20, Jesus said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit," Men baptize people in water and it is God who baptizes people in the Holy Spirit.

So Philip taught the Queen's Treasurer about being baptized in water and Philip did just that.

It is interesting how those who do not believe you need to be baptized in water for the forgiveness of their sins, always take them to scriptures that do not talk about baptism. Those who are coming to Christ do not know anything about the Bible and believe anything that is told them, even when it was false. How do I know? I was one of them.

Here is what happened to me. I will leave this in the next post as it is too long to do here.

Wayne Cobb
 
May 19, 2023
86
12
8
#51
CONTINUATION OF PREVIOUS POST: When I was 26 years old, I did not believe in God. The janitor of the building where I worked had become a good friend of mine and one day he asked me if I would like to come to his home for a Bible study. I liked him and didn’t want to disappoint him. So I went. After I arrived at his home, the visiting preacher gave me a Bible to use that evening. I opened it up and kind of thumbed through a number of pages. I was completely blown away by all the numbers before the verses and all the cross references down the center of each page. At this time I did not like to read and spent my time watching TV and going to movies. So, after looking at the Bible a bit, I told the preacher and I quote myself here, “Who could ever learn anything out of a book like this?”

He did not get offended and we did study the Bible that evening. I liked what I heard and kept coming each week for about three months. It was getting towards Christmas and he said that he would not be coming down again until spring because of all the snow. He lived in Weed, CA which was around 3 hours away, I think. Anyway, at the end of the lesson, that evening, he asked me if I would like to become a Christian. I said, “Yes, I would like that.” He explained that I would be forgiven of all my sins and the Holy Spirit would then come in and dwell in me. Then he said, “Well let’s kneel right down here by the couch and say the “sinner’s prayer”. So we kneeled and I repeated the words he said to me.” After praying he said, “Now, Wayne, you are a Christian and God has forgiven you all of your sins and you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you.” I felt good, knowing I had accepted Christ as my Savior. After a few more pleasantries, I left, wishing him a safe trip home.

It was now about a week later and the day after Christmas. My brother Terry had come home from Bible college for Christmas at my parent's home. It was the day after Christmas that I told my brother that I had become a Christian. He was absolutely elated. He then asked me, “When were you baptized? I said, “What are you talking about?” Terry said, “You know, baptized.” I said, “I don’t know what you are talking about.” He said, “You know, immersed in water for the forgiveness of your sins.” I said, “I still don’t know what you are talking about.” Terry said, “You have to be baptized to become a Christian.” At this time, I stopped Terry right there and said, “Terry, I did become a Christian when I said the sinner's prayer. After praying I felt really good. But I will tell you what. Give me that book you showed me (Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance) and I will talk to you at the end of the week.”

For the rest of the week, when I came home after work, I studied. I began looking up three words, as I thought if I so did, I would find out whether he was right or I was right. I looked up every verse in the New Testament that had these three words: save, saves, or saved. In the process, I ran across 1 Peter 3:21 which says that “baptism saves you”. So then I looked up every place in the New Testament that talked about baptism, even the places where it talked about the washing of pots. When I finished, which was a Friday evening, New Year's Eve, I sat down with my brother and told him he was right, and I was wrong. I found no place where anyone ever said the sinner’s prayer. I was convinced by the scriptures that I was still lost in my sins and needed to be baptized for the forgiveness of my sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So Terry took me to the Church at Reno and after midnight, I was baptized into Christ.

The only preconceived idea I had was that I thought that one became a Christian by saying the sinner’s prayer. When my brother spoke to me about being baptized, I knew he was wrong and only studied the Bible to prove he was wrong. So, one can come to the conclusion that one needs to be baptized to be saved without any preconceived doctrinal notions in favor of being baptized.

Thank you for listening.

Wayne Cobb
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,148
5,722
113
#52
The Spirit interacted miraculously in two ways.
directly from Heaven Acts 2 and acts 10 (Holy Spirit Baptism)
and being passed on in a limited fashion by the hands to the apostles Acts 8

miracles have ended, either way 1Cor13:8-14
apostles have written by inspiration eph3:3-4 and passed on, their fruit remains Jn15:16
These direct from heaven events were unique, as Peter explains in Acts 11:15 He likens Acts 10 ”even as on us at the beginning”, to the singular event in Acts 2. He does not compare it to what happens to all believers since acts 2.

acts 2 proved Jesus was enthroned and salvation available to Jews
Acts2:16, 33,38

acts 10 proved the same salvation is a ailable to Gentiles
acts 10:47-48; 11:14, 17-18

“indwelling“ of the Spirit isnt miraculous, but revelatory. Via the word.

Romans 8 expressly says the Spirit gave a “law“ of life in Christ.
those who accept it obtain “the mind of the Spirit”. I,e. We learn to think as the Spirit directs through His law.
in this way the Spirit lives in a true Christian

thus, the Spirit of God dwells in such a person Rom8:9,11
such a person is “led by the Spirit of God” 8:14
etc.

through the revealed message, the law pf the Spirit of life… 8:1


by way of contrast, Paul asks rhetorical questions in 1Cor12:29-30
are all prophets? Are all teachers? do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

the obvious answer is “No”
not everyone had miraculous gifts even in the first century, and even those who had a gift did didnt have all the gifts.

The apostles were uniquely chosen as messengers. Only by their hands could others receive some gift In a measured or limited way.

Christ only gave the apostles all the gifts and the ability to pass on miracles to those they lay hands on.

all said, the work of the Spirit was to reveal all truth John16:13
this has been done and written 2 Tim3:16-17
this work makes a man of God complete in every way God intends
And we are warned not to think beyond what is written 1Cor4:6


besides, there is only one baptism today
eph 4:4
water by faith
eph 5:26-27
“But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah , to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭4:5-6‬ ‭

After Jesus is transfigured

“And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things.

But I say unto you, That Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭17:9-11

“And they answered him, He was an hairy man, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins.

And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite.”
‭‭2 Kings‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:( john the baptizer sent to establish the one baptism ordained by Gods holy spirit for remission of sins )

and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.”( Jesus the lord )
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1‬ ‭

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Which shall prepare thy way before thee.

The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight.( see Isaiah chapter 40)

John ( filled with the Holy Ghost from birth ) did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1-5, 8‬ ‭

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 
May 19, 2023
86
12
8
#53
Concerning the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, Paul wrote in about 61 to 63 AD in Ephesians 4:5 that there was one baptism. This was written 30 years after the start of the church and about 21 years after Cornelius and his household were baptized in the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 4:5 does not say what baptism this was, but if we go to Matthew 28:19-20, we find out three things that Christ commanded: First, they were to make disciples; second they were to baptize them and third they were continue to teach the disciples and this was to last until the end of the age or world. This being true, then the only baptism that remains is baptism in water in which someone does to those who want to become a Christian.

Then to put a cap on all of this, is says in Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, LOVE your wives, just as Christ also LOVED the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the declaration, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. This word "washing" means a "bath".

God bless you Pilgrimshope and Seddrik
Wayne
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
3,215
1,614
113
Midwest
#54
It is interesting how those who do not believe you need to be baptized in water for the forgiveness of their sins, always take them to scriptures that do not talk about baptism.
Precious friend, with all due respect, not sure how "making these kinds of
statements" would be very conducive to pointing others to God's Truth?

It is interesting that I have taken all who view my study to the very Scriptures
that DO "talk about water baptism for the remission of sins.":

Baptisms Scriptural Summary!:

And, Please Be Very Richly Blessed In CHRIST, And HIS Word Of Truth!:

LORD JESUS, please open our hearts to All of Thy Truth. Amen:

Q: Does God Still Require water baptism, Today, Under HIS PURE GRACE?:

God's Context of Prophecy/Law-Covenants, previously, for His nation of Israel:

►►► The Twelve Were Sent to { water } baptize! ◄◄◄

The TWO Main (of 12) baptismS =

►►►►►►
A) water, For remission of sins!:
(Matthew_3:5-6; Mark_1:4; Luke_3:3; John_1:31; Luke 7:29-30; Acts_10:37)
(Matthew_28:19; Mark_16:16; Acts_2:38, 22:16; Ezekiel_36:25) ◄◄◄◄◄◄

+

B) WITH The Holy Spirit, Poured Out By CHRIST, for power, signs And wonders!
(Isaiah_44:3; Matthew_3:11; Mark_1:8, 16:17-18;
Luke_24:49; Acts_2:17-18, 38, 8:15-17, 11:16)
↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑
prophecy/law-covenants to Israel

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

God Changed Dispensations ** To:
Mystery/GRACE Currently For His ONE Body Of Christ!:


►►► Paul Was Not Sent to { water } baptize! Why Not?: ◄◄◄

Today: Only ONE Baptism = "BY" The ONE Spirit = God's OPERATION,

Spiritually Identifying members In (The ONE Body Of) CHRIST!!
(Ephesians 4:5; Colossians_2:12; Galatians_3:27;
Romans_6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:13 KJB!)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion: God's ONE Baptism Today? = ONE?

Or, Equals two?

In light this "bad math" and the many ( 12? ) denominational Differences
of traditional doctrines of water rituals:

Is it not Possible That God's Answer Of "No water baptism, for us Today," Under
HIS Pure GRACE, absolutely vanquishes Satan's Confusion into oblivion!?

FULL "studies" here: 12 baptisms and here: ONE Baptism
--------------------------
** Note: the book of Acts is "transitional," not doctrinal.

Precious friend(s):

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided
(+ I and II). ← PG Rated "Approved" *

Grace, Peace, And JOY!… + RICH Blessings ♫ 😇 ↑

* PG = Perfect God / Parental Guidance:

Study to Be APPROVED Open Bible.png

Extra Bonus study:

UnScriptural or UNdispensational?