Who Justifieth the Ungodly
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
... more contextual illiteracy from brightfame52:Romans 3:
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Let's discuss Ephesians 1:7 and Colossians 1:14 in context ... because we are workmen, that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15):
Ephesians 1:7 is written to born again believers who are faithful in Christ Jesus (Eph 1:1).
Ephesians 1:7 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] we [the faithful in Christ Jesus] have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace
Colossians 1:14 is written to born again believers who are faithful brethren in Christ (Col 1:1).
Colossians 1:14 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] we [the faithful in Christ Jesus] have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins
God has made provision for the sin of all mankind ... all descendants of Adam ... and God tells us:
Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
You need to read Scripture just as it is written ... quit trying to re-write what the Author has written and just believe that what He has written is truth ... just as He has written it.
Those who reject God because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) have no other means of justification. They are without excuse because God has provided everything needed ... but some reject.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
Why do you not read Galatians 3:13 and Romans 3:24 IN THE CONTEXT within which the Author of Scripture has placed the verses ???
What is in the context of Galatians 3:13 that you do not want revealed ???
Galatians 3:
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
What is in the context of Romans 3:24 that you do not want revealed ???
Romans 3:
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
What is in the context of Galatians 3:13 that you do not want revealed ???
Galatians 3:
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
What is in the context of Romans 3:24 that you do not want revealed ???
Romans 3:
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
God refers to them as "whosoever believeth" ...
Romans 10:
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
.
Romans 10:
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
.
You already know the Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind. I have provided the verses to you numerous times ... yet you still suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18):
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
... God tells us when righteousness is imputed:
Romans 4:
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
When God reveals Himself to those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they will suffer the consequence ... not because the Lord Jesus Christ did not die to take away their sin ... but because they rejected Him:
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katecho = suppress, restrain] the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Those who do not believe suppress the truth in unrighteousness. They reject the truth of Scripture ... not because they do not have faith, but because they hold to something (place their faith in something) other than the truth of Scripture which God has clearly revealed to them.
.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
... God tells us when righteousness is imputed:Romans 4:
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
When God reveals Himself to those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they will suffer the consequence ... not because the Lord Jesus Christ did not die to take away their sin ... but because they rejected Him:
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katecho = suppress, restrain] the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Those who do not believe suppress the truth in unrighteousness. They reject the truth of Scripture ... not because they do not have faith, but because they hold to something (place their faith in something) other than the truth of Scripture which God has clearly revealed to them.
.
... more contextual illiteracy from brightfame52:Romans 3:
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Let's discuss Ephesians 1:7 and Colossians 1:14 in context ... because we are workmen, that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15):
Ephesians 1:7 is written to born again believers who are faithful in Christ Jesus (Eph 1:1).
Ephesians 1:7 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] we [the faithful in Christ Jesus] have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace
Colossians 1:14 is written to born again believers who are faithful brethren in Christ (Col 1:1).
Colossians 1:14 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] we [the faithful in Christ Jesus] have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins
God has made provision for the sin of all mankind ... all descendants of Adam ... and God tells us:
Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
You need to read Scripture just as it is written ... quit trying to re-write what the Author has written and just believe that what He has written is truth ... just as He has written it.
Those who reject God because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) have no other means of justification. They are without excuse because God has provided everything needed ... but some reject.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
that's what I believe ... we were ungodly before we were born again ... our ungodly lifestyle was a result of our being ungodly.
once we are born again, our living righteously and godly is a result of our being made righteous.
Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world
.
once we are born again, our living righteously and godly is a result of our being made righteous.
Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world
.
Well you cut out most of what I wrote, and it showed why I believe Rom4:5 tallies with Eph2:4&5. You have not responded to a further post of mine, I will repost it here:
Let's go one step at a time. I just quoted Paul to you, a person is made alive with Christ even when they are dead in transgression/sin. That is why I believe Rom4:5 refers to a person living an ungodly/sinfull lifestyle.
‘But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker. Gal2:17&18
The above verses relates to someone in Christ. They are sinners according to Paul.
What justification is Paul writing about? For it is one that clearly takes time to achieve, justification is instantaneous when someone accepts Christ as their saviour.
Why does Paul ask the question: Doesn't that mean that Christ promotes sin?
And what does he mean when he states: Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker
Let's go one step at a time. I just quoted Paul to you, a person is made alive with Christ even when they are dead in transgression/sin. That is why I believe Rom4:5 refers to a person living an ungodly/sinfull lifestyle.
‘But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker. Gal2:17&18
The above verses relates to someone in Christ. They are sinners according to Paul.
What justification is Paul writing about? For it is one that clearly takes time to achieve, justification is instantaneous when someone accepts Christ as their saviour.
Why does Paul ask the question: Doesn't that mean that Christ promotes sin?
And what does he mean when he states: Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker
What is in the context of Romans 3:24 that you do not want revealed ???
Romans 3:
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
What is in the context of Galatians 3:13 that you do not want revealed ???
Galatians 3:
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
ripping verses from the contexts within which the Author of Scripture has placed them does not mean you are free to re-write Scripture in your futile effort to align Scripture with your erroneous dogma. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.
You do not like the full counsel of Scripture??? ... take it up with the Author.
.
Romans 3:
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
What is in the context of Galatians 3:13 that you do not want revealed ???
Galatians 3:
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
ripping verses from the contexts within which the Author of Scripture has placed them does not mean you are free to re-write Scripture in your futile effort to align Scripture with your erroneous dogma. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.
You do not like the full counsel of Scripture??? ... take it up with the Author.
.
If God wanted Ephesians 2:4&5 to follow Romans 4:5, He would have written those verses right after Romans 4:5.
But God did not do that.
Romans 4:5 is not a standalone verse. The verse is written within the context of Romans 4.
Romans 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
The point of these verses is that faith is not works.
vs 2 – if Abraham was justified by works, Abraham would have something to glory of in himself.
vs 3 – when Abraham believed, God imputed righteousness to him.
vs 4 – if we work, our compensation is not of grace, but of debt ... iow it was earned by us.
vs 5 – if we do not work, but believe (i.e. faith ≠ works) on Him Who justifies the ungodly faith is counted for righteousness.
it is not our faith which justifies ... it is the Object of our faith Who justifies us.
As far as Ephesians 2:4&5 ... again, these are not standalone verses:
Ephesians 2:
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
vss 1-2 – these verses describe the believer before he or she is born again ... when we were dead in trespasses and sins (i.e. ungodly).
vs 3 – the word "conversation" ... that was our lifestyle. Because we were ungodly, our lifestyle was consumed with the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind.
vs 4 – God's great mercy and love for us ...
vs 5 – when we were dead in sins (i.e. ungodly) ... God made us alive (quickened) together with Christ through His grace (For by grace are ye saved through faith – Eph 2:8).
First of all, have you read Galatians 2 beginning at vs 1? The chapter relates to a situation which occurred in the early church. Also read Acts 15 which discusses the council at Jerusalem.
Galatians 2:
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor
vs 17 – there is no doubt we are justified by Christ and yet, we still stumble and sin every now and again. Just because we sin does that make the Lord Jesus Christ the minister of sin? ... Of course not!!!
vs 18 – if I build again the things which I destroyed ... iow ... if I seek to be justified by the law ... I make myself a transgressor because the law is incapable of making a person righteous.
The whole purpose of the law is to bring us to Christ so that we may be justified by faith:
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
.
But God did not do that.
Romans 4:5 is not a standalone verse. The verse is written within the context of Romans 4.
Romans 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
The point of these verses is that faith is not works.
vs 2 – if Abraham was justified by works, Abraham would have something to glory of in himself.
vs 3 – when Abraham believed, God imputed righteousness to him.
vs 4 – if we work, our compensation is not of grace, but of debt ... iow it was earned by us.
vs 5 – if we do not work, but believe (i.e. faith ≠ works) on Him Who justifies the ungodly faith is counted for righteousness.
it is not our faith which justifies ... it is the Object of our faith Who justifies us.
As far as Ephesians 2:4&5 ... again, these are not standalone verses:
Ephesians 2:
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
vss 1-2 – these verses describe the believer before he or she is born again ... when we were dead in trespasses and sins (i.e. ungodly).
vs 3 – the word "conversation" ... that was our lifestyle. Because we were ungodly, our lifestyle was consumed with the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind.
vs 4 – God's great mercy and love for us ...
vs 5 – when we were dead in sins (i.e. ungodly) ... God made us alive (quickened) together with Christ through His grace (For by grace are ye saved through faith – Eph 2:8).
First of all, have you read Galatians 2 beginning at vs 1? The chapter relates to a situation which occurred in the early church. Also read Acts 15 which discusses the council at Jerusalem.
Galatians 2:
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor
vs 17 – there is no doubt we are justified by Christ and yet, we still stumble and sin every now and again. Just because we sin does that make the Lord Jesus Christ the minister of sin? ... Of course not!!!
vs 18 – if I build again the things which I destroyed ... iow ... if I seek to be justified by the law ... I make myself a transgressor because the law is incapable of making a person righteous.
The whole purpose of the law is to bring us to Christ so that we may be justified by faith:
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
.
If God wanted Ephesians 2:4&5 to follow Romans 4:5, He would have written those verses right after Romans 4:5.
But God did not do that.
Romans 4:5 is not a standalone verse. The verse is written within the context of Romans 4.
Romans 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
The point of these verses is that faith is not works.
vs 2 – if Abraham was justified by works, Abraham would have something to glory of in himself.
vs 3 – when Abraham believed, God imputed righteousness to him.
vs 4 – if we work, our compensation is not of grace, but of debt ... iow it was earned by us.
vs 5 – if we do not work, but believe (i.e. faith ≠ works) on Him Who justifies the ungodly faith is counted for righteousness.
it is not our faith which justifies ... it is the Object of our faith Who justifies us.
As far as Ephesians 2:4&5 ... again, these are not standalone verses:
Ephesians 2:
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
vss 1-2 – these verses describe the believer before he or she is born again ... when we were dead in trespasses and sins (i.e. ungodly).
vs 3 – the word "conversation" ... that was our lifestyle. Because we were ungodly, our lifestyle was consumed with the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind.
vs 4 – God's great mercy and love for us ...
vs 5 – when we were dead in sins (i.e. ungodly) ... God made us alive (quickened) together with Christ through His grace (For by grace are ye saved through faith – Eph 2:8).
First of all, have you read Galatians 2 beginning at vs 1? The chapter relates to a situation which occurred in the early church. Also read Acts 15 which discusses the council at Jerusalem.
Galatians 2:
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor
vs 17 – there is no doubt we are justified by Christ and yet, we still stumble and sin every now and again. Just because we sin does that make the Lord Jesus Christ the minister of sin? ... Of course not!!!
vs 18 – if I build again the things which I destroyed ... iow ... if I seek to be justified by the law ... I make myself a transgressor because the law is incapable of making a person righteous.
The whole purpose of the law is to bring us to Christ so that we may be justified by faith:
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
.
But God did not do that.
Romans 4:5 is not a standalone verse. The verse is written within the context of Romans 4.
Romans 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
The point of these verses is that faith is not works.
vs 2 – if Abraham was justified by works, Abraham would have something to glory of in himself.
vs 3 – when Abraham believed, God imputed righteousness to him.
vs 4 – if we work, our compensation is not of grace, but of debt ... iow it was earned by us.
vs 5 – if we do not work, but believe (i.e. faith ≠ works) on Him Who justifies the ungodly faith is counted for righteousness.
it is not our faith which justifies ... it is the Object of our faith Who justifies us.
As far as Ephesians 2:4&5 ... again, these are not standalone verses:
Ephesians 2:
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
vss 1-2 – these verses describe the believer before he or she is born again ... when we were dead in trespasses and sins (i.e. ungodly).
vs 3 – the word "conversation" ... that was our lifestyle. Because we were ungodly, our lifestyle was consumed with the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind.
vs 4 – God's great mercy and love for us ...
vs 5 – when we were dead in sins (i.e. ungodly) ... God made us alive (quickened) together with Christ through His grace (For by grace are ye saved through faith – Eph 2:8).
First of all, have you read Galatians 2 beginning at vs 1? The chapter relates to a situation which occurred in the early church. Also read Acts 15 which discusses the council at Jerusalem.
Galatians 2:
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor
vs 17 – there is no doubt we are justified by Christ and yet, we still stumble and sin every now and again. Just because we sin does that make the Lord Jesus Christ the minister of sin? ... Of course not!!!
vs 18 – if I build again the things which I destroyed ... iow ... if I seek to be justified by the law ... I make myself a transgressor because the law is incapable of making a person righteous.
The whole purpose of the law is to bring us to Christ so that we may be justified by faith:
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
.
You would do well to learn sin is written about two different ways in the bible. 1John1:8&1John3:9 make that very clear.
As to stumbling on occasions. I have to wonder where you actually set the bar for not committing sin. Obeying the ten commandments? The bible states those laws are the letter that kills, the ministration of death and condemnation. Christ's commands in the gospels? Ive never met anyone in over fifty years who even trued to obey them all.
Try not to woodenly just quote a few selective scriptures, encompass the whole of the council of God. And where God's laws are concerned, don't dumb them down, hold them to the pristene level they are set at.
nope ... if you're not interested in reading the whole of chapter 2, at the very least read from vs 11:
Galatians 2:
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
vs 11 – Peter came to Antioch where Paul and Barnabas preached the gospel.
vs 12 – Peter mingled with gentiles until certain came from James. Once the certain came from James Peter separated himself in fear of the Jews (them which were of the circumcision).
vs 13 – other Jewish believers followed Peter's example ... they withdrew and separated themselves as well insomuch that Barnabas was also carried away with their dissimulation (Greek hypokrisis = hypocrisy).
vs 14 – Paul publicly rebuked the Jews who withdrew and separated themselves.
vs 16 – those who separated themselves knew that they were not justified by the works of the law, but by faith ... by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
vs 17 – just because we sin after coming to faith in Christ does that make the Lord Jesus Christ the minister of sin? ... Of course not!!!
vs 18 – if I seek to be justified by the law ... I make myself a transgressor because the law is incapable of making a person righteous.
continue reading to the end of the chapter ... if we go back to law-keeping justification, we end up frustrating (setting aside) the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain (Gal 2:21).
the only way I know of to overcome sin is to put on the Lord Jesus Christ
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
and I realize that as long as I live in this body in this world, I may stumble (sin). If I do, God is gracious and tells us if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness – 1 John 1:9.
that's what I'm trying to get you to do ... read the whole of Galatians 2 in order to glean what it is that vss 17&18 are talking about. It's not about "change takes time once you get saved" ... it's about folks who follow the law coming in to a body of believers and claiming they must do this or that to be justified and/or those who separate and withdraw in a hypocritical effort to appease others.
The "change takes time once you get saved" refers to sanctification ... the ongoing process which God works within the believer as He conforms the believer to the image of Christ. And this is a lifelong endeavor which will not be completed until we see Jesus face to face.
Justification, as you rightly claim ... "You get instantly justified when you come to Christ" ... you also stated "you are immediatley justified" ... that is true of justification.
.
Galatians 2:
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
vs 11 – Peter came to Antioch where Paul and Barnabas preached the gospel.
vs 12 – Peter mingled with gentiles until certain came from James. Once the certain came from James Peter separated himself in fear of the Jews (them which were of the circumcision).
vs 13 – other Jewish believers followed Peter's example ... they withdrew and separated themselves as well insomuch that Barnabas was also carried away with their dissimulation (Greek hypokrisis = hypocrisy).
vs 14 – Paul publicly rebuked the Jews who withdrew and separated themselves.
vs 16 – those who separated themselves knew that they were not justified by the works of the law, but by faith ... by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
vs 17 – just because we sin after coming to faith in Christ does that make the Lord Jesus Christ the minister of sin? ... Of course not!!!
vs 18 – if I seek to be justified by the law ... I make myself a transgressor because the law is incapable of making a person righteous.
continue reading to the end of the chapter ... if we go back to law-keeping justification, we end up frustrating (setting aside) the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain (Gal 2:21).
the only way I know of to overcome sin is to put on the Lord Jesus Christ
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
and I realize that as long as I live in this body in this world, I may stumble (sin). If I do, God is gracious and tells us if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness – 1 John 1:9.
that's what I'm trying to get you to do ... read the whole of Galatians 2 in order to glean what it is that vss 17&18 are talking about. It's not about "change takes time once you get saved" ... it's about folks who follow the law coming in to a body of believers and claiming they must do this or that to be justified and/or those who separate and withdraw in a hypocritical effort to appease others.
The "change takes time once you get saved" refers to sanctification ... the ongoing process which God works within the believer as He conforms the believer to the image of Christ. And this is a lifelong endeavor which will not be completed until we see Jesus face to face.
Justification, as you rightly claim ... "You get instantly justified when you come to Christ" ... you also stated "you are immediatley justified" ... that is true of justification.
.
You already know the Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind. I have provided the verses to you numerous times ... yet you still suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18):
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
When God reveals Himself to those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they will suffer the consequence ... not because the Lord Jesus Christ did not die to take away their sin ... but because they rejected Him:
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katecho = suppress, restrain] the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Those who do not believe suppress the truth in unrighteousness. They reject the truth of Scripture ... not because they do not have faith, but because they hold to something (place their faith in something) other than the truth of Scripture which God has clearly revealed to them.
.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
When God reveals Himself to those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they will suffer the consequence ... not because the Lord Jesus Christ did not die to take away their sin ... but because they rejected Him:
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katecho = suppress, restrain] the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Those who do not believe suppress the truth in unrighteousness. They reject the truth of Scripture ... not because they do not have faith, but because they hold to something (place their faith in something) other than the truth of Scripture which God has clearly revealed to them.
.