Orthodox Jew answers a few questions
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The problem with Israel as a whole being the servant of IS53 is-
Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
But under the covenant of the law, and throughout the old testament- Israel doesn't bear the illness of others. When other nations sin, Israel is raised up. When Israel suffers; it is for their own sin. At least that seems like the consistent pattern to me.
Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
But under the covenant of the law, and throughout the old testament- Israel doesn't bear the illness of others. When other nations sin, Israel is raised up. When Israel suffers; it is for their own sin. At least that seems like the consistent pattern to me.
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What about verse 10, God made His soul an offering for sin. Does that refer to Israel? If they truly believed that then why are they tracking down Nazi's? Think of the hypocrisy, eye for eye and tooth for tooth is how they operate, but here they claim that their suffering is a sin offering for the world. Total and complete hypocrisy.
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Individual Jews (like Jesus) could suffer, even if they kept the letter of the law; but not the whole nation- that would be God breaking his end of the covenant.
Unfortunately; the tanakh translation is slightly different- and it's understood as Israel making restitution and repenting, I think.
10And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
... Not that it makes much sense either; since the previous verses said he didn't do anything wrong. If he did nothing wrong; then why is he making restitution for himself?
Unfortunately; the tanakh translation is slightly different- and it's understood as Israel making restitution and repenting, I think.
10And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
... Not that it makes much sense either; since the previous verses said he didn't do anything wrong. If he did nothing wrong; then why is he making restitution for himself?
a sin offering is the act of making restitution. Verse 11 calls Him "my righteous servant" and yes, according to this chapter He is not making restitution for Himself but for "our sins". You cannot understand that to mean Israel's sins if you interpret the "righteous servant" to be Israel.
So it is the same thing, does Israel make restitution for the sins of the Nazi's? No way. They have gone to great lengths to make sure the Nazi's pay for what they did. It is the height of arrogance to say this "righteous servant" refers to Israel.
So it is the same thing, does Israel make restitution for the sins of the Nazi's? No way. They have gone to great lengths to make sure the Nazi's pay for what they did. It is the height of arrogance to say this "righteous servant" refers to Israel.
Hmmm... I do recall the story of the trial of an SS officer- he was like an accountant or something; he was an admin officer.
There were a whole bunch of damning testimonies; but then one jewish woman got up saying that she forgave him, and that his "good work" was to live and tell the truth about what he and the SS did. The SS officer was not executed- and a LOT of other jews were FURIOUS.
So, I guess whether or not it's arrogance or ignorance would depend on their outlook on things.
There were a whole bunch of damning testimonies; but then one jewish woman got up saying that she forgave him, and that his "good work" was to live and tell the truth about what he and the SS did. The SS officer was not executed- and a LOT of other jews were FURIOUS.
So, I guess whether or not it's arrogance or ignorance would depend on their outlook on things.
This is the word for sin offering: אָשָׁם
It is used repeatedly in the book of Leviticus for trespass offering. 27 times in Leviticus and every time it is translated trespass offering.
The only reason for the Tanakh to say restitution instead of trespass offering is because they know how absurd it is to say that Israel is making a trespass offering for the sins of the world.
It is used repeatedly in the book of Leviticus for trespass offering. 27 times in Leviticus and every time it is translated trespass offering.
The only reason for the Tanakh to say restitution instead of trespass offering is because they know how absurd it is to say that Israel is making a trespass offering for the sins of the world.
That is not the same thing. We forgive others for their trespasses against us because we have been forgiven. We have the right to forgive debts that people have to us, but we have no right to forgive debts that people have to others.
A trespass offering means you pay the price of the debt. Now if that woman had said you can execute me in his place that would be much closer to what this word is saying. Do you have any stories of Jews offering to die to pay for the sins of the Nazi's?
And yes, the rabbis are well aware of the distinction.
A trespass offering means you pay the price of the debt. Now if that woman had said you can execute me in his place that would be much closer to what this word is saying. Do you have any stories of Jews offering to die to pay for the sins of the Nazi's?
And yes, the rabbis are well aware of the distinction.
Nope, definitely not.
Yeah, the commentary from the site you linked earlier says that he's making the offering for himself- then going on to bear the iniquity of others. Like, it splits up the sin offering and the bearing of iniquity- even though it never says the servant sinned they attribute the offering as for the servant's sin.
Yeah, the commentary from the site you linked earlier says that he's making the offering for himself- then going on to bear the iniquity of others. Like, it splits up the sin offering and the bearing of iniquity- even though it never says the servant sinned they attribute the offering as for the servant's sin.
Isaiah 51:
1 Hearken to Me, you pursuers of righteousness, you seekers of the Lord; look at the rock whence you were hewn and at the hole of the pit whence you were dug.
2 Look at Abraham your father and at Sarah who bore you, for when he was but one I called him, and I blessed him and made him many.
3 For the Lord shall console Zion, He shall console all its ruins, and He shall make its desert like a paradise and its wasteland like the garden of the Lord; joy and happiness shall be found therein, thanksgiving and a voice of song.
4 Hearken to Me, My people, and My nation, bend your ears to Me, when Torah shall emanate from Me, and My judgment [shall be] for the light of the peoples, I will give [them] rest.
5 My righteousness is near, My salvation has gone forth, and My arms shall chasten peoples; islands shall wait for Me, and on My arm shall they trust.
6 Raise your eyes to heaven and look at the earth from beneath, for the heavens shall vanish like smoke, and the earth shall rot away like a garment, and its inhabitants shall likewise die, and My salvation shall be forever, and My righteousness shall not be abolished.
7 Hearken to Me, you who know righteousness, a people that has My Torah in their heart, fear not reproach of man, and from their revilings be not dismayed.
8 For, like a garment, the moth shall consume them, and like wool, the worm shall consume them, but My righteousness shall be forever, and My salvation to all generations.
9 Awaken, awaken, dress yourself with strength, O arm of the Lord, awaken, awaken like days of old, generations of yore; are you not the one that hewed Rahab and slew the sea monster?
10 Are you not the one who dried up the sea, the waters of the great deep? Who made the depths of the sea a road for the redeemed ones to pass?
11 And the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and they shall come to Zion with song, and [with] everlasting joy on their heads; gladness and joy shall overtake them; sorrow and sighing shall flee.
12 I, yea I am He Who consoles you; who are you that you fear man who will die and the son of man, who shall be made [as] grass?
13 And you forgot the Lord your Maker, Who spread out the heavens and founded the earth, and you fear constantly the whole day because of the wrath of the oppressor when he prepared to destroy. Now where is the wrath of the oppressor?
14 What must be poured out hastened to be opened, and he shall not die of destruction, and his bread shall not be wanting.
15 I am the Lord your God, Who wrinkles the sea and its waves stir; the Lord of Hosts is His name.
16 And I placed My words into your mouth, and with the shadow of My hand I covered you, to plant the heavens and to found the earth and to say to Zion [that] you are My people.
17 Awaken, awaken, arise, Jerusalem, for you have drunk from the hand of the Lord the cup of His wrath; the dregs of the cup of weakness you have drained.
18 She has no guide out of all the sons she bore, and she has no one who takes her by the hand out of all the sons she raised.
19 These two things have befallen you; who will lament for you? Plunder and destruction, and famine and sword. [With] whom will I console you?
20 Your sons have fainted, they lie at the entrance of all streets like a wild ox in a net, full of the wrath of the Lord, the rebuke of your God.
21 Therefore, hearken now to this, you poor one, and who is drunk but not from wine.
22 So said your Master, the Lord, and your God Who shall judge His people, "Behold, I took from you the cup of weakness; the dregs of the cup of My wrath-you shall no longer continue to drink it.
23 And I will place it into the hand of those who cause you to wander, who said to your soul, 'Bend down and let us cross,' and you made your body like the earth and like the street for those who cross."
Isaiah 52:
1 Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
3 Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
4 Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
5 But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
6 We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.
8 From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
9 And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10 And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
11 From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.
12 Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.
Isaiah 53:
1 Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
3 Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
4 Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
5 But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
6 We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.
8 From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
9 And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10 And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
11 From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.
12 Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.
G-d has many times in the Tanakh referred to Israel in the singular, including in Isaiah when he talks to Zion (Israel). What reason do I have to believe it does not mean what the plain text seems to say?
1 Hearken to Me, you pursuers of righteousness, you seekers of the Lord; look at the rock whence you were hewn and at the hole of the pit whence you were dug.
2 Look at Abraham your father and at Sarah who bore you, for when he was but one I called him, and I blessed him and made him many.
3 For the Lord shall console Zion, He shall console all its ruins, and He shall make its desert like a paradise and its wasteland like the garden of the Lord; joy and happiness shall be found therein, thanksgiving and a voice of song.
4 Hearken to Me, My people, and My nation, bend your ears to Me, when Torah shall emanate from Me, and My judgment [shall be] for the light of the peoples, I will give [them] rest.
5 My righteousness is near, My salvation has gone forth, and My arms shall chasten peoples; islands shall wait for Me, and on My arm shall they trust.
6 Raise your eyes to heaven and look at the earth from beneath, for the heavens shall vanish like smoke, and the earth shall rot away like a garment, and its inhabitants shall likewise die, and My salvation shall be forever, and My righteousness shall not be abolished.
7 Hearken to Me, you who know righteousness, a people that has My Torah in their heart, fear not reproach of man, and from their revilings be not dismayed.
8 For, like a garment, the moth shall consume them, and like wool, the worm shall consume them, but My righteousness shall be forever, and My salvation to all generations.
9 Awaken, awaken, dress yourself with strength, O arm of the Lord, awaken, awaken like days of old, generations of yore; are you not the one that hewed Rahab and slew the sea monster?
10 Are you not the one who dried up the sea, the waters of the great deep? Who made the depths of the sea a road for the redeemed ones to pass?
11 And the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and they shall come to Zion with song, and [with] everlasting joy on their heads; gladness and joy shall overtake them; sorrow and sighing shall flee.
12 I, yea I am He Who consoles you; who are you that you fear man who will die and the son of man, who shall be made [as] grass?
13 And you forgot the Lord your Maker, Who spread out the heavens and founded the earth, and you fear constantly the whole day because of the wrath of the oppressor when he prepared to destroy. Now where is the wrath of the oppressor?
14 What must be poured out hastened to be opened, and he shall not die of destruction, and his bread shall not be wanting.
15 I am the Lord your God, Who wrinkles the sea and its waves stir; the Lord of Hosts is His name.
16 And I placed My words into your mouth, and with the shadow of My hand I covered you, to plant the heavens and to found the earth and to say to Zion [that] you are My people.
17 Awaken, awaken, arise, Jerusalem, for you have drunk from the hand of the Lord the cup of His wrath; the dregs of the cup of weakness you have drained.
18 She has no guide out of all the sons she bore, and she has no one who takes her by the hand out of all the sons she raised.
19 These two things have befallen you; who will lament for you? Plunder and destruction, and famine and sword. [With] whom will I console you?
20 Your sons have fainted, they lie at the entrance of all streets like a wild ox in a net, full of the wrath of the Lord, the rebuke of your God.
21 Therefore, hearken now to this, you poor one, and who is drunk but not from wine.
22 So said your Master, the Lord, and your God Who shall judge His people, "Behold, I took from you the cup of weakness; the dregs of the cup of My wrath-you shall no longer continue to drink it.
23 And I will place it into the hand of those who cause you to wander, who said to your soul, 'Bend down and let us cross,' and you made your body like the earth and like the street for those who cross."
Isaiah 52:
1 Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
3 Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
4 Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
5 But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
6 We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.
8 From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
9 And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10 And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
11 From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.
12 Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.
Isaiah 53:
1 Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
3 Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
4 Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
5 But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
6 We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.
8 From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
9 And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10 And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
11 From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.
12 Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.
G-d has many times in the Tanakh referred to Israel in the singular, including in Isaiah when he talks to Zion (Israel). What reason do I have to believe it does not mean what the plain text seems to say?
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Torah shall emanate from Me -- That is referring to the Messiah, the Son of God. It emanates from God. One like unto Moses when his face shone after being with God.
My righteousness is near. That is not referring to Israel. Yet in Isaiah 53 we have the "righteous servant". Clearly not Israel.
My salvation has gone forth. Either you are the one in need of salvation, or you are the savior. The comfort to God's people is that His salvation is gone forth, that means they are the ones in need of salvation. They are not the savior.
On my arm shall they trust. Once again, that is not Israel, that is the Messiah, the Son of God.
"What reason do I have to believe it does not mean what the plain text seems to say?"
My righteousness is near. That is not referring to Israel. Yet in Isaiah 53 we have the "righteous servant". Clearly not Israel.
My salvation has gone forth. Either you are the one in need of salvation, or you are the savior. The comfort to God's people is that His salvation is gone forth, that means they are the ones in need of salvation. They are not the savior.
On my arm shall they trust. Once again, that is not Israel, that is the Messiah, the Son of God.
"What reason do I have to believe it does not mean what the plain text seems to say?"
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"the heavens shall vanish like smoke, and the earth shall rot away...and my salvation shall be forever" -- Are we really to believe that this eternal salvation comes from Israel when the earth is going to rot away and the heavens shall vanish? Why would you trust in your riches if you know that it will all rot away? Even if your kingdom rises to the heavens it will vanish, the point is that only God is eternal, only God can be the one who brings eternal salvation.
My righteousness shall not be abolished -- do you really have the gall to say that is a reference to Israel? Based on what? Compared to Hitler and Stalin Israel may be able to say they are better, but so what. That is like a prostitute who does crack saying "at least she isn't a Meth Addict".
The arm of the Lord -- we are talking about the arm of the Lord. I thought it was blasphemy for Israel to claim that they are G_d.
The one that hewed Rahab and slew the sea monster -- The commentators say this is a reference to what God did to Egypt with the ten plagues and Pharaoh is the "dragon" or sea monster. That was not Israel, that was God and Moses. This is referring to the one who is to come like Moses and bring God's salvation.
Who made the depths of the sea a road for the redeemed ones to pass? -- This is a reference to the crossing of the Red Sea. Again, not Israel but God and Moses.
I, yea I am He Who consoles you -- consoles who? Israel. Who is the "I"? The same one who did the ten plagues, who slew Pharaoh and who split the red sea.
"What reason do I have to believe it does not mean what the plain text seems to say?"
My righteousness shall not be abolished -- do you really have the gall to say that is a reference to Israel? Based on what? Compared to Hitler and Stalin Israel may be able to say they are better, but so what. That is like a prostitute who does crack saying "at least she isn't a Meth Addict".
The arm of the Lord -- we are talking about the arm of the Lord. I thought it was blasphemy for Israel to claim that they are G_d.
The one that hewed Rahab and slew the sea monster -- The commentators say this is a reference to what God did to Egypt with the ten plagues and Pharaoh is the "dragon" or sea monster. That was not Israel, that was God and Moses. This is referring to the one who is to come like Moses and bring God's salvation.
Who made the depths of the sea a road for the redeemed ones to pass? -- This is a reference to the crossing of the Red Sea. Again, not Israel but God and Moses.
I, yea I am He Who consoles you -- consoles who? Israel. Who is the "I"? The same one who did the ten plagues, who slew Pharaoh and who split the red sea.
"What reason do I have to believe it does not mean what the plain text seems to say?"
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That's always a good question. I guess in this instance; don't we know that, historically, Israel and Judah had been conquered by Assyria/Babylon because of their own sin? And while it's true that Israel and Judah's conquerors dealt out more punishment than they deserved, does IS53 reflect the posture of any gentile kingdom towards them? Is this supposed to be Cyrus' perspective of Israel then? Like he is one of the kings from IS52? Or is this not supposed to be historical at all?
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