Educational program for our church

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beaglehound

Guest
#41
#41
Nehemiah6 said:
No. This whole mess began when a "kid" was deemed to be an elder.

As to minimum age, it would certain not be in the 20s or 30s. The minimum age for Jewish elders was 30, but their standards do not necessarily apply to Christians, who need both general and spiritual maturity, as well as a Christian life track record for the elder. So possibly 40s and 50s would be more appropriate.
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A question for you Nehemiah to consider....

I equate eldership with age. The reason being that age often equates with wisdom and life experience.

And it appears you are thinking along those lines.
But eldership does not necessarily translate into wisdom and discernment.

Can a young man in his mid twenties have more wisdom and discernment then a man in his 40s and 50s? He may not have the life experiences of a more elderly man but he may be a lot wiser.

I do not think GreekEagle's eldership having anything to do with the treatment he received regarding the work he did. What is the connection please?
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#42
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
13,797
113
#42
Nehemiah6 said:
No. This whole mess began when a "kid" was deemed to be an elder.
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Wrong. The abuse had nothing whatsoever to do with his eldership. That is purely incidental.

Nehemiah6 said:
As to minimum age, it would certain not be in the 20s or 30s. ….
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Still no Bible, therefore still your irrelevant opinion.
 
Billyd

Billyd

Senior Member
#43
May 8, 2014
5,233
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#43
I believe that the best descriptions of the qualifications for elder and deacon can be found in 1 Timothy 3:1-16. Verse 6 states that he must be mature in the Faith.

1Ti 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, so that he won't become arrogant and fall into the devil's condemnation.
 
G

GreekEagle343

New member
#44
Oct 3, 2023
29
22
3
#44
@Nehemiah6

Thank you for your concerns. Perhaps I can provide a bit of context to the situation at hand in this thread.

The bi-laws of the particular church in question specify that the minimum age for serving as an Elder is 32 years of age. I was nominated for an elder before this time, so the senior leadership of the church waited until after my 32nd birthday to nominate me. After that I was examined by the Elders of the church and vetted for 18 months prior to becoming an elder, to allow them time to examine me to see if I met the other Biblical qualifications for an Elder as laid out in I Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9.

Perhaps Paul's words to a young Timothy might be relevant here?

I Timothy 4:12 - "Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity."

In light of Paul's acceptance of Timothy serving despite his youth, perhaps the second definition of Presbuteros is what Paul has in mind in writing to Timothy.

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Certainly the semantic range of presbuteros involves being elderly in definition 1, definition 2 that you provided uses the term merely as a rank or office.

I'm certainly not above correction, and I willingly stepped down when I was asked to do so. I would hope that what qualifies an elder has more to do with Christlike character and calling than physical age alone.

@Billyd

I think I Timothy 3:6 is relevant, but at the time of my appointment I had been a Christian for 25 years. I hope this helps provide a bit of context?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#45
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#45
beaglehound said:
Can a young man in his mid twenties have more wisdom and discernment then a man in his 40s and 50s? He may not have the life experiences of a more elderly man but he may be a lot wiser.
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That's not the point. An elder would be the spiritual leader of men between 60 and 90 years of age. There is also the question of elders "ruling" or "governing" or "taking oversight" of the flock. So mid twenties would be most inappropriate (a little insulting). There must be genuine respect for spiritual and age-related maturity and wisdom.

Also the NT elders were not graduates of seminaries, but actual church members who had been observed by their fellow-members, and taught within the church by faithful men. The ability to teach Bible truth is also an essential qualification, and that cannot come overnight. Paul calls the younger men (or new converts) "novices" and points out the dangers of appointing novices. I'm just summing up what is already there in the NT.

Personally I believe the apostolic churches would have had elders between 50 and 80, but that is an assumption. Yes Timothy was a young man but by the same token one gets the impression that he was more of of an apostolic "delegate" than an elder (putting things in order). Even Titus was an apostolic "delegate" while appointing elders.
 
B

beaglehound

Guest
#46
#46
Nehemiah6 said:
That's not the point. An elder would be the spiritual leader of men between 60 and 90 years of age. There is also the question of elders "ruling" or "governing" or "taking oversight" of the flock. So mid twenties would be most inappropriate (a little insulting). There must be genuine respect for spiritual and age-related maturity and wisdom.

Also the NT elders were not graduates of seminaries, but actual church members who had been observed by their fellow-members, and taught within the church by faithful men. The ability to teach Bible truth is also an essential qualification, and that cannot come overnight. Paul calls the younger men (or new converts) "novices" and points out the dangers of appointing novices. I'm just summing up what is already there in the NT.

Personally I believe the apostolic churches would have had elders between 50 and 80, but that is an assumption. Yes Timothy was a young man but by the same token one gets the impression that he was more of of an apostolic "delegate" than an elder (putting things in order). Even Titus was an apostolic "delegate" while appointing elders.
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I think GreekEagle343 answered your comments.
Getting back to your original comment ' the whole mess began" when a kid was called to be an elder....
What does that have to with how unfairly treated he was? If he were not an elder how would that have made a difference?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#47
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#47
beaglehound said:
If he were not an elder how would that have made a difference?
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If he were not an elder he would not have been given that heavy responsibility of putting together an education program for the church outreach. Which means that the whole mess would not have happened.
 
maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#48
Apr 18, 2013
9,526
2,608
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#48
GreekEagle343 said:
No. By the time the associate pastor asked to have a digital copy so he could make changes I had copyrighted the program. I respectfully told him that he could use the hard copy of the program as is.
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I've been in the same situation with some of my things.

If you create anything substantial, it's best to have it copy protected.
Even if you want to allow someone "free use", it's still the only way to prevent it from being altered, stolen and published by another entity, or used for some purpose you don't approve of.

Unfortunately, when I create something, even if it's for a specific church or a ministry, I may let them use it for free, but I don't give them ownership of it.
In a perfect world this would be unnecessary.
But here we are.

.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#49
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
13,797
113
#49
Nehemiah6 said:
If he were not an elder he would not have been given that heavy responsibility of putting together an education program for the church outreach. Which means that the whole mess would not have happened.
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Okay, you've stated your armchair-theologian opinion. Now perhaps you can be quiet and notice that this is NOT the Bicker and Debate forum.
 
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beaglehound

Guest
#50
#50
Nehemiah6 said:
If he were not an elder he would not have been given that heavy responsibility of putting together an education program for the church outreach. Which means that the whole mess would not have happened.
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I don't agree with that at all. Sorry. The church saw an opportunity and made use of it. He is obviously highly qualified. You are saying that because he was an elder he was approached and asked. Why would he be obligated to take on the project?
 
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Ted01

Well-known member
#51
May 14, 2022
1,055
447
83
#51
Nehemiah6 said:
If he were not an elder he would not have been given that heavy responsibility of putting together an education program for the church outreach. Which means that the whole mess would not have happened.
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Well, it might not have happened to him... but might well have happened to an older, elder... right?

So, what about those other things that happened in this situation? I think that's what most are discussing...?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#53
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#53
Dino246 said:
Okay, you've stated your armchair-theologian opinion. Now perhaps you can be quiet and notice that this is NOT the Bicker and Debate forum.
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HAHAHAHA:ROFL: Good old Dino. So now its "bicker and debate" when actual Scriptures were presented or interpreted? I will be more than happy to step away now and let you present your conjectures and speculations. I am done with this thread.
 
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Ted01

Well-known member
#54
May 14, 2022
1,055
447
83
#54
Okay... perhaps you're right. In fact, I'd have to agree with you.
So, are you saying that if he weren't an elder, that congregation wouldn't have had another man to fill that open elder slot?

Because that was what my earlier post was geared towards... that the congregation would have had another man in that elder position and asked to perform the same task, right? And all things being equal... would have rejected his proposed educational package and not reimbursed him for his time and effort.

That seem to be the issue at hand...? Not who he is... but what happened.
 
G

GreekEagle343

New member
#55
Oct 3, 2023
29
22
3
#55
Ted01 said:
Okay... perhaps you're right. In fact, I'd have to agree with you.
So, are you saying that if he weren't an elder, that congregation wouldn't have had another man to fill that open elder slot?

Because that was what my earlier post was geared towards... that the congregation would have had another man in that elder position and asked to perform the same task, right? And all things being equal... would have rejected his proposed educational package and not reimbursed him for his time and effort.

That seem to be the issue at hand...? Not who he is... but what happened.
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I can appreciate why anyone might think things would have been different if I were not an elder. To clarify, I as asked to do this project for 3 reasons: 1) to help disciple people in the church, 2) in response to a previous educational project I wrote for the which my pastor said was "spectacular", and 3) because the pastor felt I was the most qualified person for the role.

In this particular instance, I don't believe my role as an elder was a factor in being asked to create an educational curriculum for the church, but rather because I had taught other things previously and they felt I was well suited for the role. I hope that helps?
 
B

beaglehound

Guest
#56
#56
Ted01 said:
Okay... perhaps you're right. In fact, I'd have to agree with you.
So, are you saying that if he weren't an elder, that congregation wouldn't have had another man to fill that open elder slot?

Because that was what my earlier post was geared towards... that the congregation would have had another man in that elder position and asked to perform the same task, right? And all things being equal... would have rejected his proposed educational package and not reimbursed him for his time and effort.

That seem to be the issue at hand...? Not who he is... but what happened.
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Nehemiah has made this a discussion on the qualifications of being an elder which was a digression from the actual discussion. Ted is told that his comment was "pure speculation" I'm not sure Nehemiah is aware that his own comment is pure speculation when he asserts that none of this would have happened if GreekEagle was not appointed elder.
 
T

Ted01

Well-known member
#57
May 14, 2022
1,055
447
83
#57
GreekEagle343 said:
I can appreciate why anyone might think things would have been different if I were not an elder. To clarify, I as asked to do this project for 3 reasons: 1) to help disciple people in the church, 2) in response to a previous educational project I wrote for the which my pastor said was "spectacular", and 3) because the pastor felt I was the most qualified person for the role.

In this particular instance, I don't believe my role as an elder was a factor in being asked to create an educational curriculum for the church, but rather because I had taught other things previously and they felt I was well suited for the role. I hope that helps?
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Thank you for the clarification.
I was kinda' of the mindset that was what the OP was originally about... what had happened, not necessarily who it happened to.

I do hope and pray that God has great things for you ahead.
 
G

GreekEagle343

New member
#58
Oct 3, 2023
29
22
3
#58
maxwel said:
I've been in the same situation with some of my things.

If you create anything substantial, it's best to have it copy protected.
Even if you want to allow someone "free use", it's still the only way to prevent it from being altered, stolen and published by another entity, or used for some purpose you don't approve of.

Unfortunately, when I create something, even if it's for a specific church or a ministry, I may let them use it for free, but I don't give them ownership of it.
In a perfect world this would be unnecessary.
But here we are.

.
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I completely understand on that one. Agree 100%

(I'm curious about your profile picture........is that a pair of glasses intended for a one-eyed despicable me minion? If so that his hilariously awesome.)
 
maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#59
Apr 18, 2013
9,526
2,608
113
#59
GreekEagle343 said:
I completely understand on that one. Agree 100%

(I'm curious about your profile picture........is that a pair of glasses intended for a one-eyed despicable me minion? If so that his hilariously awesome.)
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I'm kind of sensitive about my one giant eyeball.

.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#60
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
13,797
113
#60
Nehemiah6 said:
HAHAHAHA:ROFL: Good old Dino. So now its "bicker and debate" when actual Scriptures were presented or interpreted?
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Except... you didn't... because there aren't any. ;)
 
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