Under Law or Under Grace

[evyaniy]

Maybe not a part of the commonwealth of Israel, but a part of the Israel of YAH.

Galatians 6

14 But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Adonai Yeshua the Messiah, through Whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For in Messiah Yeshua neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 As many as walk by this rule, peace and mercy be on them, and on the Israel of EL(Theos, Elohim, YAH, God).

The verses are apropos to the subject as well as these.

Romans 10

“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart;” that is, the word of faith which we proclaim: 9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Yeshua is Adonai and believe in your heart that EL(Theos, Elohim, YAH, God) raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile; for the same Adonai over all is rich to all who call on Him. 13 For, “Whoever will call on the Name of the Adonai will be saved.”

 

[JacobMartinMertens]

The thing is, from my experience, the issue is already often muddled, so it is important to keep things on topic and concise. Without this, such a discussion is easily derailed. The arguments of the "Torah observant" need to be addressed with perfect clarity, or else the entire effort is a waste.

I used to say that I am Torah Observant. Things changed for me though when I was told that it is impossible to be a convert. I do believe in Jesus. But I was not born Jewish. I was born a Gentile. So, I am a Gentile. I realize that Israel has a new covenant. I used to call myself a new covenant believer, but I think that I should not do so anymore. The new covenant is for Israel, not the Gentiles. But Paul wrote of the new covenant to the Corinthians in both of his letters that are found in the Bible.

I think that I can say that I agree with what you are saying here.

 

[evyaniy]

The thing is, from my experience, the issue is already often muddled, so it is important to keep things on topic and concise. Without this, such a discussion is easily derailed. The arguments of the "Torah observant" need to be addressed with perfect clarity, or else the entire effort is a waste.

It depends on what you mean by "Torah observant" then. Because being fully Torah observant was never possible except by the Man Whom the Torah is all about. He had to offer His life as a Sacrifice to save us to be fully Torah observant. So what does Torah observant mean in today's context for believers?

 

[JacobMartinMertens]

The verses are apropos to the subject as well as these.

Romans 10

“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart;” that is, the word of faith which we proclaim: 9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Yeshua is Adonai and believe in your heart that EL(Theos, Elohim, YAH, God) raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile; for the same Adonai over all is rich to all who call on Him. 13 For, “Whoever will call on the Name of the Adonai will be saved.”

The word translated as God here is the Greek word theos. θεός

 

[evyaniy]

I used to say that I am Torah Observant. Things changed for me though when I was told that it is impossible to be a convert. I do believe in Jesus. But I was not born Jewish. I was born a Gentile. So, I am a Gentile. I realize that Israel has a new covenant. I used to call myself a new covenant believer, but I think that I should not do so anymore. The new covenant is for Israel, not the Gentiles. But Paul wrote of the new covenant to the Corinthians in both of his letters that are found in the Bible.

I think that I can say that I agree with what you are saying here.

As shown in the verses above, the distinction between Jew and Gentile is eliminated in Messiah for believers. We have become one through faith in Him.

 

[turbosixx]

For anyone being harassed by "Torah observant" Christians, or who has legitimate questions about whether to serve by the Torah:

1. The Law has jurisdiction only over the living Jew (Gentiles never were under Law but were "without the Law")--and, since believers share in Christ's death and resurrection, the Law, Itself, commands the release of the Jewish believers from their obligation to serve God by the means of the Law (the Rabbis agree with Paul--both came from the Pharisaic tradition.)

2. Gentile Christians who do not have the Law can qualify as doers of the Law.
For this reason, for Christians to distinguish themselves from other Christians with the label "Torah observant" can infer a false accusation that everyone else is "lawless": God Himself teaches us how to love one another, writing His Laws on our hearts and minds, which love fulfills the Law, so, Gentiles who walk after the Spirit, not after the flesh, bear the fruit of the Spirit against which there can be no Law.
Therefore, it is an error to accuse those who do not serve by the Law, but by Grace, of "lawlessness".

3. "Why, in Acts, did Paul prove he walked orderly and kept the Law?"
i. He did keep the Law:
a. His dying to the Law, not going back to It, was his living by the Law, since the Law, Itself, commands his freedom from the Law (to return to the Law would have been "illegal")
b. By the Spirit writing God's Law on his heart, he kept the righteous requirement of the Law
ii. Paul became a Jew to win Jewish souls to God--it would've been inopportune to explain his doctrine to the Jewish audience in Jerusalem, since there were undoubtedly countless false Jewish brothers, and plenty of Jewish onlookers.
iii. Jesus said taking vows was of the evil one, so when Paul takes vows, it must be artificial, for the sake of his Jewish audience, not something being done in seriousness before God, since vows are an affront to God. Jesus said to be shrewd as serpents and harmless as doves--Paul was being deceptive, but not harming anyone, just trying to do his best to not cause anyone to stumble at the Gospel.
iv. If it was not true that he taught Jewish believers they weren't obligated to serve by Torah, how did the Jews in Jerusalem get that impression?

This is my current understanding. No one today is under the law (of Moses) but Christians are under the law of Christ (grace). I feel Paul makes it clear here.

1 Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

 

[evyaniy]

The word translated as God here is the Greek word theos. θεός

Right. and EL is singular for God or Theos in Hebrew. Elohim is both singular and plural. YAH is the short form of His Name. God is of Germanic origin.

 

[romans113336]

I used to say that I am Torah Observant. Things changed for me though when I was told that it is impossible to be a convert. I do believe in Jesus. But I was not born Jewish. I was born a Gentile. So, I am a Gentile. I realize that Israel has a new covenant. I used to call myself a new covenant believer, but I think that I should not do so anymore. The new covenant is for Israel, not the Gentiles. But Paul wrote of the new covenant to the Corinthians in both of his letters that are found in the Bible.

I think that I can say that I agree with what you are saying here.

I didn't realize that you were actually affected personally by this.

All Christians who follow the Spirit's Law are deemed "doers of the Law" (Ro 2:14, 26, 27), so it is OK to call yourself that lol

There is no reason to convert to Judaism--you're a child of God through faith in Christ. The Jews were told "You are children of the LORD" (Dt 14:1), but, afterward, because of their defect, they were no longer God's children (Dt 32:5), because they chose another god (Dt 32:21), so Hosea says "Not My People". They are not God's People today--unbelieving Jews aren't.

Isaiah 42:6
“I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations...

So, the nations have a Covenant through the figure here, it seems.

Also, Ephesians says Gentiles are part of the commonwealth of Israel.

So, even if someone argued "Only Israel has the New Covenant", that's fine: the believing Gentiles are part of the commonwealth of Israel.

 

[romans113336]

It depends on what you mean by "Torah observant" then. Because being fully Torah observant was never possible except by the Man Whom the Torah is all about. He had to offer His life as a Sacrifice to save us to be fully Torah observant. So what does Torah observant mean in today's context for believers?

I put quotation marks on the label--meaning that I'm just using their language they use about themselves, not that I agree with them that they are "Torah observant".

 

[JacobMartinMertens]

As shown in the verses above, the distinction between Jew and Gentile is eliminated in Messiah for believers. We have become one through faith in Him.

There is no distinction between Jew and Greek in Him.

Romans 10:12 NASB20 - For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

Galatians 3:28 NASB20 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11 NASB20 - [a renewal] in which there is no [distinction between] Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, [and] free, but Christ is all, and in all.

We are, all together, one body in Christ.

Romans 12:4-5 NASB20 - For just as we have many parts in one body and all the body's parts do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually parts of one another.

1 Corinthians 10:17 NASB20 - Since there is one loaf, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one loaf.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13, 20 NASB20 - For just as the body is one and [yet] has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. ... But now there are many parts, but one body.

Ephesians 2:16 NASB20 - and that He might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the hostility.

Ephesians 4:4 NASB20 - [There is] one body and one Spirit, just as you also were called in one hope of your calling;

Colossians 3:15 NASB20 - Let the peace of Christ, to which you were indeed called in one body, rule in your hearts; and be thankful.

 

[JacobMartinMertens]

Right. and EL is singular for God or Theos in Hebrew. Elohim is both singular and plural. YAH is the short form of His Name. God is of Germanic origin.

Should the singular be El or Elohei or Elohay?

 

[Truthnightmare]

I didn't realize that you were actually affected personally by this.

All Christians who follow the Spirit's Law are deemed "doers of the Law" (Ro 2:14, 26, 27), so it is OK to call yourself that lol

There is no reason to convert to Judaism--you're a child of God through faith in Christ. The Jews were told "You are children of the LORD" (Dt 14:1), but, afterward, because of their defect, they were no longer God's children (Dt 32:5), because they chose another god (Dt 32:21), so Hosea says "Not My People". They are not God's People today--unbelieving Jews aren't.

Isaiah 42:6
“I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations...

So, the nations have a Covenant through the figure here, it seems.

Also, Ephesians says Gentiles are part of the commonwealth of Israel.

So, even if someone argued "Only Israel has the New Covenant", that's fine: the believing Gentiles are part of the commonwealth of Israel.

The Jews were told "You are children of the LORD" (Dt 14:1), but, afterward, because of their defect, they were no longer God's children (Dt 32:5), because they chose another god (Dt 32:21)

Wasn’t the Lord speaking to Israel?

 

[romans113336]

Wasn’t the Lord speaking to Israel?

I don't get into "Jew refers to those from Judea", etc, etc, I'm using the term colloquially.

The point is, briefly: stop trying to be special by being "Jewish", or "Israelite", or what ever.
There is no need for it.

 

[romans113336]

Wasn’t the Lord speaking to Israel?

Oh, I'm sorry. I think you meant in Hosea 1?
Yes, He was--yet, Paul, a Benjaminite, says he is included (Ro 9), so I trust his exegesis.

Paul calls himself both a Jew and an Israelite.
If you mean Deuteronomy, remember that if God addresses "Israel", that was before the fracture between North and South. It addressed all the children of Israel. All 12 tribes.

 

[Truthnightmare]

I don't get into "Jew refers to those from Judea", etc, etc, I'm using the term colloquially.

The point is, briefly: stop trying to be special by being "Jewish", or "Israelite", or what ever.
There is no need for it.

I agree…
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus

 

[evyaniy]

I didn't realize that you were actually affected personally by this.

All Christians who follow the Spirit's Law are deemed "doers of the Law" (Ro 2:14, 26, 27), so it is OK to call yourself that lol

There is no reason to convert to Judaism--you're a child of God through faith in Christ. The Jews were told "You are children of the LORD" (Dt 14:1), but, afterward, because of their defect, they were no longer God's children (Dt 32:5), because they chose another god (Dt 32:21), so Hosea says "Not My People". They are not God's People today--unbelieving Jews aren't.

Isaiah 42:6
“I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations...

So, the nations have a Covenant through the figure here, it seems.

Also, Ephesians says Gentiles are part of the commonwealth of Israel.

So, even if someone argued "Only Israel has the New Covenant", that's fine: the believing Gentiles are part of the commonwealth of Israel.

May as well quote the whole passage in Ephesians you refer to since it describes what is being discussed. Awesome explanation in this passage.

Ephesians 2

11 Therefore remember that once you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “uncircumcision” by that which is called “circumcision” (in the flesh, made by hands), 12 that you were at that time separate from Messiah, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without EL in the world. 13 But now in Messiah Yeshua you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Messiah. 14 For He is our peace, Who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the hostility, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man of the two, making peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to EL through the cross, having killed the hostility through it. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and of the household of EL, 20 being built on the foundation of the emissaries and prophets, Messiah Yeshua Himself being the chief cornerstone; 21 in Whom the whole building, fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Adonai; 22 in Whom you also are built together for a habitation of EL in the Spirit.

 

[JacobMartinMertens]

I didn't realize that you were actually affected personally by this.

All Christians who follow the Spirit's Law are deemed "doers of the Law" (Ro 2:14, 26, 27), so it is OK to call yourself that lol

There is no reason to convert to Judaism--you're a child of God through faith in Christ. The Jews were told "You are children of the LORD" (Dt 14:1), but, afterward, because of their defect, they were no longer God's children (Dt 32:5), because they chose another god (Dt 32:21), so Hosea says "Not My People". They are not God's People today--unbelieving Jews aren't.

Isaiah 42:6
“I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations...

So, the nations have a Covenant through the figure here, it seems.

Also, Ephesians says Gentiles are part of the commonwealth of Israel.

So, even if someone argued "Only Israel has the New Covenant", that's fine: the believing Gentiles are part of the commonwealth of Israel.

Isaiah 42:1-7 NASB20 - "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one [in whom] My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. "He will not cry out nor raise [His voice,] Nor make His voice heard in the street. "A bent reed He will not break [off] And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice. "He will not be disheartened or crushed Until He has established justice on the earth; And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law." This is what God the LORD says, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk in it: "I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations, To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon And those who dwell in darkness from the prison.

In Ephesians Paul writes to the Gentiles. Depending on what translation you read it reads differently.

Ephesians 2:12 NASB20 - [remember] that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

 

[evyaniy]

Should the singular be El or Elohei or Elohay?

What do you suggest is the most accurate way of saying God in a Hebrew transliteration?

 

[romans113336]

Isaiah 42:1-7 NASB20 - "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one [in whom] My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. "He will not cry out nor raise [His voice,] Nor make His voice heard in the street. "A bent reed He will not break [off] And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice. "He will not be disheartened or crushed Until He has established justice on the earth; And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law." This is what God the LORD says, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk in it: "I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations, To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon And those who dwell in darkness from the prison.

In Ephesians Paul writes to the Gentiles. Depending on what translation you read it reads differently.

Ephesians 2:12 NASB20 - [remember] that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Right, so, you aren't worried that you're not a partaker in Christ's work, then, right?

 

[JacobMartinMertens]

What do you suggest is the most accurate way of saying God in a Hebrew transliteration?

Either Elohei or Elohay. I don't know why people say El. I am open to learning about it. El is seen as the singular for the word God from Elohiym, the plural meaning Gods.