Who Justifieth the Ungodly
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It's a difficult scripture because Paul says God prepared beforehand the vessels unto honour [that's predestination] and goes on to say HE has borne with longsuffering the vessels fitted for destruction ... it does not say God fitted them for destruction, there is not predestination there.
How does it work?
I don't remember the exact first deliberate lie I told, I do remember how awful I felt, how my tongue seemed to swell twice the size, my face burned red ... everyone KNEW I was lying. you have to learn to lie, practise it. Same with stealing. And even violent crimes have to be learned and practised and planned. People do not generally become murderers in a second. THAT is fitting ourselves for destruction.
It SHOWS it is not predestined because we have to learn to act against our nature.
Sin was not predestined, God foreknew it and so pre-planned mankind's salvation.
How does it work?
I don't remember the exact first deliberate lie I told, I do remember how awful I felt, how my tongue seemed to swell twice the size, my face burned red ... everyone KNEW I was lying. you have to learn to lie, practise it. Same with stealing. And even violent crimes have to be learned and practised and planned. People do not generally become murderers in a second. THAT is fitting ourselves for destruction.
It SHOWS it is not predestined because we have to learn to act against our nature.
Sin was not predestined, God foreknew it and so pre-planned mankind's salvation.
Yes the vessels of mercy are chastened all the time, their entire life, thats a token of Gods Love for them Heb 12:6
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
To your other question, You need to read my posts, I have been discussing that. Can you tell me what my point is in all my posts in this thread ?
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
To your other question, You need to read my posts, I have been discussing that. Can you tell me what my point is in all my posts in this thread ?
You wrote earlier that God's purpose for the vessels of mercy was pure mercy. That's not altogether true. God's purpose is singularly for His glory. The reason He exercises mercy for some and judgment toward others is that all of His attributes may be known. In this way, the KNOWLEDGE of the glory of the Lord will fill the earth. The more that is known of God, the more glorious He appears.
As far as your purpose, it seems you are attempting to show that God's justification of mankind is the basis for salvation, and not the actions of men.
I must say, however, that for someone who purports to know so much about justification, you seem to have great difficulty in answering a simple question concerning it. So I'll try again...when did justification actually take place?
As far as your purpose, it seems you are attempting to show that God's justification of mankind is the basis for salvation, and not the actions of men.
I must say, however, that for someone who purports to know so much about justification, you seem to have great difficulty in answering a simple question concerning it. So I'll try again...when did justification actually take place?
... what has been "established" in this thread is that your erroneous dogma does not align with Scripture.You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error. Your futile attempt to align Scripture to your dogma has failed.
Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
.
I am not "condemning untold BILLIONS of human souls to hell". Those who find themselves cast into the lake of fire have no excuse. When God reaches out, they reject Him ... just as Scripture tells us:
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō = suppress, restrain, hinder] the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
God reaches out and the response of some is to turn from God and go their own way. Mankind rejects God, and God allows people to do that.
Look at what God says in Romans 1:16-17
Romans 1:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein [in the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Those who believe the gospel of Christ do not reject and, according to Rom 1:16, the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation.
I have maintained over and over that it is not faith that saves a person ... it is the Object of faith Who saves each and every man, woman and child who believes.
I believe faith is an inherent part of all mankind which God included in mankind when He created, formed, made Adam ... just as intellect is inherent and our senses are inherent. Mankind either utilizes properly that which God has given him or her ... or mankind does not properly utilize what God has provided.
If faith is utilized properly, God strengthens faith within the person.
If faith is not utilized properly, God does not strengthen faith ...
Continue reading in Romans 1 ... as some folks step further and further away from God, God gives them over (see Rom 1:24; Rom 1:26; Rom 1:28) ... really sad because God has provided all that is needed for mankind to be saved.
Read the verses as written, Evmur:
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
And Scripture tells us faith is not works:
Romans 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
God imputed righteousness to Abraham when Abraham believed what God told him. Those who believe on Him ... God imputes righteousness.
.
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō = suppress, restrain, hinder] the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
God reaches out and the response of some is to turn from God and go their own way. Mankind rejects God, and God allows people to do that.
Look at what God says in Romans 1:16-17
Romans 1:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein [in the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Those who believe the gospel of Christ do not reject and, according to Rom 1:16, the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation.
I have maintained over and over that it is not faith that saves a person ... it is the Object of faith Who saves each and every man, woman and child who believes.
I believe faith is an inherent part of all mankind which God included in mankind when He created, formed, made Adam ... just as intellect is inherent and our senses are inherent. Mankind either utilizes properly that which God has given him or her ... or mankind does not properly utilize what God has provided.
If faith is utilized properly, God strengthens faith within the person.
If faith is not utilized properly, God does not strengthen faith ...
Continue reading in Romans 1 ... as some folks step further and further away from God, God gives them over (see Rom 1:24; Rom 1:26; Rom 1:28) ... really sad because God has provided all that is needed for mankind to be saved.
Read the verses as written, Evmur:
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
And Scripture tells us faith is not works:
Romans 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
God imputed righteousness to Abraham when Abraham believed what God told him. Those who believe on Him ... God imputes righteousness.
.
if your doctrine were correct God is not to blame for billions of souls being in hell YOU are because you did not reach them. They never heard the gospel so they could not exercise the faith you claim they have ... you are to blame.
... you do not even seem to care, what's billions of precious human souls to you?
thankfully your doctrine [Arminianism] which is millions of times worse than Calvinism is wrong.
... you do not even seem to care, what's billions of precious human souls to you?
thankfully your doctrine [Arminianism] which is millions of times worse than Calvinism is wrong.
... what has been "established" in this thread is that your erroneous dogma does not align with Scripture.You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error. Your futile attempt to align Scripture to your dogma has failed.
Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
.