Is it a moral or legal obligation to pay a debt to a bank?

[SpeakTruth101]

So why is it up to a court to decide whether or not the contract is illegal, but not up to a court to decide whether or not the defaulter has truly defaulted? The bank is trying to impose God's standards on people, while using man's standards to allow it's illegal activities.

Man's standards allows the bank to commit fraud and to steal (commit usury). Man's standards also allow for a person to default or go bankrupt on a debt they can't repay.

God's standards do not allow banks to commit fraud or to steal (i.e. commit usury or charge interest on loans). God's standards also require men to honour their word with respect to debt.

The bank is using man's standards for itself (by it's acceptance of fraud and stealing to make money), but then demanding that its debtors comply with God's standards to pay back the money defaulted on. In short, they're trying to have their cake and eat it too. Banks have done this for too long, and this is why they are all going bankrupt. Dishonestly profiting from dishonest money.

So if it's left to a court to decide whether a contract is illegal, it's also up to the same court to make the defaulter pay back his debt.

This post is full of wisdom, one can not honestly discuss the topic without considering this.

 

[Moses_Young]

Bankruptcy is a license to steal granted by the government. The only ethical pardon would be if your creditor pardoned you.

So is usury (interest) practiced by banks, and fractional reserve banking (fraud where the banks lend money they don't have and that doesn't exist). Either follow man's laws, or God's laws, but don't try and mix them up.

 

[ResidentAlien]

So is usury (interest) practiced by banks, and fractional reserve banking (fraud where the banks lend money they don't have and that doesn't exist). Either follow man's laws, or God's laws, but don't try and mix them up.

Well, I can't argue with Moses.

 

[Tall_Timbers]

The fraud is that the bank never had the money to begin with. It's loaning money that doesn't exist, and worse, charging usury on the non-existent money.
If you signed it, you are agreeing to the rules of man, not of God. The rules of man allow for bankruptcy and default, so the bank has no cause to complain.

If it tries to pull the "moral" card, it is in default for fraud and usury, so must restitute for these crimes first.

The bottom line is, I agreed to some thing and thus am morally bound to make good on my end of the deal. I would never want to enter in to any kind of agreement with any person who places no value in their word, their promise, their commitment to do a certain thing. It really has nothing to do with the traits that the bank or lender might have. That's not my responsibility. It is my responsibility to vet the institution/person(s) I'm considering entering into an agreement with.

 

[Moses_Young]

The bottom line is, I agreed to some thing and thus am morally bound to make good on my end of the deal. I would never want to enter in to any kind of agreement with any person who places no value in their word, their promise, their commitment to do a certain thing. It really has nothing to do with the traits that the bank or lender might have. That's not my responsibility. It is my responsibility to vet the institution/person(s) I'm considering entering into an agreement with.

The point is, the bank is breaking God's law, but following man's law. By signing the contract, you are agreeing to man's law. Man's law allows for default/bankruptcy... So why is there a problem? If you suddenly go back are argue moral law (which isn't in the contract under man's law), then you are obliged to introduce the fact that by fraud and usury, the bank is also breaking the moral law. The bank (like the snake, it's master) doesn't have a leg to stand on.

 

[tourist]

There are instances when you don't legally have to repay bank debts such as bankruptcy but that in itself does not relieve you of the moral obligations. For instance, you cannot morally run up credit cards to the max without the intention or fiscal responsibility to pay them off.

 

[Moses_Young]

There are instances when you don't legally have to repay bank debts such as bankruptcy but that in itself does not relieve you of the moral obligations. For instance, you cannot morally run up credit cards to the max without the intention or fiscal responsibility to pay them off.

I would expect this behaviour - running up debts without intending to repay them - would be along the lines of fraud (which is as bad as what the banks routinely do, by lending money they don't have). I understood this topic was more around situations where people intended to repay the loan, but due to excessive usury or other circumstances, became unable to repay. I'd argue the moral obligations under such circumstances only go so far as the bank's moral obligations not to commit fraud/usury (i.e. these obligations don't exist, as the contract was made under man's laws, as God's laws don't allow usury or fraud to begin with).

 

[Tall_Timbers]

There are instances when you don't legally have to repay bank debts such as bankruptcy but that in itself does not relieve you of the moral obligations. For instance, you cannot morally run up credit cards to the max without the intention or fiscal responsibility to pay them off.

I agree with you. Bankruptsy would not remove the fact that I entered into a binding agreement. Morally, I would still be responsible to make good on my agreement. Full disclosure: I have no loans or debt and have made a point in my life to avoid such.

 

[tourist]

I agree with you. Bankruptsy would not remove the fact that I entered into a binding agreement. Morally, I would still be responsible to make good on my agreement. Full disclosure: I have no loans or debt and have made a point in my life to avoid such.

You were wise to do so. I've made a few financial mistakes in my life, some I am still working to resolve.

 

[posthuman]

If you signed it, you are agreeing to the rules of man, not of God. The rules of man allow for bankruptcy and default, so the bank has no cause to complain.

Proverbs 6:1-4
My son, if you have put up security for your neighbor, if you have shaken hands in pledge for a stranger, you have been trapped by what you said, ensnared by the words of your mouth. So do this, my son, to free yourself, since you have fallen into your neighbor's hands: Go—to the point of exhaustion— and give your neighbor no rest! Allow no sleep to your eyes, no slumber to your eyelids.

If you have put yourself in debt to the bank you have a moral obligation to make good on your debt.
you have taken an oath and a vow to the bank. you don't get to break it just because you feel like it, or because you don't like the oath anymore, or the one you vowed to, without guilt.

 

[JohnDB]

In this thread there seems to be this notion of Goverments and Bank corporations as "second or third class people". As if they are "beneath" you and not worthy of being treated fairly or with justice.

That flies in the face of everything God and Jesus have said. Servant leadership and humility are not entering this discussion whatsoever.

It's NOT OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT GAINS US ACCESS INTO HEAVEN!

We are not righteous enough to even consider such things. We are not righteous....only forgiven by God....whom we need to fear as well as love.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Debt forgiveness is a thing in the bible/Law of Moses too, though; granted we don't do it the exact same way... but I would say that bankruptcy does remove any obligation to make good on your agreement... because the debt has been forgiven.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Debt forgiveness is a thing in the bible/Law of Moses too, though; granted we don't do it the exact same way... but I would say that bankruptcy does remove any obligation to make good on your agreement... because the debt has been forgiven.

Forgiven by whom? If someone owes you $10,000, and they discharge it in bankruptcy without any consent from you, did you forgive the debt? You're the one owed the money, not the courts.

 

[Duck]

If you signed it, you weren't cheated.

read the fine print.

Ok then, open your mortgage contract and check your interest. Call your mortgage lender and ask what is the payoff. You'll find in your contract that they did not state that you are only paying interest for the first 10 years and little on your loan. Did they tell you that up front, nope. But banking laws allow them to do it. They get most of their money upfront, then they will sell your loan to another for the long term interest. Underhanded trickery. This why I pay cash for the houses I buy, by God's Grace, I can afford it.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Forgiven by whom? If someone owes you $10,000, and they discharge it in bankruptcy without any consent from you, did you forgive the debt? You're the one owed the money, not the courts.

Right; but it's no different than when the Law of Moses made the Israelites cancel debt owed to them... we just don't do it on intervals like they did.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Right; but it's no different than when the Law of Moses made the Israelites cancel debt owed to them... we just don't do it on intervals like they did.

It actually wasn't the "law of Moses" but it was God's will for the people at the time. His will under Christ is for believers to pay their debts. Whether your creditor is a loathsome scumbag is irrelevant. If you were willing to take their money in the first place you should be willing to pay it back; unless of course you signed an illegal contract as I've already said numerous times. Personally though I think people should avoid borrowing money altogether.

 

[SomeDisciple]

It actually wasn't the "law of Moses" but it was God's will for the people at the time.

I... have no idea what you're saying here. That Deut.15 isn't the law of Moses; or is it because the law of Moses was the will of God- it's okay for God to make you forgive debt; but not okay for modern government to make you forgive debt?

But either way, Deut 15 provides for involuntary debt forgiveness; I'm pretty sure the NT doesn't prohibit involuntary debt forgiveness by the government. I'm not saying I like the way bankruptcy works; but if your debt is forgiven it's forgiven.

Whether your creditor is a loathsome scumbag is irrelevant. If you were willing to take their money in the first place you should be willing to pay it back;

Oh, I agree with that; I said as much earlier. You should definitely not borrow what you don't intend to repay. But I'm not so sure that people still have a moral obligation to pay even after they've filed bankruptcy.

 

[JohnB]

Proverbs 6:1-4
My son, if you have put up security for your neighbor, if you have shaken hands in pledge for a stranger, you have been trapped by what you said, ensnared by the words of your mouth. So do this, my son, to free yourself, since you have fallen into your neighbor's hands: Go—to the point of exhaustion— and give your neighbor no rest! Allow no sleep to your eyes, no slumber to your eyelids.

If you have put yourself in debt to the bank you have a moral obligation to make good on your debt.
you have taken an oath and a vow to the bank. you don't get to break it just because you feel like it, or because you don't like the oath anymore, or the one you vowed to, without guilt.

That would be foolish, since the government (Caesar) has given you exemptions. The banks would leave you broke and homeless if they could.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I... have no idea what you're saying here. That Deut.15 isn't the law of Moses; or is it because the law of Moses was the will of God- it's okay for God to make you forgive debt; but not okay for modern government to make you forgive debt?

Simply put, I'm saying it was God's will under the old covenant for the people to have Jubilees. The same principle of forgiveness applies in Christ but it's not quite the same. For example, if a brother or sister owes me money, there might be cases where I would forgive their debt in the spirit of love. But if I owe money to an unbeliever or institution who isn't willing to forgive the debt, it's my responsibility to pay it. If my brothers and sisters in Christ are willing to help me, maybe that's a possibility. Bankruptcy allows people to do an end run around their responsibility to pay what they owe.

In Philemon, Paul tells Philemon if Onesimus owes him anything for him to charge it to his account; he didn't tell him to forget about it. He knew it wasn't right to leave Philemon high and dry.

 

[posthuman]

The banks would leave you broke and homeless if they could.

really don't think that's the case. banks are for-profit, they profit primarily by investing money you have stored in their accounts and gleaning interest from loans.
As a business a bank wants their account holders to prosper, not to fail. they want their borrowers to be able to borrow more and to leave more in their savings accounts for longer.

if you were a grocery store, would your goal be to make everyone poor and destitute so they couldn't afford to buy any groceries? of course not. you want them to be able to afford to spend more, if anything.
so why does the price of milk and bread go up? not because the grocer is out to get you.