The Trinity

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Kroogz

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Dec 5, 2023
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What do those have to do with Jesus spoke, we heard and followed? I thought that was what was in conflict here. Not works.
I believe in Eternal Security. I just believe the process is Jesus speaks, we hear, it's clearly a command because we then follow and have the eternal life promise. But, I also believe in Hebrews where those who were saved are now in the condition of those Verses.
And he explains their condition:

Heb 6~~7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

1 Cor 3:15~~English Standard Version
If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

The emphasis is on the individual, not the works.
 
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And he explains their condition:

Heb 6~~7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

1 Cor 3:15~~English Standard Version
If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

The emphasis is on the individual, not the works.
But Hebrews claims they have fallen away and impossible to repent. How are they repenting? No repenting means no sins forgiven.
 

GRACE_ambassador

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Feb 22, 2021
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Midwest
I struggle here to understand what you are meaning for me to understand. Can you put it forth in a couple of sentences or a paragraph?
Precious friend, I will try this brief version of obeying God's Command in
2 Timothy 2:15, like this:

James/Hebrews in God's Context TO "The Twelve tribes of Israel" (James 1:1)
"faith without works is dead"... according to God's prophecy / Covenants / law

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

Paul, in God's Context TO "The One Body Of CHRIST" (Romans - Philemon KJB!)
"faith without works is alive"... according To God's Revelation Of The Mystery!

Hope this helps.

Amen.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Precious friend, I will try this brief version of obeying God's Command in
2 Timothy 2:15, like this:

James/Hebrews in God's Context TO "The Twelve tribes of Israel" (James 1:1)
"faith without works is dead"... according to God's prophecy / Covenants / law

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

Paul, in God's Context TO "The One Body Of CHRIST" (Romans - Philemon KJB!)
"faith without works is alive"... according To God's Revelation Of The Mystery!

Hope this helps.

Amen.
I like that phrase...faith without works is alive...
 

Cameron143

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Not falling away. But I believe outside of choosing to fall away, salvation is a guarantee.
So I understand, we can separate ourselves from the love of God?
Incidentally, this is the question I asked from Romans 8.
 
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So I understand, we can separate ourselves from the love of God?
Incidentally, this is the question I asked from Romans 8.
I believe Hebrews speaks about saved people who practice sinning. The Verse claims they're crucifying Jesus again. They're making a mockery of the death of Jesus. Almost using it as a reason they can keep on sinning. And as the Verse explains, it becomes impossible for them to repent. Why would a person repent who believes they can keep on sinning?
 

Kroogz

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Dec 5, 2023
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But Hebrews claims they have fallen away and impossible to repent. How are they repenting? No repenting means no sins forgiven.
We all have fallen away at times, but It doesn't say "impossible to repent." It is impossible for man(the teacher/instructor) to RESTORE them to repentance,since they are..... What if they stop doing these things? Animal sacrifices, and putting Him to open shame.
Here is a quick commentary to see where my perspective is coming from. Forgive me ,I can't remember the name.

Verses 1 through 3 set up the motivation for this warning in chapter 6. Stagnant, immature faith is not merely weak, it is dangerous. Those who do not move beyond the basics of the faith risk straying from the truth, which is disastrous.

The central concept in verse 6 is the Greek word parapesontas, which means "to fall to the side, wander, or take the wrong path." This is not the term apostasia, which produces the English word apostasy. The full context of the book of Hebrews, since chapter 3, has been the threat of doubt leading to disobedience. The primary example given is Israel, who suffered forty years of judgment for that very reason (Numbers 13—14). In the book of Hebrews, this illustrates how even a saved believer can suffer when they fail to "hold fast" in their faith (Hebrews 3:12–19; 4:11).

The book of Hebrews is written to persecuted Jewish Christians of the early church. The leading verses in chapter 6 described some of the basic differences between Judaism and Christianity. Those who continued to wallow in spiritual immaturity, doubting those very concepts, placed themselves in a dangerous position. The ultimate outcome of this weakness is explained here in verse 6. It's important to recall that these words are all intended for saved believers—those who have "shared the Holy Spirit" (Hebrews 6:4; Galatians 3:2), and such persons can never lose that salvation (John 10:28–30). They can, however, sabotage their own effectiveness in serving God (1 Corinthians 9:27).

It's also helpful to notice the specific structure of this sentence in Greek. All of these phrases are in a "present tense," so that we could state the conditions as "who have…" done all of these things. That includes the rejection of Christ. In short, a Christian who falls into doubt, disbelief, and disobedience is siding—at least in practice—with the world which crucified Jesus. To "fall aside" from trust in Christ is to support the worldview which crucified Him. It means they are, as of the present time, impossible to reach. Once a person is in that frame of mind, no earthly argument or encouragement will bring them back.

The context of this verse not only depends on the setup of verses 1 through 3, but also the imagery of verses 7 and 8. There, a field which is unproductive is restored by fire—an often-used metaphor for the judgment of God. The field is not destroyed, just as the saved believer is not cast into damnation. However, the process of clearing away spiritual thorns and weeds is painful, to say the least. This work can only be done by God, not by men (Luke 18:27).

Christians cannot lose their salvation. However, those who falter due to a shallow, disobedient faith put themselves in a position where only hardship and suffering can bring them back.
 
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We all have fallen away at times, but It doesn't say "impossible to repent." It is impossible for man(the teacher/instructor) to RESTORE them to repentance.
You will have to show me where it implies man in this Verse. I hope this is not another rightly divided example where we just place man into this Verse.
 

Cameron143

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I believe Hebrews speaks about saved people who practice sinning. The Verse claims they're crucifying Jesus again. They're making a mockery of the death of Jesus. Almost using it as a reason they can keep on sinning. And as the Verse explains, it becomes impossible for them to repent. Why would a person repent who believes they can keep on sinning?
I think Hebrews has a different message. The writer's emphasis is to exhort Hebrew believers to remain strong in their faith. They are under great persecution and life would be easier for them in the renouncing of their faith and returning to Judaism. Thus, the writer reminds them of the superior nature of the new covenant in a variety of ways.
In the verses cited, sin isn't mentioned. Persecution is certainly in view. And indeed, some are falling away for this reason. No different than what Jesus taught in the parable of the sower.
Where would a Jew go if they renounced their faith? My guess is back to Judaism. What would that mean? They would again be in need of a Messiah. They have rejected Christ. So, since He actually is the Messiah and another isn't coming, what is there that will lead them to repent?
Now all this, in and of itself, doesn't refute eternal security. And I would have to study the verses again to establish what exactly the other verses are teaching. But the writer isn't concerned primarily with salvation or security. His concern is to exhort his readers to continue in the faith.
 
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I think Hebrews has a different message. The writer's emphasis is to exhort Hebrew believers to remain strong in their faith. They are under great persecution and life would be easier for them in the renouncing of their faith and returning to Judaism. Thus, the writer reminds them of the superior nature of the new covenant in a variety of ways.
In the verses cited, sin isn't mentioned. Persecution is certainly in view. And indeed, some are falling away for this reason. No different than what Jesus taught in the parable of the sower.
Where would a Jew go if they renounced their faith? My guess is back to Judaism. What would that mean? They would again be in need of a Messiah. They have rejected Christ. So, since He actually is the Messiah and another isn't coming, what is there that will lead them to repent?
Now all this, in and of itself, doesn't refute eternal security. And I would have to study the verses again to establish what exactly the other verses are teaching. But the writer isn't concerned primarily with salvation or security. His concern is to exhort his readers to continue in the faith.
It begins with them having enjoyed the Heavenly Gift and the Holy Spirit. I doubt they are returning to their former life. I would think they are thinking they're saved but they enjoy doing things that makes them in a fallen state to where it's impossible to repent. I am just presenting these Verses and discussing them. So far, it seems there's at least 4 distinct and separate views to this one set of Verses.
 
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In my opinion, I think we are actually following similar beliefs that salvation is secure. I might be the odd one by thinking our views differ based upon what Hebrews means.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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You will have to show me where it implies man in this Verse.
Heb 5~~11About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

Heb 6~~
1Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2and of instruction about washings,a the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do if God permits. 4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

If the teachings can't get through to them, God can get through to them.

One thing not to overlook is the fact that it is impossible to get through to these dull of hearing believers because they are actively doing something. They went back to animal sacrifices and their old rituals. Which seems to suggest that if they stopped doing this activity, they could actually listen and be restored to fellowship.

I hope this is not another rightly divided example where we just place man into this Verse.
 

CS1

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Unconfessed sin, regardless of whether it falls under the umbrella of rebellion or under some other sin, is simply a way of speaking about sin. I juxtaposed it with confessed sin, for the sake of comparison. Certainly one is in rebellion if they do not confess their sin, but they do not lose their their position of sonship. This was all I set out to establish. And I was doing so because some were saying our position in Christ was incumbent upon our confession. If this were so, every sin would result in the loss of salvation. There are other problems engendered with this as well.
If your objection is to my use of the term unconfessed sin, then duly noted.

"because some were saying our position in Christ was incumbent upon our confession. If this were so, every sin would result in the loss of salvation. There are other problems engendered with this as well."


1John 1:8-10

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


If we confess means: to concede

Contextually is, not to admit you have sinned; therefore, you make God a liar. There are sins one has done they do not even know they have done, yet are saved, died, and did not confess those sins, BUT the work of the Christ and faith in Christ remove it.

Please, you me in the Bible, where unconfessed sin is said or has the context to what you are referring to.
Thank you,
 
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Heb 5~~11About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

Heb 6~~
1Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2and of instruction about washings,a the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do if God permits. 4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

If the teachings can't get through to them, God can get through to them.

One thing not to overlook is the fact that it is impossible to get through to these dull of hearing believers because they are actively doing something. They went back to animal sacrifices and their old rituals. Which seems to suggest that if they stopped doing this activity, they could actually listen and be restored to fellowship.
As You may have noticed, I am not one to say You are wrong. I ask for proof. I do this because I think we are somewhat correct here. But I don't know that I believe man is being directed to as the one who is trying to bring repentance for these fallen people.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
771
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As You may have noticed, I am not one to say You are wrong. I ask for proof. I do this because I think we are somewhat correct here. But I don't know that I believe man is being directed to as the one who is trying to bring repentance for these fallen people.
Fair enough. I can't be dogmatic on how I see these verses. I am dogmatic about eternal security though.

If they are saved people, it's not about loss of salvation.

If they are not saved people, it's still not about loss of salvation.

There is no loss of salvation in His word.