Orthodox Jew answers a few questions

[ZNP]

How come you believe in a doctrine of Grace? Who wrote about it and then it became a doctrine? And obviously, it's a misused and misrepresentation of what this Person wrote.

This question is gibberish.

I believe that Jesus fulfilled the law. His blood was taken into the Holy of Holies and put on the mercy seat and His blood is the fulfillment of the atoning blood talked about and described in the OT.

Because of what Jesus did the way into the Holy of Holies is opened and so I can enter in and place my petitions before the throne of grace. The doctrine of grace says clearly that Jesus blood fulfilled the requirement of the law.

This doesn't change the fact that sin is still sin, God hates sin, and you must be cleansed of all sins. You can't simply say "my bad", you have to in many cases pay restitution. But, the Lord gives you grace to do that.

 

[uncle_mike]

This question is gibberish.

I believe that Jesus fulfilled the law. His blood was taken into the Holy of Holies and put on the mercy seat and His blood is the fulfillment of the atoning blood talked about and described in the OT.

Because of what Jesus did the way into the Holy of Holies is opened and so I can enter in and place my petitions before the throne of grace. The doctrine of grace says clearly that Jesus blood fulfilled the requirement of the law.

This doesn't change the fact that sin is still sin, God hates sin, and you must be cleansed of all sins. You can't simply say "my bad", you have to in many cases pay restitution. But, the Lord gives you grace to do that.

Fulfilling the Law just means He qualified to be our Sacrifice. Has nothing to do with You following it or not.

 

[ZNP]

Fulfilling the Law just means He qualified to be our Sacrifice. Has nothing to do with You following it or not.

Really, show me that from the New Testament.

 

[Magenta]

This is because of the writings of Paul. If there never was a Paul, and we only had the Gospels, the Disciples, and the brothers of Jesus, there's no evidence that the Law had ended.

Peter in Acts 15:10-11 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are. The yoke is the law. Jesus referred to it as well. The law remans to condemn those not covered by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 11:28-30

 

[Mem]

Ah replacement theology. Another "G-d changed his mind/the Torah" despite him specifically saying he would never do that.

Let's look at it from the perspective that God did not change His mind, so what then did He change? Well, He changed the way to righteousness, all while still upholding the law. He did not cast it down but (I'd rather use the perfect word but struggle...satisfied? secured?) its judgments, through Christ. Christ is the Way, and the only way to eternal life. The Way, the Truth, and the Life.

 

[Magenta]

Do Christian's keep all the laws of the Torah? Why or why not?

From Hebrews 10:1, 4, and 1 Corinthians 5:7

 

[ZNP]

It is very confusing to Gentiles to simply say that "we are not under the law" because we think of the law as the ten commandments.

The Jews understood the law as the torah, five books, and it involves all the sacrifices, priesthood, oblations, and regulations needed to cleanse you of sin.

The judaizers wanted those who received Jesus to be brought under this yoke meaning they would get circumcised and they would go to the synagogue and become members of the Jewish religion making Christianity one of the many sects in the Jewish religion.

Peter is saying you don't have to convert to Judaism to become a Christian. He is not saying you are free to steal, murder and commit adultery.

 

[uncle_mike]

Really, show me that from the New Testament.

You should show me since you make the claim. Don't use Paul either.

 

[Magenta]

Christians are not under the ordinances of the Jewish religion, but the moral laws are repeated in the New Testament. The only dietary regulation we are told to keep is to not eat blood.

Nor are we to keep circumcision, that was a sign of the covenant that the Jews have, the sign of our covenant is the cross of Christ that circumcises our heart. That is the sign of the covenant we have with the Lord Jesus.

Nor do we keep the sabbath even though it is part of the ten commandments because Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and we keep the Lord's day, the day of resurrection.

From Acts 15:20 plus 28

 

[Magenta]

It is very confusing to Gentiles to simply say that "we are not under the law" because we think of the law as the ten commandments.

The Jews understood the law as the torah, five books, and it involves all the sacrifices, priesthood, oblations, and regulations needed to cleanse you of sin.

The judaizers wanted those who received Jesus to be brought under this yoke meaning they would get circumcised and they would go to the synagogue and become members of the Jewish religion making Christianity one of the many sects in the Jewish religion.

Peter is saying you don't have to convert to Judaism to become a Christian. He is not saying you are free to steal, murder and commit adultery.

Some say the law and mean the 613 mitzvot. Someone here very recently told me those are the laws written on our hearts. How ridiculous is that? I agree with you: understanding the grace of Jesus Christ is not a license to sin. Some seem to think that is how others live. Maybe they do. Of course when pressed, even those who say if you live a lifestyle of sinning you are going to hell, will admit they still sin.

 

[uncle_mike]

From Acts 15:20 plus 28

These are the New Testament Laws for the Gentiles who are in Christ. Still effective to this day.

 

[ZNP]

You should show me since you make the claim. Don't use Paul either.

LOL, are you kidding? You make the claim that the doctrine of grace means you don't have to follow the law, by which I understand that to mean the ten commandments. If that is not your meaning by all means, clarify yourself, if that is your meaning then show me the verses that would lead you to believe that.

 

[Magenta]

These are the New Testament Laws for the Gentiles who are in Christ. Still effective to this day.

There is neither Jew nor Greek (gentile) in Christ Jesus. See Galatians 3.

Galatians 3:23-25

Galatians 3:26-27

 

[uncle_mike]

LOL, are you kidding? You make the claim that the doctrine of grace means you don't have to follow the law, by which I understand that to mean the ten commandments. If that is not your meaning by all means, clarify yourself, if that is your meaning then show me the verses that would lead you to believe that.

I did not make any claim. I said, without the writings of Paul, there would be no doctrine of Grace as it is known currently.

 

[Magenta]

Galatians 3:10

 

[uncle_mike]

Galatians 3:10

But the Disciples kept the Law because it still helped them to discern between what sin is and what it is not. We see them still observing Sabbath, going to Temple for prayer, eating kosher, honoring the Old Testament holidays. Jesus and the Last Supper was during Passover. They continued and we know was truly following Jesus.

 

[ZNP]

I did not make any claim. I said, without the writings of Paul, there would be no doctrine of Grace as it is known currently.

What does "known currently" mean? I completely reject the "Once Saved Always Saved" pushed by big Mega churches which wink at sin, whereas our "being saved by grace" is a direct quote from the book of Ephesians. Everyone who believes the Bible is the word of God believes we are saved by grace.

 

[uncle_mike]

What does "known currently" mean? I completely reject the "Once Saved Always Saved" pushed by big Mega churches which wink at sin, whereas our "being saved by grace" is a direct quote from the book of Ephesians. Everyone who believes the Bible is the word of God believes we are saved by grace.

But it is the saved by Grace that gets twisted. Some see it as an act of God, others see it as a conditional portal that gives them freedom and free way to either sin or not confess sin. I see it as God providing me Salvation because I could never achieve it on my own.

 

[Magenta]

But the Disciples kept the Law because it still helped them to discern between what sin is and what it is not.
We see them still observing Sabbath, going to Temple for prayer, eating kosher, honoring the Old Testament
holidays. Jesus and the Last Supper was during Passover. They continued and we know was truly following Jesus.

It is impossible to keep the law. And they did not teach the keeping of the law. For instance, circumcision,
for starters. Also, while living under the law of Moses, they never ate with Gentiles. That was forbidden.
But even Jesus consorted with those His fellow Jews strenuously disapproved of. Like the woman at
the well. And Jesus also forgave the woman caught in adultery, even though the law demanded her death.
If the Jewish leadership was really following the law, Jesus never would have been tried the way He was.

 

[ZNP]

But it is the saved by Grace that gets twisted. Some see it as an act of God, others see it as a conditional portal that gives them freedom and free way to either sin or not confess sin.

No bible verse is of its own interpretation. You cannot conclude that being saved by grace gives us a license to sin from the NT or from Paul's writings. That is simply a twisting of the scripture by those who do it to their own destruction.