Faith alone, faith plus works? Something is missing in this discussion

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,191
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
I make no mistakes and can make .o mistakes sticking solely with the simple truth of God's inspired word. Believe whatever junk you like. Goodbye 👋
Some early church leaders beleived the Didache is Scripture and quoted it as such.



If you don’t know history, then you don’t know anything. You are a leaf that doesn’t know it is part of a tree.


“Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts.”
“No research without action, no action without research”
"In fact, the world needs more nerds."
"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing."
“The best research you can do is talk to people”
“Nothing has such power to broaden the mind as the ability to investigate systematically and truly all that comes under thy observation in life.”
“Research is something that everyone can do, and everyone ought to do. It is simply collecting information and thinking systematically about it.”
“If we knew what we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?”
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,191
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
Adding the word have doers not change anytthing

the word recieve means to grab ahold. To grasp.

this is who God gives the right or power to become his children.
James 1:22-25
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. ...

2 Kings 22:5
And let them deliver it into the hand of the doers of the work, that have the oversight of the house of the Lord: and let them give it to the doers of the work which is in the house of the Lord, to repair the breaches of the house,
Psalm 31:23
O love the Lord, all ye his saints: for the Lord preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.
Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,191
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
2 Peter 1
King James Version
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

2 Peter 1:1-14
Easy-to-Read Version
1 Greetings from Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ.

To all of you who share in the same valuable faith that we have. This faith was given to us because our God and Savior Jesus Christ always does what is good and right.

2 Grace and peace be given to you more and more, because now you know God and Jesus our Lord.

God Has Given Us Everything We Need
3 Jesus has the power of God. And his power has given us everything we need to live a life devoted to God. We have these things because we know him. Jesus chose us by his glory and goodness, 4 through which he also gave us the very great and rich gifts that he promised us. With these gifts you can share in being like God. And so you will escape the ruin that comes to people in the world because of the evil things they want.

5 Because you have these blessings, do all you can to add to your life these things: to your faith add goodness; to your goodness add knowledge; 6 to your knowledge add self-control; to your self-control add patience; to your patience add devotion to God; 7 to your devotion add kindness toward your brothers and sisters in Christ, and to this kindness add love. 8 If all these things are in you and growing, you will never fail to be useful to God. You will produce the kind of fruit that should come from your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But those who don’t grow in these blessings are blind. They cannot see clearly what they have. They have forgotten that they were cleansed from their past sins.

10 My brothers and sisters, God called you and chose you to be his. Do your best to live in a way that shows you really are God’s called and chosen people. If you do all this, you will never fall. 11 And you will be given a very great welcome into the kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, a kingdom that never ends.

12 You already know these things. You are very strong in the truth you have. But I am always going to help you remember them. 13 While I am still living here on earth, I think it is right for me to remind you of them. 14 I know that I must soon leave this body. Our Lord Jesus Christ has shown me that.

14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

Ephesians 2:10
Easy-to-Read Version
10 God has made us what we are. In Christ Jesus, God made us new people so that we would spend our lives doing the good things he had already planned for us to do.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,191
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
You can search among those 43K denominations, and you won't find a single one of them that you perfectly agree with on everything. You're entitled to your God-given uniqueness and freedom of exploration.
1691713225700.jpeg 1691713249019.jpeg 1691713338303.jpeg 1691713383222.jpeg


The pictures are for the nonesense of 43,000
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,191
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
That is exactly the point.

Baptism was not mentioned in the context of the gospel.
what is the best response to

Mark 16:16

King James Version



16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,191
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
False. There is only one baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Also see John 4:10,14; 7:37 for the word drink(s).
Ephesians 4

Easy-to-Read Version



The Unity of the Body
4 So, as a prisoner for the Lord, I beg you to live the way God’s people should live, because he chose you to be his. 2 Always be humble and gentle. Be patient and accept each other with love. 3 You are joined together with peace through the Spirit. Do all you can to continue as you are, letting peace hold you together. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, and God chose you to have one hope. 5 There is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. 6 There is one God and Father of us all, who rules over everyone. He works through all of us and in all of us.
7 Christ gave each one of us a special gift. Everyone received what he wanted to give them. 8 That is why the Scriptures say,
“He went up high into the sky;
he took prisoners with him,
and he gave gifts to people.”
9 When it says, “He went up,” what does it mean? It means that he first came down low to earth. 10 So Christ came down, and he is the same one who went up. He went up above the highest heaven in order to fill everything with himself. 11 And that same Christ gave these gifts to people: He made some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to go and tell the Good News, and some to care for and teach God’s people.[a] 12 Christ gave these gifts to prepare God’s holy people for the work of serving, to make the body of Christ stronger. 13 This work must continue until we are all joined together in what we believe and in what we know about the Son of God. Our goal is to become like a full-grown man—to look just like Christ and have all his perfection.
14 Then we will no longer be like babies. We will not be people who are always changing like a ship that the waves carry one way and then another. We will not be influenced by every new teaching we hear from people who are trying to deceive us—those who make clever plans and use every kind of trick to fool others into following the wrong way. 15 No, we will speak the truth with love. We will grow to be like Christ in every way. He is the head, 16 and the whole body depends on him. All the parts of the body are joined and held together, with each part doing its own work. This causes the whole body to grow and to be stronger in love.
The Way You Should Live
17 I have something from the Lord to tell you. I warn you: Don’t continue living like those who don’t believe. Their thoughts are worth nothing. 18 They have no understanding, and they know nothing because they refuse to listen. So they cannot have the life that God gives. 19 They have lost their feeling of shame and use their lives to do what is morally wrong. More and more they want to do all kinds of evil. 20 But that way of life is nothing like what you learned when you came to know Christ. 21 I know that you heard about him, and in him you were taught the truth. Yes, the truth is in Jesus. 22 You were taught to leave your old self. This means that you must stop living the evil way you lived before. That old self gets worse and worse, because people are fooled by the evil they want to do. 23 You must be made new in your hearts and in your thinking. 24 Be that new person who was made to be like God, truly good and pleasing to him.
25 So you must stop telling lies. “You must always speak the truth to each other,”[b] because we all belong to each other in the same body. 26 “When you are angry, don’t let that anger make you sin,”[c] and don’t stay angry all day. 27 Don’t give the devil a way to defeat you. 28 Whoever has been stealing must stop it and start working. They must use their hands for doing something good. Then they will have something to share with those who are poor.
29 When you talk, don’t say anything bad. But say the good things that people need—whatever will help them grow stronger. Then what you say will be a blessing to those who hear you. 30 And don’t make the Holy Spirit sad. God gave you his Spirit as proof that you belong to him and that he will keep you safe until the day he makes you free. 31 Never be bitter, angry, or mad. Never shout angrily or say things to hurt others. Never do anything evil. 32 Be kind and loving to each other. Forgive each other the same as God forgave you through
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,475
13,419
113
58
Be specific
False. Yes, you are. You are disagreeing with the clear, straightforward words of the bible not me. Yes, there is only one baptism that places us in the body of Christ, and it's clear which one it is: immersion in water as was initiated by John the Baptist and which is carried forward as the norm throughout NT scripture unless otherwise stated.
I showed you from scripture that there is only one baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Also see John 4:10,14; 7:37 for the word drink(s). It's you who is disagreeing with the clear, straightforward words of the Bible not me. Your bias and stubbornness continue to show.

And 1 Cor 12:13 on which we've exchanged comments before, is really "in one Spirit" not by one Spirit" when you look at the original Greek.
One minute you advocate plain English and now you are resorting to the original Greek which doesn't change the truth I already explained to you. For we were all baptized by[a] (Or with; or in) one Spirit.. For by one Spirit are we all baptized. This is to be understood not of water baptism; for the apostle says not in one, and the same water, but "by", or "in" one Spirit, are we all baptized; the baptism of water, and Spirit baptism are two different things; see (Matthew 3:11). Well folks, DJT_47 is wrong again.

Acts 2:38-47 clearly tells you how and why WATER baptism is required: for the remission of sins, to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and to be added to the body of Christ by the Lord himself.
I'm sorry but your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 is not in harmony with (Luke 24:47; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) Now for the upteenth time, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

In regard to Acts 2:41, those who gladly received his word (upon repentance/faith implied or assumed) were "afterwards" baptized. So, they were added to the Lord upon repentance/faith prior to receiving water baptism, just as we see in (Acts 10:43;47; 11:17-18).

In regard to being added to the body of Christ by the Lord Himself, water is not said to be the cause.

Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

These words of scripture can't be twisted or manipulated no matter how hard one may try. If Acts 2:38 tells you the point at which you receive the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, which it does, how is it that the Holy Ghost is baptizing you somehow by some unknown other process according to your logic, and obvious misunderstanding and misspplication of 1 Cor 12:13?
If Acts 2:38 and 1 Corinthians 12:13 did teach what you are implying then we would have multiple contradictions in scripture, so your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 and misapplication of 1 Corinthians 12:13 must be rejected. Roman Catholics and Mormons along with other works-salvationists would agree with your biased interpretation surrounding water baptism which should be a major red flag for you but you are too biased and too blind to see it.

It's also easy to see, by even a casual reading of Romans 6, that only water baptism can accomplish the simulation of Christ's burial and resurrectionas discussed therein.
Water baptism is the picture of the simulation of Christ's death, burial and resurrection but is not the reality of causing us to be buried and raised with Christ. As Greek scholar AT Robertson put it so well: The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forwards to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave (F. B. Meyer). There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

Romans 6 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
 

DJT_47

Well-known member
Oct 20, 2022
1,064
187
63
Some early church leaders beleived the Didache is Scripture and quoted it as such.



If you don’t know history, then you don’t know anything. You are a leaf that doesn’t know it is part of a tree.


“Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts.”
“No research without action, no action without research”
"In fact, the world needs more nerds."
"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing."
“The best research you can do is talk to people”
“Nothing has such power to broaden the mind as the ability to investigate systematically and truly all that comes under thy observation in life.”
“Research is something that everyone can do, and everyone ought to do. It is simply collecting information and thinking systematically about it.”
“If we knew what we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?”
Scripture is Scripture not what some believe it to be. It was already quite apparent the early church of the bible was already experiencing problems and was starting to go astray bring influences by false teaching and doctrines. Why would we then think that the church and doctrines were not even becoming more corrupted and off the rails as time went on, and why then would we think the did ache be more accurate than the actual scriptures and put our faith in this secondary document.? Makes no sense and in fact makes very bad sense. And by what authority would such a document have to supercede the Holy Scriptures, those that were actually inspired?? Bad idea. Believe that nonsense if you like, but I sure won't.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,191
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
Scripture is Scripture not what some believe it to be. It was already quite apparent the early church of the bible was already experiencing problems and was starting to go astray bring influences by false teaching and doctrines. Why would we then think that the church and doctrines were not even becoming more corrupted and off the rails as time went on, and why then would we think the did ache be more accurate than the actual scriptures and put our faith in this secondary document.? Makes no sense and in fact makes very bad sense. And by what authority would such a document have to supercede the Holy Scriptures, those that were actually inspired?? Bad idea. Believe that nonsense if you like, but I sure won't.
The canon of the NT was not defined until about 400 AD CE.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,191
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
Scripture is Scripture not what some believe it to be. It was already quite apparent the early church of the bible was already experiencing problems and was starting to go astray bring influences by false teaching and doctrines. Why would we then think that the church and doctrines were not even becoming more corrupted and off the rails as time went on, and why then would we think the did ache be more accurate than the actual scriptures and put our faith in this secondary document.? Makes no sense and in fact makes very bad sense. And by what authority would such a document have to supercede the Holy Scriptures, those that were actually inspired?? Bad idea. Believe that nonsense if you like, but I sure won't.
Truth is doctrine was becoming more defined via Church FAthers(who were taught by the Apostles) and by Councils. You get a failing grade when it comes to Church History.
 

DJT_47

Well-known member
Oct 20, 2022
1,064
187
63
The canon of the NT was not defined until about 400 AD CE.
So what? Does that somehow validate non-scripture giving it the same or even more credence? Do the words of the did ache supercede the words of the bible? You can believe that if you like but I certainly don't.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,312
3,618
113
"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." 1 John 5:4
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,774
113
The canon of the NT was not defined until about 400 AD CE.
That may be what the Catholic Church would have you believe, but it is not historically true. And never forget that the Catholic Church also included seven non-canonical books into their bibles. BTW, the term "C.E" is used by unbelievers. Believers use the term "A.D." = Anno Domini = In the year of our Lord = acknowledgement that dating is governed by Christ.