God's Intervention?

[John146]

Those are not legitimate scenarios. If the Lord had intended for sin to not become a reality, then that tree and that serpent would not have been in the garden. The Lord knew Satan was going to become prideful and fall, just as He knew man would choose disobedience and sin. Given all that, there were not other alternatives that would ever have been possible. Many people I have met love to imagine the world had sin not entered it, and that scenario is vain because it did not move in the direction of God's ultimate outcome.

MM

Are you stating that sin was God's determined outcome? That's a fatalist RCC doctrine from Jerome and Calvin.

 

[John146]

Those are not legitimate scenarios. If the Lord had intended for sin to not become a reality, then that tree and that serpent would not have been in the garden. The Lord knew Satan was going to become prideful and fall, just as He knew man would choose disobedience and sin. Given all that, there were not other alternatives that would ever have been possible. Many people I have met love to imagine the world had sin not entered it, and that scenario is vain because it did not move in the direction of God's ultimate outcome.

MM

Do you believe in the power of prayer? Evangelism?

 

[Musicmaster]

You are stating that sin is a part of God’s plan. I reject your view of God. That is not the view of scripture.

Then you have to defend the idea that God is ever caught by surprise, therefore lacking foreknowledge. Scripture says otherwise. If you're reading the Book of Mormon as your scripture, then yes, I can understand your thinking that what I said is untrue.

What's the problem with God knowing full well the fall was going to happen? That Good Ship Lollipop dream of a utopia of sinlessness in relation to Adam was not at all in God's plan.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Many things you do not understand, the lord does not plan for humanity to fail, humanity in general except those who obey the lord fails by on their own accord because they do not listen to the lord, they refuse his blessings and holiness just like Satan did. We are here to make a choice, the lord wants for us to be HOLY like he is HOLY. What you wrote is the result of you not believing that the lord is all powerful HOLY, Perfect in every way and a loving father that do not wish any harm to his children, yes we are his children and should act like it.

All the evil of this world is the result of disobedience and choosing the wrong way. Never doubt GOD in any way. Instead , Doubt of your own faulty rantings.

Furthermore what you write here will cause confusion for those who are not strong in their faith, be careful what you write here, do not use deceptive words to negate GOD.

Peace.

If the Lord did not intend for the fall to happen, then pray tell why He placed that tree and that serpent into the garden.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Do you believe in the power of prayer? Evangelism?

I will be better able to answer your question if you would explain to me the basis. How does the Lord's control cause issues with prayer and evangelism?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

You are confusing divine foreknowledge (which is a part of the omniscience of God) with God's interventions in human history. Take the example of the deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt and their entry into the promised land. God would have already known the end from the beginning, including the role of Moses. But did God intervene throughout? Absolutely. Every plague in Egypt was via divine intervention. So divine foreknowledge does not cancel divine intervention at all.

As to the sacrifice of Christ, that was one of the few things which was predetermined by God. However, God does not predetermine everything, or too many things (as per Reformed Theology). Otherwise He would be held accountable for all the sin and evil and wickedness in this world.

How can anyone say that the Lord did not set in motion the power of His word before the world ever was in relation to Israel being freed from slavery? What did He do in advance as opposed to His being nothing more than a reactionary, which serisouly attacks His Sovereignty?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Sorry for giving offence. But you are simply sowing seeds of spiritual confusion. Others have also noted that.

Misunderstanding always has the potential for sowing such seeds, especially when they don't ask questions for clarification. Most tend to assume the worst in the words of another. That's a part of our fallen nature, and for those who give in so easily to their fallen nature, that's their problem, not mine.

MM

 

[ThyKingdomComeSoon]

If the Lord did not intend for the fall to happen, then pray tell why He placed that tree and that serpent into the garden.

MM

the tree yes the serpent no, GOD is not one to place traps before people, however he will watch closely to see what you do, to see which side you choose, Life is a Big test.

 

[Musicmaster]

Do you believe in the power of prayer? Can prayer change things? Is God reachable through our prayers?

Given that the Bible I read says that the Lord knows what we are going to ask before we even ask it, how does that negate anything?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Are you stating that sin was God's determined outcome? That's a fatalist RCC doctrine from Jerome and Calvin.

Look, you can poison the well of discussion by labeling what I'm saying with people like that, but it will never define what I'm actually saying. Ask legitimate questions without poisonous labels, and perhaps we will get somewhere.

MM

 

[Magenta]

Yes, already known. My view of God is a biblical view, not a logical, man made view. There are examples after
examples of God repenting, changing his mind based upon man’s response to his word. It’s called grace.

It has always been God's plan to forgive upon repentance. How do you rationalize calling that changing His mind?

 

[Musicmaster]

the tree yes the serpent no, GOD is not one to place traps before people, however he will watch closely to see what you do, to see which side you choose, Life is a Big test.

Ahh, so do you believe that serpent was there without God's knowledge? If that's the case, then we are not talking about the same God, which renders moot any further discussion. If that serpent could slither in there without the full knowledge of the Most High, then we are not talking about the same Bible.

MM

 

[Magenta]

Ahh, so do you believe that serpent was there without God's knowledge?

That is not what he said... he said God did not place the serpent in the garden.

 

[ThyKingdomComeSoon]

Ahh, so do you believe that serpent was there without God's knowledge? If that's the case, then we are not talking about the same God, which renders moot any further discussion. If that serpent could slither in there without the full knowledge of the Most High, then we are not talking about the same Bible.

MM

Not what I said, direct in reply to your question; ""If the Lord did not intend for the fall to happen, then pray tell why He placed that tree and that serpent into the garden"

I said the tree yes, the serpent no. GOD did not place the serpent there, GOD Is All knowing of course he knew the serpent, the adversary was there!

 

[Musicmaster]

Not what I said, direct in reply to your question; ""If the Lord did not intend for the fall to happen, then pray tell why He placed that tree and that serpent into the garden"

I said the tree yes, the serpent no. GOD did not place the serpent there, GOD Is All knowing of course he knew the serpent, the adversary was there!

Alright, bad wording on my part. Rephrase: Was the serpent there against the will of the Lord? Was He so out of control of even that little garden that the serpent got in under the radar of God's observational powers? Please clarify the basis for how that serpent got in there, and the Lord did nothing at all to stop it if it was not His express will for it to be there.

MM

 

[Magenta]

Alright, bad wording on my part. Rephrase: Was the serpent there against the will of the Lord?
Was He so out of control of even that little garden that the serpent got in under the radar of
God's observational powers? Please clarify the basis for how that serpent got in there, and the
Lord did nothing at all to stop it if it was not His express will for it to be there.

MM

You seem to be setting up the logical fallacy of the excluded middle, or false dilemma: assuming that there
are only two possible choices. God allowing something to happen does not necessarily equate to God desiring
that something to happen. If it did, that would make God the author of evil. We know that God has placed limits
on Satan, and allows certain things. Jesus said to Peter, "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift each of you like
wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith will not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen
your brothers.” I think of God's will as being tripartite: sovereign, moral, and permissive.

Luke 22:31-32 ~ Satan has asked to sift each of you like wheat...

 

[John146]

Then you have to defend the idea that God is ever caught by surprise, therefore lacking foreknowledge.

Why would you assume that God is caught by surprise? Many things my kids have done, I did not have foreknowledge of, but I was not caught by surprise. That's no a good argument.

 

[John146]

I will be better able to answer your question if you would explain to me the basis. How does the Lord's control cause issues with prayer and evangelism?

MM

If you believe God controls all things to occur. Why pray? Why evangelize if God already chooses all things? Are we mere robots living out what God has intended?

 

[John146]

If the Lord did not intend for the fall to happen, then pray tell why He placed that tree and that serpent into the garden.

MM

God intended for Adam and Eve, man, to live in righteousness and obedience. They did not.

 

[John146]

It has always been God's plan to forgive upon repentance. How do you rationalize calling that changing His mind?

If God knew ahead of time, that makes God to be a liar. God is not a liar, but gracious.