Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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Thats not what it says
Hebrews 6:4-12, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Set-apart Spirit, and have tasted the good Word of the Mighty One and the powers of the age to come, and fall away, to renew them again to repentance – having impaled for themselves the Son of the Mighty One again, and put Him to open shame. For ground that is drinking the rain often falling on it, and is bearing plants fit for those by whom it is tilled, receives blessing from the Mighty One, but if it brings forth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and near to being cursed, and ends up by being burned. But although we speak in this way, beloved, we are persuaded, concerning you, of better matters which possess deliverance. For the Mighty One is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His Name, in that you have attended to the set-apart ones, and still attend. And we desire that each one of you show the same eagerness, to the entire confirmation of expectation until the end, in order that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through belief and patience inherit the promises."
Hebrews 6:4-12, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Set-apart Spirit, and have tasted the good Word of the Mighty One and the powers of the age to come, and fall away, to renew them again to repentance – having impaled for themselves the Son of the Mighty One again, and put Him to open shame. For ground that is drinking the rain often falling on it, and is bearing plants fit for those by whom it is tilled, receives blessing from the Mighty One, but if it brings forth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and near to being cursed, and ends up by being burned. But although we speak in this way, beloved, we are persuaded, concerning you, of better matters which possess deliverance. For the Mighty One is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His Name, in that you have attended to the set-apart ones, and still attend. And we desire that each one of you show the same eagerness, to the entire confirmation of expectation until the end, in order that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through belief and patience inherit the promises."
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Why the personal attacks? DO you think im a dog or pig?
Or is he using the proverb "“A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “A washed sow returns to her rolling in the mud.”
to describe one who came to know the MEssiah and then falls away? "“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Saviour יהושע Messiah, they are again entangled in them and overcome, "
Again noone has ever " escaped the defilements of the world through" without being IN MESSIAH. Yahshua sayd "but without Me, you can do nothing"
1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”
John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing...."
2 Peter 2:20-22, “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Saviour יהושע Messiah, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the set-apart command delivered unto them. For them the proverb has proved true, “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “A washed sow returns to her rolling in the mud.”
Or is he using the proverb "“A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “A washed sow returns to her rolling in the mud.”
to describe one who came to know the MEssiah and then falls away? "“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Saviour יהושע Messiah, they are again entangled in them and overcome, "
Again noone has ever " escaped the defilements of the world through" without being IN MESSIAH. Yahshua sayd "but without Me, you can do nothing"
1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”
John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing...."
2 Peter 2:20-22, “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Saviour יהושע Messiah, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the set-apart command delivered unto them. For them the proverb has proved true, “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “A washed sow returns to her rolling in the mud.”
Except the context of Hebrews 10 is this:
But none the less, I posted that to show the whole chapter and its context, that was not a passage I posted to show it outright, because we dont know the exact mindset and belief of those he is speaking to. The book is mostly about the change in priesthood. and again I was posting that for context not proof text.
What personal attack?
You posted that a dog returns to his vomit, and a pig to the mud.
I'm asking if you are a dog or pig?
I have a soft spot for guys like you. I used to believe one could lose his salvation. It's actually a distressing place to be as a Christian. Brethren, and the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the impossibility of that.
Your Bio says you are a Christian. I'm assuming you believe you are a born again child of God. What would have to happen for you to no longer be His child, and lost?
You posted that a dog returns to his vomit, and a pig to the mud.
I'm asking if you are a dog or pig?
I have a soft spot for guys like you. I used to believe one could lose his salvation. It's actually a distressing place to be as a Christian. Brethren, and the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the impossibility of that.
Your Bio says you are a Christian. I'm assuming you believe you are a born again child of God. What would have to happen for you to no longer be His child, and lost?
Funny, I quote the word you talk about me. If I fall short there will be crying and gnashing of teeth, if I endure I will be in the Kingdom of YHWH, He is the judge. Personally, I proclaim faith and a will to do what He wants me to. Nothing more nothing less.
Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”
Hebrews 3:14, “For we have become partakers of Messiah if we hold fast the beginning of our trust firm to the end.”
Revelation 3:12, "He who overcomes, I will make a pillar in The House of My Father, and he will never go out of it. And I will write upon him the Name of My Father, and the Name of the New Yerusalem which comes down out of heaven from My Father, newly named."
For scripture interprets scripture, and nobody can preach or teach differently than what Yahshua already taught, and He Himself said He taught the doctrine of YHWH. What is promised to us is eternal life, so once again; once you have done the will of Yah in your life, in the resurrection you receive it. Not before.
James 1:12, "Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him."
Revelation 12:11, “And they overcame him because of the Blood of the Lamb, and because of the Word of their witness, and they did not love their lives to the death."
Mat 25:23, “His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.”
Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”
Hebrews 3:14, “For we have become partakers of Messiah if we hold fast the beginning of our trust firm to the end.”
Revelation 3:12, "He who overcomes, I will make a pillar in The House of My Father, and he will never go out of it. And I will write upon him the Name of My Father, and the Name of the New Yerusalem which comes down out of heaven from My Father, newly named."
For scripture interprets scripture, and nobody can preach or teach differently than what Yahshua already taught, and He Himself said He taught the doctrine of YHWH. What is promised to us is eternal life, so once again; once you have done the will of Yah in your life, in the resurrection you receive it. Not before.
James 1:12, "Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him."
Revelation 12:11, “And they overcame him because of the Blood of the Lamb, and because of the Word of their witness, and they did not love their lives to the death."
Mat 25:23, “His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.”
You still don't get it dude! IF you are a child of God, YOU are a sheep!
Not a dog or a pig, which the passage was talking about that you posted.
Those people weren't sheep that morphed into dogs or pigs. They were ALWAYS dogs and pigs.
So you are relying on YOUR works, and YOUR behavior to keep you saved? Where is Jesus in that equation?
Jude 1:24
“Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,”
ALL those passages you posted are DESCRIPTIVE of what a true born again child of God will do. They are NOT prescriptive.
so. are you relying on YOUR works, and deeds, or Jesus's.
Not a dog or a pig, which the passage was talking about that you posted.
Those people weren't sheep that morphed into dogs or pigs. They were ALWAYS dogs and pigs.
So you are relying on YOUR works, and YOUR behavior to keep you saved? Where is Jesus in that equation?
Jude 1:24
“Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,”
ALL those passages you posted are DESCRIPTIVE of what a true born again child of God will do. They are NOT prescriptive.
so. are you relying on YOUR works, and deeds, or Jesus's.
Non stop personal accusations... So all the Scripture I posed is not touched on and you put words in my mouth. I never said I wasnt a sheep, you asked what would happen if I fell short, I replied you then used that reply as if I thought I was not a sheep.
Nice set up.
You seem to have let out what I said here:
That is my proclamation, you asked me a theoritical and I answered,, again my statement was
Nice set up.
You seem to have let out what I said here:
That is my proclamation, you asked me a theoritical and I answered,, again my statement was
If someone chooses to go away from Him they will not remain spotless, if they allow Yahhusa to guide them they will remain spotless.
Jude 1:19-25,These are the ones who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.But you, beloved ones, building yourselves up on your most set-apart belief, praying in the Set-apart Spirit,keep yourselves in the love of Elohim, looking for the compassion of our Master יהושע Messiah unto everlasting life.And show compassion toward some who are doubting, but others save with fear, snatching them out of the fire, hating, even the garment defiled by the flesh..And to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you blameless before the presence of His esteem with exceeding joy,to the only wise Elohim, our Saviour, be esteem and greatness and might and authority, both now and forever. Amĕn.
His guidance His words.
Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”
John/Yahanan 14:26, "But the Comforter – the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you."
John/Yahanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."
John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
Jude 1:19-25,These are the ones who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.But you, beloved ones, building yourselves up on your most set-apart belief, praying in the Set-apart Spirit,keep yourselves in the love of Elohim, looking for the compassion of our Master יהושע Messiah unto everlasting life.And show compassion toward some who are doubting, but others save with fear, snatching them out of the fire, hating, even the garment defiled by the flesh..And to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you blameless before the presence of His esteem with exceeding joy,to the only wise Elohim, our Saviour, be esteem and greatness and might and authority, both now and forever. Amĕn.
His guidance His words.
Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”
John/Yahanan 14:26, "But the Comforter – the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you."
John/Yahanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."
John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
Are you ok? WHAT personal attack?
Nope.
I'm asking what YOU would have to do so that God kicks you out of His family and into hell?
If, as Scripture says, Jesus is in you, and you are in Jesus, how are you no longer in His family? Wherever you go He is with you.
You are starting to sound like sinless perfectionist.
Do you sin?
Nope.
I'm asking what YOU would have to do so that God kicks you out of His family and into hell?
If, as Scripture says, Jesus is in you, and you are in Jesus, how are you no longer in His family? Wherever you go He is with you.
You are starting to sound like sinless perfectionist.
Do you sin?
It's like you did not hear a word I said in post #6,312. In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6 see post #51 from the link below:
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/hebrews-6.211327/page-3#post-5093946
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/hebrews-6.211327/page-3#post-5093946
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Am I ok, yeah im fine, my issue is with how you turn a Bibles discussion into a constant focus on me, what I do has no bearing on what the truth in Scripture is.
Quote
"An ad hominem argument is a personal attack against the source of an argument, rather than against the argument itself. Essentially, this means that ad hominem arguments are used to attack opposing views indirectly, by attacking the individuals or groups that support these views. "
Endure.
Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”
I answed a similar question and you used the theoretical to act like that was my mindset
while ignoring my actual statement, I try not to fall into the same trap twice.
1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."
1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”
You sound like an ad hominem debater, if you can quote where I said ANYTHING about "sinless perfection" please do quote it, if not how about stop the false ad hominem titles.
Quote
"An ad hominem argument is a personal attack against the source of an argument, rather than against the argument itself. Essentially, this means that ad hominem arguments are used to attack opposing views indirectly, by attacking the individuals or groups that support these views. "
Endure.
Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”
I answed a similar question and you used the theoretical to act like that was my mindset
while ignoring my actual statement, I try not to fall into the same trap twice.
1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."
1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”
You sound like an ad hominem debater, if you can quote where I said ANYTHING about "sinless perfection" please do quote it, if not how about stop the false ad hominem titles.
I did read
and reply
No one can escape the defilements of the world JUST by knowing ABOUT Yahshua, if it were olny knowledge as you are saying they would not have "escaped the defilements of the world through"
knowledge is word #G1922 ἐπίγνωσις epignosis (e-piy'-gnō-sis) n.
1. recognition.
2. (by implication) full discernment, acknowledgment.
[from G1921]
KJV: (ac-)knowledge(-ing, - ment)
Root(s): G1921
ἐπίγνωσις
epignōsis
Thayer Definition:
1) precise and correct knowledge
1a) used in the NT of the knowledge of things ethical and divine
anyone who has " "escaped the defilements of the world through" is clean, no one is clean unless they accept and follow Yahshua.
and reply
No one can escape the defilements of the world JUST by knowing ABOUT Yahshua, if it were olny knowledge as you are saying they would not have "escaped the defilements of the world through"
knowledge is word #G1922 ἐπίγνωσις epignosis (e-piy'-gnō-sis) n.
1. recognition.
2. (by implication) full discernment, acknowledgment.
[from G1921]
KJV: (ac-)knowledge(-ing, - ment)
Root(s): G1921
ἐπίγνωσις
epignōsis
Thayer Definition:
1) precise and correct knowledge
1a) used in the NT of the knowledge of things ethical and divine
anyone who has " "escaped the defilements of the world through" is clean, no one is clean unless they accept and follow Yahshua.
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John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."