Scripture Based Flat Earth Proposition

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Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#101
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
13,797
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#101
Romans34 said:
Everything.
"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." (Genesis 1:3-5) doesn't say anything about heaven or firmament. [Day 1]
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Your argument sounds good at first, but upon examination, it fails.

1: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

If "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" is merely a summary statement with the detail fleshed out after, then there was no "earth" to be formless and empty, no "darkness" to cover anything, and no "deep" over which the Spirit of God could hover, because God had not actually created anything yet.

The passage only makes sense if the first verse is actually the first action, not a summary of creation.
 
Romans34

Romans34

... let God be true ...
#102
Oct 28, 2023
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#102
Kroogz said:
I guess I am not following you. I re-read your opening posts. I know the big storms we have in the midwest the clouds are around 6500 feet at the bottom.
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We don't have proof positive that clouds or rain existed before the flood.
 
Romans34

Romans34

... let God be true ...
#103
Oct 28, 2023
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#103
Dino246 said:
Your argument sounds good at first, but upon examination, it fails.

1: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

If "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" is merely a summary statement with the detail fleshed out after, then there was no "earth" to be formless and empty, no "darkness" to cover anything, and no "deep" over which the Spirit of God could hover, because God had not actually created anything yet.

The passage only makes sense if the first verse is actually the first action, not a summary of creation.
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Verse two certainly is the beginning of the "fleshing out", and at best could be considered the early part of "Day 1", both nothing about heavens or firmament are mentioned until "Day 2". Question: If verse 1 introduces us to heavens (at least 3 or more), then does the mention of heavens (at least 3 or more) in verse 8 give us at a minimum of 6 heavens?
 
K

Kroogz

Well-known member
#105
Dec 5, 2023
777
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#105
Romans34 said:
We don't have proof positive that clouds or rain existed before the flood.
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I agree. We cannot be dogmatic about it. However, we have references of the doors of heaven being clouds in the scripture.
Psalm 78:23
Yet He commanded the clouds above And opened the doors of heaven;

And more poetic descriptions:

Job 38:37~~“Who can count the clouds by wisdom, And pour out the water jars of the heavens,

I have a hard time believing that God is literally pouring out jars of water. I believe he is describing rain from the clouds.

Job 38:34
Can you command the clouds so that a flood of water covers you?

I have a suspicion that the rain began when Adam fell. And a part of the toiling by the sweat of His brow, was now knowing the signs of the seasons in order to till the land properly.

Gen 3~~17And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#106
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
13,797
113
#106
Romans34 said:
Verse two certainly is the beginning of the "fleshing out", and at best could be considered the early part of "Day 1", both nothing about heavens or firmament are mentioned until "Day 2". Question: If verse 1 introduces us to heavens (at least 3 or more), then does the mention of heavens (at least 3 or more) in verse 8 give us at a minimum of 6 heavens?
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No, it doesn't.
 
K

Kroogz

Well-known member
#107
Dec 5, 2023
777
303
63
#107
There is another twist and possibly more "fleshing out" that needs to be done. Many scholars and believers read Gen 1:1,2 like this:

Vss. 1-2. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

But the earth had become a ruin and a desolation; and darkness was

upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God hovered over the

face of the waters.

Satans fall.

Jer 4:26

23I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a [m]formless and desolate emptiness;

And to the heavens, and they had no light.

24I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,

And all the hills jolted back and forth.

25I looked, and behold, there was no human,

And all the birds of the sky had fled.

26I looked, and behold, [n]the fruitful land was a wilderness,

And all its cities were pulled down

Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#109
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
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#109
Romans34 said:
Then they must be the same three heavens?
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The Hebrew word does not imply "three" but it may interpreted as more than one. Context tells us that it is speaking of only one in this case.
 
Romans34

Romans34

... let God be true ...
#110
Oct 28, 2023
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#110
Dino246 said:
The Hebrew word does not imply "three" but it may interpreted as more than one. Context tells us that it is speaking of only one in this case.
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The Hebrew words הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם and שָׁמָ֑יִם in verses 1 and 8 respectively both have the masculine plural form and certainly do mean 3 or more. Anyone with an elementary knowledge of the Hebrew language knows this. I think they must be the same three.
 
Stan_the_Man

Stan_the_Man

Banned
#111
Dec 29, 2023
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#111
ResidentAlien said:
I only have one question. From your title it sounds like you're proposing the earth is flat. Is that correct?
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Despite the many images of the Earth we have from space, theories about the Earth being flat are baseless.

Talking to those that think it is flat is a complete waste of time!

It's like trying to talk to a democrats as they are wrong too!:ROFL:
 
Moses_Young

Moses_Young

Banned
#114
Sep 15, 2019
9,991
5,546
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#114
Stan_the_Man said:
Well they believe it's OK to murder babies so anything after that is a step up!
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Murdering babies is a belief that requires denial of religious and scientific evidence. Belief in ball-Earth, 'though not as morally wrong, nonetheless requires similar ignorance of religion and science. One might say that Heliocentricity is a gateway belief to Abortionism.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#115
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
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#115
Moses_Young said:
Murdering babies is a belief that requires denial of religious and scientific evidence. Belief in ball-Earth, 'though not as morally wrong, nonetheless requires similar ignorance of religion and science. One might say that Heliocentricity is a gateway belief to Abortionism.
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This is a spurious relationship and not causal. A tad inflammatory too.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#116
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
13,797
113
#116
Moses_Young said:
Murdering babies is a belief that requires denial of religious and scientific evidence. Belief in ball-Earth, 'though not as morally wrong, nonetheless requires similar ignorance of religion and science. One might say that Heliocentricity is a gateway belief to Abortionism.
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Wow. Personally, I think you should be banned for the above. I knew you struggled with basic physics, but I see that basic decency and respect are far outside your capacity as well.
 
Stan_the_Man

Stan_the_Man

Banned
#117
Dec 29, 2023
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#117
Moses_Young said:
Murdering babies is a belief that requires denial of religious and scientific evidence. Belief in ball-Earth, 'though not as morally wrong, nonetheless requires similar ignorance of religion and science. One might say that Heliocentricity is a gateway belief to Abortionism.
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Flat earth people need to see some videos taken from space.

And get it in to their head space that the earth is a globe! It's round!
 
Stan_the_Man

Stan_the_Man

Banned
#118
Dec 29, 2023
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#118
Dino246 said:
Wow. Personally, I think you should be banned for the above. I knew you struggled with basic physics, but I see that basic decency and respect are far outside your capacity as well.
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Really?

What is his post was so bad he should be banned?
 
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