Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[GRACE_ambassador]

Had I died in that condition, I would have gone to hell even though the Lord still loved me!

Precious friend, you do realize, of course that "yo-yo-saved-lost-saved-yo-yo" salvation is not in Scripture?

over the years I've learned how to be skillful in the word of righteousness

If so, then why is it that you have not not yet found God's Eternal Salvation?:

God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Amen. Just wondering...

 

[JimmyTheLock]

"yo-yo-saved-lost-saved-yo-yo" salvation is not in Scripture?

You never heard of the prodigal son?

He was in right standing with his father, left and was dead... and was alive again when he came back.

It's entirely possible for one to get born again and then backslide whether you agree with it or not.... it is however an example of what NOT to do, but I was very young in the Lord and the pastor of the church I got saved in was clueless

If so, then why is it that you have not not yet found God's Eternal Salvation?:

I am in fact a born again child of the Most High God thru Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost, based on God's Word for going on 40 years.... it it's absolutely meaningless to me if you believe that or not!

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

It's entirely possible for one to get born again and then backslide whether you agree with it or not

it's absolutely meaningless to me if you believe that or not!

I Disagree with men's experiences, but, I entirely agree with All of God's
Scriptures About His All-Sufficient BLOOD, and, Because of That, I do not
Deny Any Of His Eternal Salvation Scriptures!:

God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Conclusion: No such "middle-of-the-road" Bible doctrine as men's experiences:

'God has Never known' them ( saved then lost ) that are the ones 'He Has
Always Known' ( Saved Eternally! ) as His Own!
(2 Timothy 2:19 and Ephesians 1:4-6 compared to Matthew 7:21-23), eh?

Amen.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

I Disagree with men's experiences, but, I entirely agree with All of God's
Scriptures About His All-Sufficient BLOOD, and, Because of That, I do not
Deny Any Of His Eternal Salvation Scriptures!:

But, you deny the whole counsel of God which warns Christians of the possibility of losing their salvation... an this is what Cherry Pickers do!

1 Corinthians 9:27
I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Castaway (G0096 in Strong's) = unapproved, rejected, worthless, reprobate.

This is the same greek word used in Romans 1:28 when the Lord turned those over to a reprobate mind who refused retain God in their knowledge and walk with Him.

This means, Paul believed that if he did not control himself and went back to walking after the flesh HE would be unapproved, rejected, worthless, reprobate!

Obviously the Apostle Paul did not believe in "once saved, always saved" aka "eternal security"


Colossians 1:21-23
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven.

*A condition is given here to be righteous before the Lord which is IF we continue in the faith.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.

Jude 1:5,6
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

*If once saved always saved was true, then the Lord would not be speaking thru Jude to put us in remembrance about what happened to those that quit believing (turned their backs on the Lord to live in opposition to Him which is to live in sin).

*If angels having been created perfect turn away from the Lord and be separated from Him forever, we would experience the same. Thankfully, the Lord has provided a way for man to confess and forsake sin in order to receive mercy (see Proverbs 28:13), but if we continue in our sin we will not have mercy due having turned away from the Lord

Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins

*If we knowing and willing continue in sin, Jesus’ sacrifice on the Cross is no longer applicable and there will be no new sacrifice for sin forthcoming other than what Jesus has already done at the Cross. One must cease from sin for the work of Christ to be applicable to them.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

*One must cease from sin for the work of Christ to be applicable to them.

1 Corinthians 6:9,10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:7,8
He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son. (abide In Christ!)
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers (man whores), and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (These things, and all sin, must be confessed and forsaken to avoid going to hell!)

Revelation 9:21
And they did not repent of their murders, or their sorceries, or their sexual immorality, or their thefts

Romans 1:28-32
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

1 Timothy 1:8-11
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Ezekiel 18:26,27
When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Again, when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Ezekiel 18:20 (see Romans 8:13)
The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (see 2 Corinthians 5:15 says….Jesus died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them, and rose again.)

Ezekiel 18:20-24 (see Romans 8:13)
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ezekiel 33:13
When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it

Matthew 10:32,33
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 6:14,15
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

John 15:1,2
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 15:5
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Galatians 6:7,8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

*This indicates that these folks were born again and they had "fallen from grace" because they turn away from trusting in Jesus for their salvation.

 

[DRobinson]

But, you deny the whole counsel of God which warns Christians of the possibility of losing their salvation... an this is what Cherry Pickers do!

1 Corinthians 9:27
I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Castaway (G0096 in Strong's) = unapproved, rejected, worthless, reprobate.

This is the same greek word used in Romans 1:28 when the Lord turned those over to a reprobate mind who refused retain God in their knowledge and walk with Him.

This means, Paul believed that if he did not control himself and went back to walking after the flesh HE would be unapproved, rejected, worthless, reprobate!

Obviously the Apostle Paul did not believe in "once saved, always saved" aka "eternal security"


Colossians 1:21-23
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven.

*A condition is given here to be righteous before the Lord which is IF we continue in the faith.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.

Jude 1:5,6
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

*If once saved always saved was true, then the Lord would not be speaking thru Jude to put us in remembrance about what happened to those that quit believing (turned their backs on the Lord to live in opposition to Him which is to live in sin).

*If angels having been created perfect turn away from the Lord and be separated from Him forever, we would experience the same. Thankfully, the Lord has provided a way for man to confess and forsake sin in order to receive mercy (see Proverbs 28:13), but if we continue in our sin we will not have mercy due having turned away from the Lord

Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins

*If we knowing and willing continue in sin, Jesus’ sacrifice on the Cross is no longer applicable and there will be no new sacrifice for sin forthcoming other than what Jesus has already done at the Cross. One must cease from sin for the work of Christ to be applicable to them.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

*One must cease from sin for the work of Christ to be applicable to them.

1 Corinthians 6:9,10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:7,8
He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son. (abide In Christ!)
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers (man whores), and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (These things, and all sin, must be confessed and forsaken to avoid going to hell!)

Revelation 9:21
And they did not repent of their murders, or their sorceries, or their sexual immorality, or their thefts

Romans 1:28-32
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

1 Timothy 1:8-11
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Ezekiel 18:26,27
When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Again, when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Ezekiel 18:20 (see Romans 8:13)
The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (see 2 Corinthians 5:15 says….Jesus died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them, and rose again.)

Ezekiel 18:20-24 (see Romans 8:13)
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ezekiel 33:13
When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it

Matthew 10:32,33
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 6:14,15
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

John 15:1,2
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 15:5
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Galatians 6:7,8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

*This indicates that these folks were born again and they had "fallen from grace" because they turn away from trusting in Jesus for their salvation.

You keep believing in your works for you eternal salvation if you wish.
I will continue to place my eternal salvation in the hands of Jesus and believe He is strong enough to keep me.
You speak of others not believing Scripture but it is evident you just do not understand what Scripture says.
We will see who God accepts.
You and your works or me and my complete faith in what Jesus did on the cross and the promise he made to all.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

you just do not understand what Scripture says.

The problem here is that you OSAS peoples only believe a handful of happy verses and throw the rest of God's Word in the trash. It's what you Cherry Pickers do!

Of course Jesus paid for sin on the Cross.. but Jesus said in John 15 that those who do not abidfe in Him baring fruit are cut off and thrown in to the fire!

Jesus did not teach the false OSAS doctrines you cherry pickers espouse.

Salvation is only applicable to those that turn away from their sin and walk in the Spirit which is abiding in Christ.

The OSAS peoples like to argue in favor of it being OK to do some sin and still be saved... cause most of the OSAS peoples got some pet sin they don't want to give up, so they gotta remain sin friendly to make themselves feel good 'bout themselves being sinners and not putting on the New Man as scripture instructs Christians to do.

So, I'll try to not snicker at the cherry picker!

 

[DRobinson]

The problem here is that you OSAS peoples only believe a handful of happy verses and throw the rest of God's Word in the trash. It's what you Cherry Pickers do!

Of course Jesus paid for sin on the Cross.. but Jesus said in John 15 that those who do not abidfe in Him baring fruit are cut off and thrown in to the fire!

Jesus did not teach the false OSAS doctrines you cherry pickers espouse.

Salvation is only applicable to those that turn away from their sin and walk in the Spirit which is abiding in Christ.

The OSAS peoples like to argue in favor of it being OK to do some sin and still be saved... cause most of the OSAS peoples got some pet sin they don't want to give up, so they gotta remain sin friendly to make themselves feel good 'bout themselves being sinners and not putting on the New Man as scripture instructs Christians to do.

So, I'll try to not snicker at the cherry picker!
View attachment 256893

Let me ask you a few questions.
Was Peter saved before he denied Jesus?
Did he lose that salvation when he denied Jesus?
Was David saved before he committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed?
Did he lose his salvation when he sinned so greatly?
What sins will cause one to lose salvation?
Another thing. Who gives you the right to make that judgement the "most of the OSAS people got some pet sin they don't want to give up"?
I suppose you are one who claims you never sin or your sin does not cause you to lose your salvation.
Enough of this foolishness with a foolish person.

 

[turbosixx]

Didn't you read the verse I posted that says those saved are kept by the power of God, and not by man? Therefore, anyone who has been saved simply cannot be of those whom Paul is referring to (above), unless, that is, you believe that man's actions and power can override God's. And if you do, that means you don't believe Jesus is the Saviour, but that man is his own saviour. Paul is not saying if they continue, they WILL BE reconciled, but saying THEY HAVE been reconciled in order that they continue in the faith to the end. Continuing in the faith is a result OF having been reconciled; that is, it is reconciliation's effect. So, what do you make of these verses. Do you see "by the power of God" part"?

Yes, those who are saved are kept by the power of God. No one will snatch them out of His hand. However, if they turn from God He is not going to keep them from doing so.
You have changed the conditional if to in order. I looked at several different translations and they all have the conditional IF. I also looked at the Greek words used there. It is the conditional conjunction IF and the word "indeed" adds emphasis. For the word "continue", the usage is (a) I remain, tarry, (b) I remain in, persist in.
Yes, they HAVE BEEN, past tense, reconciled then he says IF YOU continue. Kinda like what Paul says here by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV] 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Again, if we follow Christ God will keep us.

To tell you the truth, Turbosxx, I don't understand how you could choose Co 2:12 to substantiate your position.
Did you read 2:13? Here, I'll post both and highlight the significant portions. The "faith of the operation of God" is in the
genitive case, meaning that it is not the person's faith IN the operation of God, but rather the faith that is OF/WITHIN the operation of God, or said another way, Christ's faith. That is; Christ's faith caused them to be raised - it was/is not by their/our faith. This is substantiated by the next verse that HE quickened together with Him (made alive) when they had been dead. It is apparent that the dead cannot give to themselves, faith.

[Col 2:12-13 KJV]
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Thanks for trying another approach and rewording. I think, not 100%, I understand what you're saying. I see two problems. 1) I disagree with your use of faith. When you say said another way, Christ's faith. That is; Christ's faith caused them to be raised Faith is, Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. We have to have faith because we are not all knowing. Jesus doesn't need faith, He knows everything. Now I would agree Christ's obedience to God caused them to obey the gospel.
2) Our assurance and conviction causes us to act. It was their faith that caused them to obey the gospel. How did they obey the gospel? That's the part you didn't highlight.
12 having been buried with him in baptism, That is what they did to obey the gospel. When Jesus sent out the apostles to add people to His church He told them to make disciples baptizing them in the name of the father, son and HS. Those who believe and are baptized are added to Christ's church. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

Who is God going to punish on the last day? 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction,

What I make of Gal 1:6 is that they as new Christians, and due to that newness, were being confused about doctrine by those who were not saved but who were perverting the gospel of Christ. Paul was correcting /edifying them of the correct doctrine. Since they were not (nor is anyone) saved by what they might do, but instead by Christ's did, because of Christ, their salvation was never in jeopardy.

If their salvation was never in jeopardy, then why is Paul so against them being circumcised? Paul himself circumcised Timothy. It's also a commandment from God for His people.
14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

, you seem to have a problem realizing what a Saviour is and of what He achieved. Instead of trusting in Him, you place your trust in man.

Thanks for trying to point out I have a problem but I wholly trust Jesus. It's man I don't trust. I've seen first had what this false doctrine of OSAS can do. I worked with a guy who was cheating on his wife. I talked to him about it and he said he was saved but he wouldn't have any reward. He left his wife for this other woman and married her.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

Was Peter saved before he denied Jesus?

Yes

Did he lose that salvation when he denied Jesus?

Yes

Was David saved before he committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed?

Yes

Did he lose his salvation when he sinned so greatly?

Yes

What sins will cause one to lose salvation?

All of them... Unless one confesses their sin to the Lord and repents. If we sow to the flesh (sin) we shall of the flesh reap corruption.... to say otherwise is mocking God according to Gal 6:7,8

This is how Peter and David got back in right standing with the Lord... they acknowedged their sin and turned away from it!

When one turns away from the Lord and sins, they must forsake their sin and confess their sin to the Lord in order to be in right standing with the Lord once again according to His Word.

Proverbs 28:13
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Another thing. Who gives you the right to make that judgement the "most of the OSAS people got some pet sin they don't want to give up"?

I've known and still do know many to believe this false doctrine and they ball sin friendly!

There's thing thing about everyone has a right to their own opinion... if you don't like mine, then please don't read my comments and then come barking at me claiming I have no right to have my opinion.

You believe you have a right to your opinion, well so do others.

I suppose you are one who claims you never sin or your sin does not cause you to lose your salvation.
Enough of this foolishness with a foolish person.

I never said I have never sinned in the past or that it were not possible for me to sin in the future.

Currently, I do not willingly or knowingly sin and IF I did it would not be something I knew was sinful and I did it anyway.

If it help you to know... the other day I spilled my ice tea!
This proves that I'm not perfect in the literal sense and I never claimed I was.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes


Yes


Yes


Yes


All of them... Unless one confesses their sin to the Lord and repents. If we sow to the flesh (sin) we shall of the flesh reap corruption.... to say otherwise is mocking God according to Gal 6:7,8

This is how Peter and David got back in right standing with the Lord... they acknowedged their sin and turned away from it!

When one turns away from the Lord and sins, they must forsake their sin and confess their sin to the Lord in order to be in right standing with the Lord once again according to His Word.

Proverbs 28:13
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


I've known and still do know many to believe this false doctrine and they ball sin friendly!

There's thing thing about everyone has a right to their own opinion... if you don't like mine, then please don't read my comments and then come barking at me claiming I have no right to have my opinion.

You believe you have a right to your opinion, well so do others.



I never said I have never sinned in the past or that it were not possible for me to sin in the future.

Currently, I do not willingly or knowingly sin and IF I did it would not be something I knew was sinful and I did it anyway.

If it help you to know... the other day I spilled my ice tea!
This proves that I'm not perfect in the literal sense and I never claimed I was.

You break the commandment to love others as yourself multiple times a day here on this site. I haven't seen any apologies.
You misrepresent people often in your posts,and bearing false witness. I haven't seen any apologies.
You don't acknowledge these things. Could be a number of reasons for that. Have you forfeited your salvation?

 

[JimmyTheLock]

You break the commandment to love others as yourself multiple times a day here on this site. I haven't seen any apologies.
You misrepresent people often in your posts,and bearing false witness. I haven't seen any apologies.
You don't acknowledge these things. Could be a number of reasons for that. Have you forfeited your salvation?

You are welcome to your "opinions"

 

[Jimbone]

everyone is arguing about who had oil and who did not, but, the "entire point" being made was lost.

WHO, was RESPONSIBLE, for having OIL in their Lamps?

WE ARE!

that alone removes OSAS dogma.

if you are the ONE responsible for having OIL, then you are Responsible for Remaining SAVED, by ALWAYS ABIDING in God.

OSAS, is so easy to disprove. that's the third example I've now shown how OSAS is PURE ADULTERATED BALONEY!!

No what is baloney is thinking that YOU get to have some credit for keeping your own salvation. What it boils down to really is pride. That's also why you're wrong, you get NO credit at all, Jesus gets ALL glory, and you seem to want a piece of His glory. Careful. You're also making a works based religion that put's you right in line with the Pharisee. You are selling that Jesus has the power to save people yet He doesn't have the power to keep them. So it's no longer up to Him now, it's all up to us now.

I read NOTHING about this set up anywhere at all, and again I reject this deception with everything I've been given and shown by our POWERFUL God. The idea that it's up to "me" to do what even He can't do, is arrogance on a ridiculous level when you think about it. Your view lowers His power to elevate your own. Why you want to argue the weakness, ignorance, and pointlessness of our God makes no sense to me at all. Who exactly is glorified by what you're teaching here?

 

[JimmyTheLock]

What it boils down to really is pride.

It actually boils down to ... obedience.

Jesus said in John 15 that it's man's responsibility to abide IN CHRIST and those that don't will be cut off and thrown in to the fire.

Now, let's don't be insinuating Jesus is a liar or nuthin... things go badly for those that do that.

As usual though, the OSAS peoples can't understand the Word of the Lord after having been brainwashed by all the false doctrine coming from calvinism and reformed theology wolves.

 

[rogerg]

Multiple parts due to size.

Part 1

Yes, those who are saved are kept by the power of God. No one will snatch them out of His hand. However, if they turn from God He is not going to keep them from doing so.
You have changed the conditional if to in order. I looked at several different translations and they all have the conditional IF. I also looked at the Greek words used there. It is the conditional conjunction IF and the word "indeed" adds emphasis. For the word "continue", the usage is (a) I remain, tarry, (b) I remain in, persist in.
Yes, they HAVE BEEN, past tense, reconciled then he says IF YOU continue. Kinda like what Paul says here by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

What I am saying is that those attributes are from salvation, not causes for salvation. I did not make it an 'in order' out of it (if I understand you correctly). I agree that it is an 'if"; that is, "IF" someone remains faithful and steadfast it is only because they have been saved: those are byproducts of salvation; otherwise, if they don't, then it is because they weren't saved in the first place. It is possible for natural man to believe and demonstrate for a while, yet will eventually fall away because they weren't saved, those truly saved, will not. The attributes of a true Christian come out of being saved, they do not lead to becoming (or remaining saved) - it is impossible for us to do anything that will bring to us salvation, and therefore, impossible for anything that we may do to remove salvation from us. All attributes of a Christian flow from salvation.

"no one will snatch them out of His hand". "no one" means none. We, of ourselves, cannot cause ourselves to be snatched out of God's hands no matter what we might do - no one means no one, not certain ones.

The "believed in vain" means not that their belief was in vain to fall away (speaking about those truly saved), instead, Paul was saying that if it were possible for that gospel which he taught them – that upon which their belief was built - being the object of their belief – to be untrue, then that would make their belief in it vain because God’s power would not be behind it. Paul was essentially saying to them, If the gospel that I preached to you is wrong, by that alone could your belief be in vain. But the gospel Paul preached to them was not wrong, so the object of their belief was true and their belief not in vain. So therefore, as being made true believers in Christ, they could not fall away once belief was imparted to them. Paul was using that construct as a foil to illustrate the permanence and inevitability of their salvation.

Again, if we follow Christ God will keep us.

Not possible – there is no "if" there. Look again at that verse and the verse preceding it. In verse 4, do you see the "an INHERITANCE" and is "RESERVED in heaven” and "for YOU"? Stating that it is an "inheritance", means its beneficiaries have already been established; stating "reserved in heaven" means being already reserved, cannot change; stating "for you" means that there are specific individuals for whom the inheritance was intended and reserved, but which does not include everyone. All those for whom it had been reserved MUST therefore inherit it or Christ's offering must be viewed as being unsuccessful, which it was not. Verse 5 continues verse 4, with the "Who", connecting it back to verse 4. It tells us that the "for you" (of verse 4), will be the "who" (of verse5) and will be "kept" unto their inheritance (which is salvation), solely by God’s power alone - no mention in those verses that identify man as contributing except for being its recipient nor of it being conditional.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Thanks for trying another approach and rewording. I think, not 100%, I understand what you're saying. I see two problems. 1) I disagree with your use of faith. When you say said another way, Christ's faith. That is; Christ's faith caused them to be raised Faith is, Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. We have to have faith because we are not all knowing. Jesus doesn't need faith, He knows everything. Now I would agree Christ's obedience to God caused them to obey the gospel.

2) Our assurance and conviction causes us to act. It was their faith that caused them to obey the gospel. How did they obey the gospel? That's the part you didn't highlight.

12 having been buried with him in baptism, That is what they did to obey the gospel. When Jesus sent out the apostles to add people to His church He told them to make disciples baptizing them in the name of the father, son and HS. Those who believe and are baptized are added to Christ's church. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,



Who is God going to punish on the last day? 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction,

No problem, happy I was able to clarify and sorry for the confusion. Writing isn’t my strong suit.

Christ's faith (with His righteousness) is imputed to those whom He had chosen for salvation given upon their becoming saved/born again through the fruit of the Spirit.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Phl 3:9 KJV]

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The faith of Heb 11:1 had been imputed to them but as a gift from Christ's faith. It is the same thing we see happening to Abraham - Christ's faith was reckoned to him which gave him righteousness. Only Christ's faith has righteousness, man's does not.

[Rom 4:9 KJV]
9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

If true faith can only be given by the Holy Spirit upon becoming born again (as we are told in Gal 5:22), then the acquiring true faith can't be through/by man's doing. Until becoming saved/born again we are spiritually dead in sin and spiritually blind. It is impossible that we produce true faith ourselves. Should we believe that we can do so, or have done so, then by that, it means that we haven't. We first must become saved, from that, all attributes flow but not before then. We may not even immediately realize that we have become saved, but over time our awareness of its presence within us, and its change of us, will grow as we read the Bible comprehend its message, and find its attributes growing within us.

[Eph 2:1 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all
trespasses;

They, of Acts 13:48, believed the gospel because they were chosen to it by God- they were ordained to it.

[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[1Pe 1:20-21 KJV]
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

The "will be saved" is in reference to the salvation of the last day. Salvation occurs in two parts: once during our lives when we become positionally and spiritually saved by God and, 2) on the last day. Notice that the "will be saved" of your verse, is in the future tense, not present tense.

Notice the verses about making disciples does not say they were to save them in order to make of them disciples; instead, that they were only make of them disciples. Becoming saved would have had to happen first, with the making of them disciples building upon that through the revelation to them of the gospel: the two were separate and different occurrences.

 

[rogerg]

Part II

Who is God going to punish on the last day? 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction,

Only God's elect/saved will know God or obey His gospel. Why? Because it was given to them by the Spirit through salvation.

[1Pe 1:2 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

[Rom 1:5-6 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

If their salvation was never in jeopardy, then why is Paul so against them being circumcised? Paul himself circumcised Timothy. It's also a commandment from God for His people.

14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Circumcision was a sign, or symbol, of the covenant that was to come - it was symbolic of the circumcision of the heart which only God can do. Paul was against their belief in the spiritual efficacy and spiritual justification from their being physically circumcised and was unequivocally edifying them otherwise and to not trust in it- that all was already achieved Christ, not by man. And should those who believed that they could be justified by it, then that would mean they were not saved, Christ would be of no value to them, and they were still under bondage of law. Those saved, once edified, would understand and would no longer perceive nor seek physical circumcision if they had. Physical circumcision is okay if viewed only as a symbol of the spiritual, but not as having any spiritual substance of itself.

[Gal 5:1-2 KJV]
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

[Rom 4:11 KJV]
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

[Col 2:11 KJV]
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Thanks for trying to point out I have a problem but I wholly trust Jesus. It's man I don't trust. I've seen first had what this false doctrine of OSAS can do. I worked with a guy who was cheating on his wife. I talked to him about it and he said he was saved but he wouldn't have any reward. He left his wife for this other woman and married her.

I obviously have no way of knowing whether the person you spoke to/about was saved or not - the reward comment doesn't make sense to me. But as poster DRobinson stated in his post of #7247, in which he correctly pointed out that there are those in the Bible who absolutely were saved, yet still committed temporal sin. Don't misunderstand me, as Christians we most definitely are to try to live morally and ethically upright lives to the glory of God and of the gospel, and should we fail to do so, the guilt of that failure will be great - being eternally saved does not eliminate that responsibility from us. But neither will those failures remove salvation, nor mean that we weren't saved. The reason I pointed out about trusting in Jesus alone, and I could be wrong, is that even while you say that you completely trust Him (and quite possibly you do), yet you seem to place a large burden of having to satisfy salvation's requirements upon man. To truly trust Jesus, I suggest that we must trust in Him alone, implicitly, fully, and completely, having no desire to, nor belief that, we ourselves can accomplish any of it - none. The point being that we are saved solely by what Christ did, and not in any way by what we may or may not do. If we are happy, even joyful, to rest completely in Christ's works, we can be sure that God alone gave to us that rest through faith. Being brought into His rest solely as a gift, with no work required nor permitted from us whatsoever, makes Him an exceedingly merciful and gracious God and Father. If we are given a faith that is solely and completely in Christ, in His offering, and in nothing anything else, then by that, through God, we also have been placed into and reside in His rest.

[Heb 4:2-3 KJV]
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

No what is baloney is thinking that YOU get to have some credit for keeping your own salvation. What it boils down to really is pride. That's also why you're wrong, you get NO credit at all, Jesus gets ALL glory, and you seem to want a piece of His glory. Careful. You're also making a works based religion that put's you right in line with the Pharisee. You are selling that Jesus has the power to save people yet He doesn't have the power to keep them. So it's no longer up to Him now, it's all up to us now.

I read NOTHING about this set up anywhere at all, and again I reject this deception with everything I've been given and shown by our POWERFUL God. The idea that it's up to "me" to do what even He can't do, is arrogance on a ridiculous level when you think about it. Your view lowers His power to elevate your own. Why you want to argue the weakness, ignorance, and pointlessness of our God makes no sense to me at all. Who exactly is glorified by what you're teaching here?

Paul, emphasized, not merely a brief mention, but the word literally means MUST STAY or REMAIN [[in]] God.
Paul, never said, anything about God walking away or leaving.
but rather, God, is "ALWAYS" THERE.
we must then choose to ABIDE [STAY/REMAIN] with God.

so, what is your assessment, of "Those," who do the [[opposite]] of what Paul is Commanding here, by ""(NOT)"" Abiding in Christ?

 

[JimmyTheLock]

so, what is your assessment of "Those" who do the [[opposite]] of what Paul is Commanding here?

The OSAS peoples claim one just has to have a brief moment of faith at some point in their lives and they are eternal saved even if they turn away from the Lord and live like the devil.

They claim turning away from a liefstyle of living in sin to abide In Christ is trying to earn your salvation thru doing good works.

 

[HeIsHere]

The OSAS peoples claim one just has to have a brief moment of faith at some point in their lives and they are eternal saved even if they turn away from the Lord and live like the devil.

They claim turning away from a liefstyle of living in sin to abide In Christ is trying to earn your salvation thru doing good works.

No, it is the object of one's faith that saves not the faith in and of itself.

So you are misrepresenting the doctrine and then placing yourself in a position where you can point out why it is wrong.

That is creating a straw man argument.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

The OSAS peoples claim one just has to have a brief moment of faith at some point in their lives and they are eternal saved even if they turn away from the Lord and live like the devil.

They claim turning away from a liefstyle of living in sin to abide In Christ is trying to earn your salvation thru doing good works.

even though, Paul, in Romans 1, explicitly explains even SINNERS, non-Regenitive People, could even see the Creation of God and KNOW this was GOD Who did it. they just Reject God on the basis of their own Reasoning and will Spend Eternity based upon those Choices.

you might as well be talking to a Computer Generated AI when talking to a OSAS'er.

 

[turbosixx]

Thanks for the long well thought out reply. In an effort to make it easier on both of us, I will try to focus on the root disagreement if that's ok with you. I will use your comments on Galatians as the root.

I agree with this part.

Paul was against their belief in the spiritual efficacy and spiritual justification from their being physically circumcised and was unequivocally edifying them otherwise and to not trust in it- that all was already achieved Christ, not by man.

This is the part I disagree with.

And should those who believed that they could be justified by it, then that would mean they were not saved, Christ would be of no value to them, and they were still under bondage of law. Those saved, once edified, would understand and would no longer perceive nor seek physical circumcision if they had.

I don't see those who were seeking to be justified by circumcision as not being saved. Paul tells them to keep standing firm and IF they received circumcision then they would have problems.
5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

The problems being they would be severed from Christ and fall from grace.
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.
You cannot sever something that is not attached. You cannot fall from a position you have not attained.

Here is a good example of being severed from Christ.
Jn. 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
Jesus says branch IN ME. I think we can both agree "in me" is a saved condition yet they can be taken away.

May I suggest not leaning too much on the KJV. We don't speak the kings english so it makes some things harder to understand. Which could lead to getting the wrong idea. Don't get me wrong, I love the KJV. It's a great word for word translation but there are better word for word translations that use today's english. It doesn't change the meaning, it just uses language we naturally understand. The verses you posted about the faith of Jesus. You had me questioning myself which is good and what this is all about. After looking into it I found that the KJV says "of" but newer ones say faith "in" Jesus which is more accurate and make more sense understanding the definition of faith. A good example would be KJV use of "rightly dividing". The Greek word used there has nothing to do with division. The 16th century man would understand it as accuracy or precision. There is a Greek word for dividing and it's not used there but there are those who build a doctrine on that word being about division.