The misunderstood Book of James & parsing the covenants/dispensations.

[GRACE_ambassador]

4. We naturally use many principles of logic, without realizing it, when we read. We use it, to a fair degree, just naturally. So if we're already using logic to interpret this scripture which God built upon logic... then maybe we can sort through difficult passages even BETTER if we make some proactive study of logic, and employ this logic more carefully.

Amazing! So, when I wrote # 6 in Bible study Rules...:

The Best "Interpretive" Commentary On The Bible Is :​

The BIBLE Itself!​

​

NEVER ever interpret The Many Plain Scriptures by the "few"​

difficult verses, But, ALWAYS Always Interpret the few​

Obscure/Difficult/Dubious verses By ALL Of The MANY Plain ​

and Clear Passages ( Rule # 5 ) Of God’s Pure And Holy Word!​

...I actually did not "have Scriptures" per se, but, I did have, about
The Bible, as 'A Whole', is what you are employing as:

intrinsic [ natural use of ] logic of Scriptures, from God, The Master Logician?

​

Sound about right?

Amen.

 

[maxwel]

Amazing! So, when I wrote # 6 in Bible study Rules...:

The Best "Interpretive" Commentary On The Bible Is :​

The BIBLE Itself!​

​

NEVER ever interpret The Many Plain Scriptures by the "few"​

difficult verses, But, ALWAYS Always Interpret the few​

Obscure/Difficult/Dubious verses By ALL Of The MANY Plain ​

and Clear Passages ( Rule # 5 ) Of God’s Pure And Holy Word!​

...I actually did not "have Scriptures" per se, but, I did have, about
The Bible, as 'A Whole', is what you are employing as:

intrinsic [ natural use of ] logic of Scriptures, from God, The Master Logician?

​

Sound about right?

Amen.

"Sound about right?"

Yes.


1- What you're dealing with there is really a basic fundamental of learning... how all knowledge is constructed.
2- We interpret what is known (clear) by what is uknown (unclear) because we can do no other.
(We can do other, but it is irrational, and ends up with nonsense.)
3- This is how all knowledge, in all fields is built up... this is even how you learned to speak, and read.
4- This principle is IMPLICIT in scripture, but there are also a few verses that talk about it a bit more directly.

.

 

[rogerg]

Not only is logic necessary to create language...

But every principle of interpretation you DO believe in...
requires you to use principles of logic.



Random Thoughts...
- You cannot read without using principles of logic.
- You cannot write without using principles of logic.
- You cannot speak without using principles of logic.
- You cannot interpret scripture without using principles of logic.
- You cannot compare verses without using principles of logic.
- You cannot teach without using principles of logic.
- You cannot even argue with me, that logic isn't important, without using principles of logic to do it.
: )


Take care.

.

It isn't important, wisdom is important but spiritual wisdom is a gift given by God. Were it dependent upon man's logic, then yes, but my point is that it isn't by man.

What do you understand these verses to mean?

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[maxwel]

It isn't important, wisdom is important but spiritual wisdom is a gift given by God. Were it dependent upon man's logic, then yes, but my point is that it isn't by man.

What do you understand these verses to mean?

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Rogerg,
Without USING basic principles of logic, you could neither talk to me, nor question me.

You are literally using logic, while denying logic.

One last thought.
Most theologians believe the rational mind (ability to think logically) is a part of the Imago Dei, the image of God... the special thing God put into man, and not into any other creatures.
Something to think about.

I think you're a very nice person, and a genuinely good person, but it's probably time we wrap this up.
God Bless, and feel free to message me privately any time.

.

 

[rogerg]

Rogerg,
Without USING basic principles of logic, you could neither talk to me, nor question me.

You are literally using logic, while denying logic.

One last thought.
Most theologians believe the rational mind (ability to think logically) is a part of the Imago Dei, the image of God... the special thing God put into man, and not into any other creatures.
Something to think about.

I think you're a very nice person, and a genuinely good person, but it's probably time we wrap this up.
God Bless, and feel free to message me privately any time.

.

Okay we'll wrap it up but I'll leave you with this: spiritual wisdom is not a function of logic as the verse that in included tells us.
Ponder this: do you think a baby, or a mentally incapacitated person can be saved?

 

[Nehemiah6]

"And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him,Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law"

Actually you are quite mistaken. Following this Paul was advised to appease the Torah observant Jews as follows in that chapter, and the end result was that Paul was nearly killed: 30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut. 31 And as they went about to kill him, tidings came unto the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar. 32 Who immediately took soldiers and centurions, and ran down unto them: and when they saw the chief captain and the soldiers, they left beating of Paul.

Paul should not have tried to appease those Jews. And later on he roundly condemned the Judaizers in Galatians. Even though he says that to the Jews I became a Jew, he totally rejected Judaism. Peter was slower to do so. But James was DEFINITELY NOT including unsaved Jews in his epistle, even though James was trying to find a middle ground.

 

[maxwel]

Okay we'll wrap it up but I'll leave you with this: spiritual wisdom is not a function of logic as the verse that in included tells us.
Ponder this: do you think a baby, or a mentally incapacitated person can be saved?

I think the problem may be that we still aren't clear enough on what logic is.

Logic is not equal to wisdom.
Logic does not supercede wisdom in moral worth.
But neither wisdom, nor moral worth, can even be comprehended without a rational (logical) mind to think about them.

The rational mind (logical mind) is necessary to ENGAGE with both the world and ideas.
If we didn't have a rational mind, we simply couldn't discuss any of these things, or think about them.
Without a rational (logical) mind, we would be like a car without an engine... we simply couldn't function.

The rational mind (logical mind) is an important component of what it is to be a human... God made us this way, with these abilities to think rationally... so we CAN learn wisdom, and so we CAN read scripture, and so we CAN engage in things like prayer and evangelism.



The rational (logical) mind does not stand in opposition to wisdom....
but it is kind of like an operating system, a core component which must exist in us so that we can think about wisdom.
That is why God created us this way.... with a rational mind.



Please send me a private message if you want to continue.

God Bless.

 

[rogerg]

I think the problem may be that we still aren't clear enough on what logic is.

Logic is not equal to wisdom.
Logic does not supercede wisdom in moral worth.
But neither wisdom, nor moral worth, can even be comprehended without a rational (logical) mind to think about them.

The rational mind (logical mind) is necessary to ENGAGE with both the world and ideas.
If we didn't have a rational mind, we simply couldn't discuss any of these things, or think about them.
Without a rational (logical) mind, we would be like a car without an engine... we simply couldn't function.

The rational mind (logical mind) is an important component of what it is to be a human... God made us this way, with these abilities to think rationally... so we CAN learn wisdom, and so we CAN read scripture, and so we CAN engage in things like prayer and evangelism.



The rational (logical) mind does not stand in opposition to wisdom....
but it is kind of like an operating system, a core component which must exist in us so that we can think about wisdom.
That is why God created us this way.... with a rational mind.



Please send me a private message if you want to continue.

God Bless.

In the worldly realm, yes, but in the spiritual realm, it is spiritual wisdom (as a gift) that brings forth the logic that justifies itself, however, worldly logic can't bring forth spiritual wisdom.

 

[maxwel]

In the worldly realm, yes, but in the spiritual realm, it is spiritual wisdom (as a gift) that brings forth the logic that justifies itself, however, worldly logic can't bring forth spiritual wisdom.

Rogerg, that is a misunderstanding of logic.

There is no such thing as a distinction between "spiritual logic" and "worldly logic."
Logic is just logic.
Every page of scripture show's God using logic.
Logic is just logic.

A lot of nice Christians have formed an incorrect understanding of logic, through either the worldly claims of the Godless intellectuals, confusing nonsense in the media, the preaching of poorly informed pastors, or through too much Star Trek.

LOGIC Is NOT:
- Logic IS NOT some Godless pagan thing used by lost people to fight Christianity.
- Logic IS NOT not a tool for the carnal to avoid spiritual things.
- Logic DOES NOT belong to the domain of the lost world, and it never has... when the lost make this claim, they are lying.
- Logic DOES NOT belong merely to the material world, as it is not a material thing, and it is a universal principal which applies to all domains.

LOGIC IS:
Formal Logic is a NATURAL process for determining TRUTH (Which God loves) and it's based in the nature of EXISTENCE (which God created).
- It applies equally to all things in determining truth.
- It's principles are found through scripture.
- God, in scripture, never deviates from using logical principles... because God always speaks the truth.

.
Maybe this will clarify things:
1. An improper definition of logic would lead me to agree with ALL YOUR ARGUMENTS.
2. But a proper definition of logic would leave me with some unavoidable oppositions.


That's all for tonight.
: )

 

[rogerg]

There is no such thing as a distinction between "spiritual logic" and "worldly logic."
Logic is just logic.
Every page of scripture show's God using logic.
Logic is just logic.

I don't think that I said spiritual logic, I believe I said spiritual wisdom. The logic in both cases is worldly.
The question is of which one comes first, the wisdom or the logic? To know things spiritual,
wisdom must first be given to someone, and from that, the logic that justifies/supports/clarifies it and is as a result of it, can be understood by those to whom the wisdom was given. Per the verses I provided earlier, we are informed that the reverse of that is neither possible nor correct.

LOGIC IS:
Formal Logic is a NATURAL process for determining TRUTH (Which God loves) and it's based in the nature of EXISTENCE (which God created).
- It applies equally to all things in determining truth.
- It's principles are found through scripture.
- God, in scripture, never deviates from using logical principles... because God always speaks the truth.

Depending upon what you exactly mean by truth, I would suggest that spiritual truth (or wisdom)
cannot be found through anyone's use of worldly logic.
Again, it's kind of the chicken versus the egg situation. I say that a true logic - logic that can correctly rationalize things spiritual - can
only come out of or from spiritual wisdom, which therefore must be given first to someone; that is, for them, logic does not precede spiritual wisdom. The logic of it becomes evident to them after the wisdom is given, not before - wisdom spawns the logic, but not the reverse. Until that happens, no matter how many times the logic is explained to them, they will never be able to grasp it nor accept/believe where it leads.
In the Bible we can see that God didn't conform to logic, instead, logic conformed to Him and to His wisdom.
Yup, I'm logging off now too. Thanks for the discussion - enjoyed it.
Later.

 

[Niki7]

If you can post another scripture anywhere in the Bible where the term “twelve tribes“ is a reference to Christians, maybe I’ll change my mind.

I’ll wait.

OK so you are a diehard rejector of the fact that these people are called BRETHERN

That term is never applied to unbelieving Jews

I actually do not care about your personal beliefs having read numerous of your posts BUT I do care about truth and accurate interpretation of scripture

The fact that the term brethren is used in the greeting just SCREAMS Christian

But you believe what you want. The onus to try and make people believe we have a non-believer audience being called brethren is on you

1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations:
Greetings.
Trials and Temptations
2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters,[a] whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

now tell me what faith is being addressed above

It honestly could not be more obvious that this book is addressed to Jewish believers found within the 12 tribes

smh

 

[Magenta]

The term "brethren" does not always mean Christian in the NT. Sometimes it simply means kinsmen. Notice in James 5:19-20, some who James calls "brethren" need to have their souls saved.

19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

James is a Jewish epistle with a Jewish audience, the twelve tribes. Students of scripture have never been successful with making James a Christian epistle. They've always had to reason away the text and cut the sides off the square pegs to make it fit the round hole. Luther had such a tough time trying to make it mesh with Paul's epistles, he downgraded it to subcanonical status and called it a "right strawy epistle" stating that one day he'd light his stove with it's pages.

The book of James can be very frustrating unless you do one of two things.
1. Force it to conform to Christian doctrine through crafty reasoning and sly exposition.
2. Understand it's intended Jewish audience and Jewish content for God's physical kingdom people.

James 5:19-20 plus Proverbs 10:2b

 

[John146]

OK so you are a diehard rejector of the fact that these people are called BRETHERN

The Jews are the brethren of James. Paul calls his fellow unsaved Jews his brethren. It is brethren according to the flesh.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

The Jews are the brethren of James. Paul calls his fellow unsaved Jews his brethren. It is brethren according to the flesh.

This is Also Confirmed by Ananias [ who protested to The Lord, believing Saul was still "the enemy" ], before Saul was baptized in 'water' for the remission of his sins," eh?:

Act_9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and​

putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that​

appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou​

mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.​

​

Act_22:13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul,​

receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.​

Now notice Ananias, still believing he was dealing with a "lost Jewish brother":

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and​

wash away thy sins, calling on The Name of the Lord.​

​

Of course, that was in obedience to the "commands of Christ," that Ananias
learned from the twelve, in the previous dispensation of covenants and law,
in prophecy, and must be:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

The Current "Dispensation Of Mystery and Grace" that God Has for all
the brethren 'members' of The Body Of Christ, Today!

Amen.

 

[Niki7]

The Jews are the brethren of James. Paul calls his fellow unsaved Jews his brethren. It is brethren according to the flesh.

Right. And continue to ignore the expression TESTING OF YOUR FAITH.

So handy the way you ignored that part of the intro I posted

Evasiveness is not helping you. Kindly discuss your private beliefs with those who are as wrongly convinced about the book of James as are you. I'm just going to follow the biblical admonition to stop discussing this with someone who follows wrong teaching and teaches others the same.

 

[rogerg]

This is Also Confirmed by Ananias [ who protested to The Lord, believing Saul was still "the enemy" ], before Saul was baptized in 'water' for the remission of his sins," eh?:

Act_9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and​

putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that​

appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou​

mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.​

​

Act_22:13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul,​

receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.​

Now notice Ananias, still believing he was dealing with a "lost Jewish brother":

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and​

wash away thy sins, calling on The Name of the Lord.​

​

Of course, that was in obedience to the "commands of Christ," that Ananias
learned from the twelve, in the previous dispensation of covenants and law,
in prophecy, and must be:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

The Current "Dispensation Of Mystery and Grace" that God Has for all
the brethren 'members' of The Body Of Christ, Today!

Amen.

I must be missing something obvious, and I don't have a dog in this fight, but just for the sake of clarity, it seems to me based upon the below verses, that Ananias was a brother in Christ, GRACE_ambassador. If I am missing something, sorry.

[Act 9:10-15, 17 KJV]
10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord.
11 And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for [one] called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting [his] hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how
14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

 

[rogerg]

This is Also Confirmed by Ananias [ who protested to The Lord, believing Saul was still "the enemy" ], before Saul was baptized in 'water' for the remission of his sins," eh?:

Act_9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and​

putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that​

appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou​

mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.​

​

Act_22:13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul,​

receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.​

Now notice Ananias, still believing he was dealing with a "lost Jewish brother":

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and​

wash away thy sins, calling on The Name of the Lord.​

​

Of course, that was in obedience to the "commands of Christ," that Ananias
learned from the twelve, in the previous dispensation of covenants and law,
in prophecy, and must be:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

The Current "Dispensation Of Mystery and Grace" that God Has for all
the brethren 'members' of The Body Of Christ, Today!

Amen.

Okay, sorry GRACE_ambassador, I think I follow now, you were saying Ananias was a brother in Christ, but he didn't perceive
Saul to be. Somehow, I managed to get it turned around - my mistake.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Okay, sorry GRACE_ambassador, I think I follow now, you were saying Ananias was a brother in Christ, but he didn't perceive
Saul to be. Somehow, I managed to get it turned around - my mistake.

Precious brother, no problem - I've lost track of my errors, where I have gone back
with a double-take to correct my baaad ways

 

[John146]

Right. And continue to ignore the expression TESTING OF YOUR FAITH.

So handy the way you ignored that part of the intro I posted

Evasiveness is not helping you. Kindly discuss your private beliefs with those who are as wrongly convinced about the book of James as are you. I'm just going to follow the biblical admonition to stop discussing this with someone who follows wrong teaching and teaches others the same.

James is encouraging the Jews to have faith in Jesus Christ in their time of trouble, Jacob's trouble.

 

[Niki7]

In chapter 2 of the book of James, v.1, James addresses the recipients as BELIEVERS IN OUR GLORIOUS LORD JESUS CHRIST.

In chapter 5, v. 7-8,he calls the recipients brothers once again and speaks of Jesus return.

The fact the book of James was written to Jewish Christians is as plain as day and why some argue that is it not addressed to Christians is just plain strange.