I'm mad

[jamie26301]

I'm upset.

You know, I'm searching. I'm tryinng to come to my own conclusions about what the word of God says. Or even it it is infalliable or not. (I'm leaning towards it being infalliable, and I treat it's words such, but I'm open to arguments that it's not.) The Bible tells us that we each must be convinced in our own minds.

I am not being tossed to and fro on every wind of doctrine. I'm am seeking. I am knocking. I am asking. I am patiently listening to everyone's point of view, so that I can come to my own point of view. I am a member of another forum that discusses theology, and I have learned much there. (People seem to be more civil on this forum though. ) I have coined a saying and it goes "If you don't know all sides of the argument, you hold your opinion in ignorance."

Speaking of that saying, I said it to one of my friends. We were talking about doctrines and she said "It's not my opinion, it's the word of God." No, lady, it is your opinion about the word of God. It is your intrepretation of the word of God. You see, we were dicussing homosexuality and abortion.

Take Genesis 1-2. There are the theasist evoultionists, who believe God used evolution. There are the young earth creationists, who believe the days are 24 hour days, and there are those who believe the days represent long periods of time. And that's just three. All intrepretations of Genesis 1-2. So obviously, there would be different intrepretations concerning homosexuality and the verses used by the pro-lifers.

Now homosexuality has been an interest of my lately. I listen to both sides of the argument and both sides have good points. So I'm on the fence. The same about abortion. And this lady acutally said that she's concerned for my soul, because I go to a church that embraces homosexulity. She says anyone who endorses it will go to hell. Uh, lady, I don't see in the Bible anywhere that someone goes to hell because they have false doctrine, especially if they hold that doctrine in ignorance.

The way I see it, is that there are hundreds of doctrines in the Bible. Why would you leave a church of your theological standpoint, because you disagree with them concerning one doctrine? Christians don't leave a church when it teaches free will and they are Calvinists. They stay. Why is homosexuality so different? It's just a doctrine just like any other doctrine.

I won't get into the arguments for homosexuality. I did that in other threads. What I'm saying is no one has the right to judge anyone! "Judge not, that you may not be judge. And the same measure you use, it will be measured back to you." Meaning, if you make a habit of pointing at people and saying they will go to hell, Jesus may one day point to you, and say you're going to hell. You reap what you sow.

I do not appreciate someone telling me that my soul is in danger because I disagree with them. There are times when souls are in danger. They have backsliden. They're not growing, reading their Bible, are lukewarm, etc. But when someone is seeking God and you say they're probably going to hell because they hold a different opinion, well, lets just say I fear for you. God judges the heart. And not one person can see another persons heart.

 

[shemaiah]

Well most of the time, as we grow as Christians we tend to make our relationship complex. We go on into theology, surveys, books that we forget that Christianity is just about spending time with God every day and spreading His love to everyone. If you go to some who is a murderer or addict and tell them your opinions on theology, they wont care. But going to them and showing them Gods love and care will change them forever. God bless

 

[Adrianv125]

Sorry but homosexuality is not a doctrine.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

There is no point of debate in this passage which clearly states that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God, by that he means being with God for an eternity. Not maybe, not probably, simply no.


Now, homosexuals should go to any congregation because it can be there where the spirit of God can work in their hearts and reach them, just as any other sinner like drunkards, drug addicts, fornicators, etc etc etc. But it is not right for them to practice their homosexuality in the congregation just like it is not right for drunkards to go to church and drink there, etc etc etc.

 

[Ramon]

I'm upset.

You know, I'm searching. I'm tryinng to come to my own conclusions about what the word of God says. Or even it it is infalliable or not. (I'm leaning towards it being infalliable, and I treat it's words such, but I'm open to arguments that it's not.) The Bible tells us that we each must be convinced in our own minds.

I am not being tossed to and fro on every wind of doctrine. I'm am seeking. I am knocking. I am asking. I am patiently listening to everyone's point of view, so that I can come to my own point of view. I am a member of another forum that discusses theology, and I have learned much there. (People seem to be more civil on this forum though. ) I have coined a saying and it goes "If you don't know all sides of the argument, you hold your opinion in ignorance."

Speaking of that saying, I said it to one of my friends. We were talking about doctrines and she said "It's not my opinion, it's the word of God." No, lady, it is your opinion about the word of God. It is your intrepretation of the word of God. You see, we were dicussing homosexuality and abortion.

Take Genesis 1-2. There are the theasist evoultionists, who believe God used evolution. There are the young earth creationists, who believe the days are 24 hour days, and there are those who believe the days represent long periods of time. And that's just three. All intrepretations of Genesis 1-2. So obviously, there would be different intrepretations concerning homosexuality and the verses used by the pro-lifers.

Now homosexuality has been an interest of my lately. I listen to both sides of the argument and both sides have good points. So I'm on the fence. The same about abortion. And this lady acutally said that she's concerned for my soul, because I go to a church that embraces homosexulity. She says anyone who endorses it will go to hell. Uh, lady, I don't see in the Bible anywhere that someone goes to hell because they have false doctrine, especially if they hold that doctrine in ignorance.

The way I see it, is that there are hundreds of doctrines in the Bible. Why would you leave a church of your theological standpoint, because you disagree with them concerning one doctrine? Christians don't leave a church when it teaches free will and they are Calvinists. They stay. Why is homosexuality so different? It's just a doctrine just like any other doctrine.

I won't get into the arguments for homosexuality. I did that in other threads. What I'm saying is no one has the right to judge anyone! "Judge not, that you may not be judge. And the same measure you use, it will be measured back to you." Meaning, if you make a habit of pointing at people and saying they will go to hell, Jesus may one day point to you, and say you're going to hell. You reap what you sow.

I do not appreciate someone telling me that my soul is in danger because I disagree with them. There are times when souls are in danger. They have backsliden. They're not growing, reading their Bible, are lukewarm, etc. But when someone is seeking God and you say they're probably going to hell because they hold a different opinion, well, lets just say I fear for you. God judges the heart. And not one person can see another persons heart.

My friend. It gets harder and harder for me to respond to this question.

We know that God creates things with purpose. The first clue as to why homosexuality is against God, is because it is completely against purpose. From the very design, a woman was not created for a woman, neither a man for a man. It is completely against purpose.

In the same way, you can create a hammer for a purpose of driving a nail through wood, but when someone uses it to kill someone, this is against purpose. It is obvious that the issue is not with the hammer, but with the person using it.

You can hear me, you can hear a preacher. But go read in the gospels about Jesus, and do not deny anything. One of the books that really jerked my soul was Proverbs.

Indeed, God judges the heart, and he knows who has denied hearing the truth for the sake of lust.

What makes me more sad is that there are people who embrace this in churches. Whoever the pastor of that church is will have to answer for that. I cannot judge him. He has one who judges him.

But sometimes what people do is try to be self righteous and condemn the person as if they are set up for hell, instead of showing them mercy, and forgiveness, and gently restoring them to the Truth, or even telling them the truth. Jesus spared the woman from the self righteous stoners, but he figured the woman got the idea that what she did was wrong, and that she should not continue to do it. Because of this mercy, she loved him, and followed him. And repented of the sin.

Well, I hope you understood me. May Jesus bless you.

 

[jamie26301]

Sorry but homosexuality is not a doctrine.

There is no point of debate in this passage which clearly states that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God, by that he means being with God for an eternity. Not maybe, not probably, simply no.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God. Therefore, King David won't be in the kingdom

 

[jamie26301]

My friend. It gets harder and harder for me to respond to this question.

We know that God creates things with purpose. The first clue as to why homosexuality is against God, is because it is completely against purpose. From the very design, a woman was not created for a woman, neither a man for a man. It is completely against purpose.

In the same way, you can create a hammer for a purpose of driving a nail through wood, but when someone uses it to kill someone, this is against purpose. It is obvious that the issue is not with the hammer, but with the person using it.

You can hear me, you can hear a preacher. But go read in the gospels about Jesus, and do not deny anything. One of the books that really jerked my soul was Proverbs.

Indeed, God judges the heart, and he knows who has denied hearing the truth for the sake of lust.

What makes me more sad is that there are people who embrace this in churches. Whoever the pastor of that church is will have to answer for that. I cannot judge him. He has one who judges him.

But sometimes what people do is try to be self righteous and condemn the person as if they are set up for hell, instead of showing them mercy, and forgiveness, and gently restoring them to the Truth, or even telling them the truth. Jesus spared the woman from the self righteous stoners, but he figured the woman got the idea that what she did was wrong, and that she should not continue to do it. Because of this mercy, she loved him, and followed him. And repented of the sin.

Well, I hope you understood me. May Jesus bless you.

People! MY purpose was not to have a thread about homosexuals! All I wanted from this thread was support for being unfairly judged because I went to a church that accepts homosexuaility.

 

[ladyr]

Well I would sometimes we get confused when hear different teachings. I feel we should ask God to gives us understanding, speak to him in prayer and let him direct our path. Proverbs Ch.3 : Trust in Lord with all your heart, on you own intelligence rely not.

 

[Red_Tory]

Really? Huh. I wouldn't be caught dead in a Calvinist church

 

[Anna80]

I don't see in the Bible anywhere that someone goes to hell because they have false doctrine, especially if they hold that doctrine in ignorance.

How convenient, isn't it? This is not ignorance, this is ignoring. Let's all doubt the Bible, keep our "ignorance" and go to heaven! How easy would that be! "For wide is the road that leads to destruction but narrow is the path that leads to life."
If you still doubt the Bible as being the infallible word of God it means you just didn't experience its power. Sorry for you.

 

[Anna80]

Adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God. Therefore, King David won't be in the kingdom

You should open your Bible again and read about David's repentance.

 

[Brandon777]

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Christians fornicate. Yes. Christians are also washed by the blood of the Lamb past, present, and future, held in His hand to keep their salvation and enterence to eternal life in heaven. King David is an Adulterer, but just like Anna said, He repented of His sin. What this Scripture is clearly telling us is that these things are sins and are abhorrent to God. There is absolutely no case for homosexuality being okay in the Bible. That is the work of Satan. Homosexuality being accepted in churches today is one of the saddest things to happen, crushing the viewpoints of the unsaved people who see what Christians are doing.

As far as Genesis goes. Read it the way it says. It's plain and simple. You don't have to put a twist on it. God created everything in 7 days, what's so hard about that? That is the most straightforward reading. If God wanted you to know more than that, He would have put more than that. Why read into something that isn't there?

 

[jamie26301]

You should open your Bible again and read about David's repentance.

I know about David's repentance. Did you not see the on the end of my statement? I only said it in jest.

But also I said it to point out that the passage in question is not to be taken as literally as some take it in terms of homosexuaility. If you applied it to all alderters, David would go to hell. So "homosexuals will not..." shouldn't be applied to all homosexuals.

People I hear ya. I really do. I understand your arguement and I'm actually leaning that way. I just think that for some Christians it's more gay-hateing than sin-hateing.

 

[jamie26301]

How convenient, isn't it? This is not ignorance, this is ignoring. Let's all doubt the Bible, keep our "ignorance" and go to heaven! How easy would that be! "For wide is the road that leads to destruction but narrow is the path that leads to life."
If you still doubt the Bible as being the infallible word of God it means you just didn't experience its power. Sorry for you.

I know the Scriptures say "If I regard iniquity in my heart the Lord won't hear me." But some people really aren't "ignoring" the truth. There are divisions in the church over EVERY doctrine, but a Calvinaist isn't going to hell because they ignore a free will doctrine. Some Christians who don't think homosexuality is sin, have their reasons (not saying I am one of them - I'm on the fence)

I also know the Scriptures say that anyone who comes to Jesus, He will be no wise cast that person out. Even if they have misunderstandings.

 

[Brandon777]

I just think that for some Christians it's more gay-hateing than sin-hateing.

Explain what you say here. Also look at this verse Psalm 5:5 "The arrogant shall not stand in your sight. You hate all workers of iniquity." God hates those who do evil. And also Psalm 11:4-7 Yahweh is in his holy temple.
Yahweh is on his throne in heaven.His eyes observe.His eyes examine the children of men. Yahweh examines the righteous,but the wicked and him who loves violence his soul hates. On the wicked he will rain blazing coals; fire, sulfur, and scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup. For Yahweh is righteous.He loves righteousness. The upright shall see his face.

God hates sin and people that do sin. If God hates gay activities then it is a natural progression of logic to say that He is gay-hateing, as we all should be, as it is sin. The affiliation of gay is also a sin.

 

[jamie26301]

God hates sin and people that do sin. If God hates gay activities then it is a natural progression of logic to say that He is gay-hateing, as we all should be, as it is sin. The affiliation of gay is also a sin.

If God hates all who do sin, then He hated me before I was saved, yet as people were witnessing to me they would say "God loves you."

Besides, for God to hate doesn't give US the right to hate. If we are to love our enemies, then we are to love sinners.

 

[jamie26301]

If God hates all who do sin, then He hated me before I was saved, yet as people were witnessing to me they would say "God loves you."

Besides, for God to hate doesn't give US the right to hate. If we are to love our enemies, then we are to love sinners.

And if Jesus sat with tax collectors and prostitutes, then what should our attitude be?

 

[apocalypseArisen]

Gays are like, the best people ever. I'm part of my school's gay-straight alliance and the only reason I really go is because I love the people. They're some of the coolest, most genuine people I've ever met. Seeing people hate them for no real reason really makes me angry sometimes.

And yes, I say no real reason for good reason. If your going to use the Bible's laws as justification for your prejudice, then you better follow all of them. You can't just pick and choose what doctrines to render as valid or culturally obsolete. Like, either laws like "don't wear a cotton-polyester blend" and "shaving is a killable offense" are still culturally relevant, or they don't apply anymore. The prescription against homosexuality goes along with this.

 

[eugenius]

jamie26301 I totally agree with you about homosexuality. I have nothing more to add. You have said exactly what I feel on the subject. Its bad enough that the media says phrases like "Jesus Christ hates many people, but none more than gays". That is a quote from family guy.

Us real Christians know that Jesus never hated anybody, and loved everyone equally. If the media said, "Christians hate gays" they would probably be right. But we are not being like Jesus if we do, and hence are not really Christians.

What you said about different points of view. I am a theist evolutionist I guess. I am not sure if I believe the theory of evolution 100%, but as an engineer/scientist I cannot ignore the scientific evidence. I see no reason why God could not have done it that way. He can do it any way he chooses.

 

[Brandon777]

If God hates all who do sin, then He hated me before I was saved, yet as people were witnessing to me they would say "God loves you."

Besides, for God to hate doesn't give US the right to hate. If we are to love our enemies, then we are to love sinners.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son..." John 3:16 So yes, God loves you. Yet it also says "Be holy for I am holy" 1 Peter 1:16 We are to love sinners and hate sinners in two different respects. Jesus stayed with the vilest offenders of his day loving them by showing them grace and remitting their sins, healing them and casting out demons. But that isn't to say that He didn't feel strongly towards the evil that was securely apart of their nature.

Referencing Psalm 5:5 This is from The Treasury of David Commentary: "Thou hatest all workers of iniquity." It is not a little dislike, but a thorough hatred which God bears to workers of iniquity. To be hated of God is an awful thing. O let us be very faithful in warning the wicked around us, for it will be a terrible thing for them to fall into the hands of an angry God (Psalm 94:23)! The phrase workers of iniquity is likely referencing notorious sinners who make sin their business, or trade. Just as there are people who live for their God, there are people that live to sin. Those are the people that God detests, but also wants to come to repentance so compassionately.

 

[jamie26301]

@ apocalypseArisen

So glad I'm not the only one who feels that way on this site! Yes, I know some gays are really nice and they are sterotyped all wrong.

@ engenius

I'm a young earth creationist myself but I respect other views on Genesis 1-2. And yes, Christians for the most part hate homosexuals. They do not hate the sin (if it is sin) itself, but the actuall people commiting the sin. It's a shame, because you're not going to witness to someone you hate, because if you hate them, why would you want them to be saved?

@Brandon77

I agree that Jesus loved the people but didn't approve of their sin. As for God hating workers of iniquity, I think He is refering to people who sin knowing they sin. Those who have thrown their concious out the window, who unashamedly lie, steal, and all sorts of other sins.

I think it's a different matter for homosexuals who don't feel like it's sin in their concious. Paul says the concious bears witness to sin. (Romans 1) and he was refering to sins such as homosexuailty, which man exchanged the natural use of a woman, ie a hetersexual man choosing sexual relations with a man.

I don't know that I agree that God detests a sinner and wants them to be saved at the same time. That's hard to get my mind around. Either God loves you or He doesn't. That said, I do not deny the Scripture you're refering to. I think when God hates a sinner, He hates that sinner after He has exhausted all efforts to save them and failed. Like in Proverbs 2, when Wisdom says she will not answer the sinner in his anguish, because the sinner ignored her when she called to him.