Government and Christian (Romans 13)

[Locoponydirtman]

I think that i like the idea of Christian nationalism. A nation that identifies as Christian and politicians that know they are beholden to Christ.

 

[NightTwister]

The Preamble is part of the Constitution.

The Supreme Court says otherwise.

 

[Cameron143]

I don't find unalienable rights in scripture as a reason to overthrow a government leader put there by God. Certainly when Paul wrote the letter to the Romans the government was much worse than anything England did, and I missed the part where he told us to overthrow Rome.

You are missing the point. Employees of the people aren’t the government. The people are.
Unalienable rights, if you believe they exist, are a product of natural law...that is, follow from creation.

 

[Cameron143]

The Supreme Court says otherwise.

The Supreme Court said separate but equal was constitutional at one point. Do you have a reference for that decision?

 

[Gojira]

That's your take, and that's fine. But if the people are the government, then those who oppose the people are the ones who are opposing God and the commandment you hold to.

Someone gets it!

The political ignorance within the Body of Christ is painfully amazing to me, and is part of the reason for the rise of the communo-fascist Left in the west.

 

[NightTwister]

The Supreme Court said separate but equal was constitutional at one point. Do you have a reference for that decision?

Ironically, Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905)
"The United States does not derive any of its substantive powers from the Preamble of the Constitution. It cannot exert any power to secure the declared objects of the Constitution unless, apart from the Preamble, such power be found in, or can properly be implied from, some express delegation in the instrument."

 

[NightTwister]

You are missing the point. Employees of the people aren’t the government. The people are.
Unalienable rights, if you believe they exist, are a product of natural law...that is, follow from creation.

I'm not missing the point. I get your point. I disagree with your usage of it.

 

[Gojira]

Ironically, Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905)
"The United States does not derive any of its substantive powers from the Preamble of the Constitution. It cannot exert any power to secure the declared objects of the Constitution unless, apart from the Preamble, such power be found in, or can properly be implied from, some express delegation in the instrument."

It is a foundational principle of the nation, the philosophy behind the constitution.

Good gracious.

As for ancient Israel, it was under judgment. No revolt ever would have worked because it would have been in rebellion against God's will for the nation. In fact, instead of independence from Rome, God sacked their capitol city. The nation was under judgment.

Bad example.

 

[Cameron143]

Ironically, Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905)
"The United States does not derive any of its substantive powers from the Preamble of the Constitution. It cannot exert any power to secure the declared objects of the Constitution unless, apart from the Preamble, such power be found in, or can properly be implied from, some express delegation in the instrument."

Thanks

 

[NightTwister]

It is a foundational principle of the nation, the philosophy behind the constitution.

Good gracious.

As for ancient Israel, it was under judgment. No revolt ever would have worked because it would have been in rebellion against God's will for the nation. In fact, instead of independence from Rome, God sacked their capitol city. The nation was under judgment.

Bad example.

Excellent example, actually. Who did God send to sack Rome? It wasn't Christians. I prefer to let scripture speak for itself rather than interpreting it through the eyes of events that happened after it was written. Lots of false religions have been created that way.

 

[Bruce_Leiter]

Should Christians be PROTESTING the government or rising up against it? I see the government worldwide is always terrible, but the Bible seems to be saying we shouldn't rise up against it:

Romans 13:2
Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

I don't know if there is a line to be drawn in the sand in the case of Nazi Germany, I don't see a line drawn in the New Testament.....

I for sure don't want judgment on myself so I would not rise up against the government, what about you? I ask because I see Christians be very political at times even taking to the streets to protest.

If the government does something that clearly violates the truth of the Bible by requiring sin in my life, I must disobey. But any other circumstance requires obedience.

 

[tourist]

cut

Paste.

 

[Gojira]

Excellent example, actually. Who did God send to sack Rome? It wasn't Christians. I prefer to let scripture speak for itself rather than interpreting it through the eyes of events that happened after it was written. Lots of false religions have been created that way.

And God judged Babylon too, after using them to subjugate Israel. So what's your point?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Should Christians be PROTESTING the government or rising up against it? I see the government worldwide is always terrible, but the Bible seems to be saying we shouldn't rise up against it:

Romans 13:2
Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

I don't know if there is a line to be drawn in the sand in the case of Nazi Germany, I don't see a line drawn in the New Testament.....

I for sure don't want judgment on myself so I would not rise up against the government, what about you? I ask because I see Christians be very political at times even taking to the streets to protest.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a German pastor. When WW2 broke out, he was in the US for a pastor's conference. His colleagues begged him to stay but he decided that he needed to go back to Germany and do what he can to thwart the Nazi war machine. He joined the German resistance and even took part in a plot to have Hitler assassinated. The group got found out, including him and was arrested. He was hanged 4 days before the war ended.

What did I learn from that? He was close to God and I don't think he ever lost his salvation. When he was in prison, he wrote some of his greatest work. But like, Moses who never got to step foot on the promised land and enjoy it, Bonhoeffer never got to see the war end and enjoy a Nazi-free Germany (sure it was divided up into East and West Germany for a time, but God might have kept him alive in the 1990s when it was reunified for him to see that as well).

So I'm just going to let God deal with our governments and trust Him through it all. He already told us what is going to happen, so the best thing to do is not get in God's way.

 

[Adstar]

Should Christians be PROTESTING the government or rising up against it? I see the government worldwide is always terrible, but the Bible seems to be saying we shouldn't rise up against it:

Protesting is not the same as rising up.. Christians should always be prepared to put forward their Christian view to an authority that is not leading their people under the principles of Christianity.. So protesting is what Christians should get involved in as a kind of preaching / sharing the will of God to the authority..

But rising up against the Authority is not what Christians should do.. We should live as Christians even if that will end up making us criminals in the eyes of the worldly authority that rules over us.. If we have to face persecution then so be it.. Gods will be done.. But irrespective of a state of freedom or a state of persecution we should live as Christians no matter what..

 

[ResidentAlien]

Life in the US is different than the days when the New Testament was written. We have freedom to assemble peaceably, to campaign for the candidates of our choosing and to vote for them. The problems come when Christians forget they're Christians first and start letting politics rule them. This is how you end up with Christian nationalist nut cases like this.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Excellent example, actually. Who did God send to sack Rome? It wasn't Christians. I prefer to let scripture speak for itself rather than interpreting it through the eyes of events that happened after it was written. Lots of false religions have been created that way.

That depends on which time you are refering to, the visigoths in 410, who were arian or in 1527 when Charles the 5th sacked rome.

 

[NightTwister]

That depends on which time you are refering to, the visigoths in 410, who were arian or in 1527 when Charles the 5th sacked rome.

Well, actually I meant Jerusalem (70 AD), but you get the idea.