SHOULD America be a Christian nation?

[TheGrungeDiva]

Does being a Christian Nation have to mean replacing government with a panel of Church elders or something? Or like a Pope of America? lol

To me, I thought the whole idea of being a Christian Nation is being a nation that at the very least strives for the basic tenets of Christianity. It doesn't necessarily mean a society that all believes the same doctrine, but rather a society that doesn't SHAME our Lord. A society that has strong values and ethics and a healthy fear of God. Leaders who consult the Bible rather than leaders who act like their words and opinions are worth more than the Word of God?

Imagine if pretty much everyone in America was actually a Christian and behaved in the way the Bible instructs us to behave. What would THAT look like? I know it's basically impossible, but this is just a discussion.

Where the tenets of Christianity happen to agree with secular morality (i.e., don't murder, don't steal, etc.), then it's not even an issue. The nation has the secular morality law, and Christians shouldn't be upset about that.

The only place it matters is where a Christian tenet is NOT something covered under secular morality.

So perhaps the direction to go is to offer up specific examples of behaviors or actions that are okay in secular morality but sin according to Christian morality.

For example, adultery. (Why is it always gay sex that Christians complain about? Are heterosexuals not just as sinful as gays when they cheat on their spouse?) I think rainacorn is asking if we should, for example, make adultery illegal, and/or if our tacet allowance of adultery (by keeping it legal) angers God, and risks us being punished as a nation. Am I reading you correctly, rainacorn?

God will not judge a nation for allowing people to sin against themselves. God will punish the sinners.

God will, however, judge a nation that makes policy that hurts others. For example, if there were a nation that said it's okay to murder someone if they're doing something wrong, God would -- AND DOES -- have a problem with that. It's not our job to judge others, but God's, and removing that judgment from God and inflicting it ourselves is one of those things that, I think, God would be totally justified in raining down fire from above. I wonder that we haven't been totally wiped out yet.

I think God would -- and DOES -- judge us, as a nation, for our national policies that inflict pain and suffering on others. We SHOULD be protesting those, but not because we're Christian, but rather because we're human.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Imagine if pretty much everyone in America was actually a Christian and behaved in the way the Bible instructs us to behave. What would THAT look like? I know it's basically impossible, but this is just a discussion.

My question is this: would it be significantly different than if everyone followed secular morality? How so? In what ways would the above totally hypothetical and impossible Christian nation be different than a nation full of people who follow secular morality strictly and "doing what they should"?

List specific things you think a secular moral nation would allow that a Christian would not, and why.

Also, I think there would still be problems, because different Christians interpret the Bible differently, and you'd be stuck with things that one person says should be one way but another says should be another way, both being based on different Scriptural interpretation. Who would be right, since both are Christian?

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Try a-b-o-r-t-i-o-n. Try g-a-y p-r-i-d-e. Jerusalem's worst transgressions pale in comparison and look what happened to them.

See, this is an example of exactly what I was talking about: how is gay pride any worse than heterosexual pride?

Why are so many Christians more concerned with who their neighbor is sleeping with than who is going without a meal? Do you really think God holds it against us if our neighbor has sex with someone MORE than if we allow hunger and poverty?

It makes me cry.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

sigh...and gay sex/abortion are worse than worshipping other gods? i somehow doubt it, hence we dont pale in comparison

Plus, whenever God punishes a nation, it isn't for their sexual sin but for their sin in ignoring the plight of those in need. And, lest anyone try to claim that Sodom & Gomorrah was punished for sexual sin, the BIBLE says otherwise. Read Ezekiel 16. S&G's sin was ignoring the plight of the needy, too.

The gang-rape of two angels was just another symptom of how depraved they were. It wasn't what God was really ticked off about.

(It also was not homosexuality.)

 

[Sooner28]

See, this is an example of exactly what I was talking about: how is gay pride any worse than heterosexual pride?

Why are so many Christians more concerned with who their neighbor is sleeping with than who is going without a meal? Do you really think God holds it against us if our neighbor has sex with someone MORE than if we allow hunger and poverty?

It makes me cry.

Yeah it's a twisted version of morality. Let's focus on what two consenting adults are doing instead of focusing on the massive amount of poverty in the world or violence or anything else.

 

[rainacorn]

For example, adultery. (Why is it always gay sex that Christians complain about? Are heterosexuals not just as sinful as gays when they cheat on their spouse?) I think rainacorn is asking if we should, for example, make adultery illegal, and/or if our tacet allowance of adultery (by keeping it legal) angers God, and risks us being punished as a nation. Am I reading you correctly, rainacorn?

God will not judge a nation for allowing people to sin against themselves. God will punish the sinners.

God will, however, judge a nation that makes policy that hurts others. For example, if there were a nation that said it's okay to murder someone if they're doing something wrong, God would -- AND DOES -- have a problem with that. It's not our job to judge others, but God's, and removing that judgment from God and inflicting it ourselves is one of those things that, I think, God would be totally justified in raining down fire from above. I wonder that we haven't been totally wiped out yet.

I think God would -- and DOES -- judge us, as a nation, for our national policies that inflict pain and suffering on others. We SHOULD be protesting those, but not because we're Christian, but rather because we're human.

Sort of what I was getting at, although you tend to put more stock in laws than I do.

In my mind I was thinking just more frowned upon. Like it's not illegal to cheat on your spouse, but you will be fired from public office for it. I think just that alone would mean more than putting something on the books that says nobody can ever do it ever. It's totally unenforceable on that level, as are quite a few other things (like drugs). People don't deserve prison for adultery (or drug addiction).

Let's just start with holding people accountable, especially those in public office that represent the will of the people.

Caught with crack and prostitutes? Fired. Don't even think about running again.
Caught sending pictures of your dong to people? Fired. Learn to ask if we want fries with that.
Caught cheating on your wife while she's battling cancer? Double fired. How dare you think you could ever represent me.

We adopt this notion that ALL politicians are corrupt so it's like we view them on a curve or something. They represent us and what America has said is that adulterers, drug addicts and criminals are a fair representation of our ideals.

I disagree with that. They should be the best of us.

I know, I know...total idealist.

 

[FSUBoy966]

No. Flat out no. As much as I love Jesus and I would love everyone to be Christian, the fact is that MANY people are not Christian. And in America, our BIGGEST pride is our five 1st Amendment Rights, one of the most important being freedom of religion. Oligarchy and theocracies never work and usually end in a violent coup or civil oppression.

 

[Jullianna]

I don't think Julianna is saying a theocracy would not work because there are people who aren't Christian. I think she's saying it wouldn't work because we're all sinners, and Christians are no less prone to evil than non-Christians. I think she's saying, even if we were to be a theocracy, how would that change our sinfulness?

Thanks, Diva. There are those who believe there's a way to somehow force people into believing and following God. How would that work? Does God want it to work that way? Sure doesn't appear from the scriptures that He wants to be loved by force. And if force would cause everyone to do the right thing, we wouldn't have people in our prisons because they rebel against the laws we already have.

I may have misunderstood the OP's question though. If the question is not whether we should be a theocracy, but how things would be if the entire US population were devout christians who truly walked the walk, I would say it would be amazing! It would be great to have an entire WORLD like that. But I don't think our nation was like that even from the beginning from my study of history.

I'm definitely not a cynic though. I'll tell anyone who'll listen how great our God is.

 

[rainacorn]

I'm not suggesting we do away with democracy or anything. Democracy is supposed to be a fair representation of the people.

What I'm suggesting is that we take more seriously how we choose to be represented. If our politicians are morally corrupt thieves, liars and adulterers and we think elements of our government system are overreaching or unfair, then we should do something about it, right?

I used to get all heated about politics and was an activist, but as I put my faith ahead of everything else and delved into the Word, I became much less interested in politics. Politics is corrupt because people are corrupt. We turn a blind eye because we don't understand it or don't want to know about it, or because fighting against it seems utterly futile. It's a bunch of snakes trying to kill each other and I'm fine to sit back and let them.

But all this talk on the forum lately about Christian Nations and whatnot has me thinking I got it all wrong. I don't think we should be a theocracy and America should be one big church, but I have to ask myself why I don't have a bigger problem with our Representatives being godless douchenozzles. I have to wonder why I'm willing to turn a blind eye to the laundry list of sins against God simply because I agree with their tax policy or their stance on this and that.

Those in positions of leadership need to be held to a higher standard. If we aren't willing to do that, why are we letting them lead us?

 

[Jullianna]

A higher standard than what or whom?

 

[FSUBoy966]

I'm not suggesting we do away with democracy or anything. Democracy is supposed to be a fair representation of the people.

What I'm suggesting is that we take more seriously how we choose to be represented. If our politicians are morally corrupt thieves, liars and adulterers and we think elements of our government system are overreaching or unfair, then we should do something about it, right?

I used to get all heated about politics and was an activist, but as I put my faith ahead of everything else and delved into the Word, I became much less interested in politics. Politics is corrupt because people are corrupt. We turn a blind eye because we don't understand it or don't want to know about it, or because fighting against it seems utterly futile. It's a bunch of snakes trying to kill each other and I'm fine to sit back and let them.

But all this talk on the forum lately about Christian Nations and whatnot has me thinking I got it all wrong. I don't think we should be a theocracy and America should be one big church, but I have to ask myself why I don't have a bigger problem with our Representatives being godless douchenozzles. I have to wonder why I'm willing to turn a blind eye to the laundry list of sins against God simply because I agree with their tax policy or their stance on this and that.

Those in positions of leadership need to be held to a higher standard. If we aren't willing to do that, why are we letting them lead us?

Well not everyone views the world the way we do. You might REALLY like this congressman's stance on taxes but he might support something you hate, and there might be a congresswoman who has your social issue beliefs but is garbage with taxes. People prioritize based on what they feel is most important, and everyone has a different reason for supporting a certain candidate.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

We adopt this notion that ALL politicians are corrupt so it's like we view them on a curve or something. They represent us and what America has said is that adulterers, drug addicts and criminals are a fair representation of our ideals.

Those in positions of leadership need to be held to a higher standard. If we aren't willing to do that, why are we letting them lead us?

I'm not convinced that those in positions of leadership aren't representative of this nation, as a whole.

Also, up to whose standards should we hold them? Secular morality or Christian ethics? What if the representative is not Christian? Should we refrain from electing someone just because he or she is not Christian, even if their actions are above reproach?

I do agree with you to a point: our elected officials should be held to at least the same standards as the rest of us. No more, no less.

 

[rainacorn]

I'm not convinced that those in positions of leadership aren't representative of this nation, as a whole.

sad

Also, up to whose standards should we hold them? Secular morality or Christian ethics? What if the representative is not Christian? Should we refrain from electing someone just because he or she is not Christian, even if their actions are above reproach?

God's standards for leaders.
Christian ethics.
Doesn't matter.
No.

 

[EverlastingChange]

I think it would be boring and depressing. I personally enjoy the variety of cultures, opinoins, and positions that are present in america. it might not be perfect but its better than homogenity.

By the sounds of it you won't enjoy heaven.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

By the sounds of it you won't enjoy heaven.

You think heaven is going to have only white, evangelical Christians in it? How sad.

 

[rainacorn]

You think heaven is going to have only white, evangelical Christians in it? How sad.

Who said anything about white evangelicals?

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Who said anything about white evangelicals?

Well, Megatron commented on appreciating variety in views and in peoples, and EverlastingChange said he would not like heaven. Well, if EC thinks there won't be a variety of views and of peoples in heaven, I'm wonder what he thinks there WILL be in heaven. Thus, the question: is it only white evangelicals that he thinks will be in heaven?

I'm with Megatron. God is not so closed-minded that only one type of person will be in heaven.

 

[rainacorn]

Well, Megatron commented on appreciating variety in views and in peoples, and EverlastingChange said he would not like heaven. Well, if EC thinks there won't be a variety of views and of peoples in heaven, I'm wonder what he thinks there WILL be in heaven. Thus, the question: is it only white evangelicals that he thinks will be in heaven?

I'm with Megatron. God is not so closed-minded that only one type of person will be in heaven.

What types of people will be in Heaven? What human traits will we retain as pure spirits?

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

The United States is a nation with a rich Christian history and a secluar government that has traditionally acknowledged God as the authority for its existence and rule of law. Historically, it has been a Christian nation with a secular government that acknowledges God's existence while incorporating scriptural principles in various ways and allowing for personal freedom of religion and worship (or lack of it).

This is important because properly interpreted scriptural morality is an objective extension of God's own nature. Because of God's existence and objective morality, scriptural morality is ultimately meaningful in the past, the present, and for eternity.

Secular humanism, an atheistic morality built on statistical normality, etc... are all spiritually bankrupt and relativistic counterfeits deliberately designed to remove God from human affairs by non-Christians in line with an anti-Christ spirit. In truth, they are precursors for the state atheism we saw devastate the globe in the 20th century.

Most people I talk to are confused about all of this. For example, some think secularism is state atheism or that our nation is (or should be) purely secular or force state atheism upon the populace as say Russia did last century, etc... and that's not the truth, never was the case and it should not be the case. The reason for this ignorance is the failure of the public education system and most families to teach it anymore.

In fact, if it becomes the case, God will remove his blessing from our country and give it to another who will do better and we will repeat the decline and crash that Russia experienced under state atheism. This road we may already be starting down as Europe has.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I edited my post a bit too make it more informative:

The United States is a nation with a rich Christian history and a secluar government that has traditionally acknowledged God as the authority for its existence and rule of law. Historically, it has been a Christian nation with a secular government that acknowledges God's existence while incorporating scriptural principles in various ways and allowing for personal freedom of religion and worship (or lack of it).

This is important because properly interpreted scriptural morality is an objective extension of God's own nature. Because of God's existence and objective morality, scriptural morality is ultimately meaningful in the past, the present, and for eternity.

Secular humanism, an atheistic morality built on statistical normality, etc... are all spiritually bankrupt and relativistic counterfeits deliberately designed to remove God from human affairs by non-Christians in line with an anti-Christ spirit. In truth, they are precursors for the state atheism we saw devastate the globe in the 20th century.

Most people I talk to are confused about all of this. For example, some think secularism is state atheism or that our nation is (or should be) purely secular or force state atheism upon the populace as say Russia did last century, etc... and that's not the truth, never was the case and it should not be the case. The reason for this ignorance is the failure of the public education system and most families to educate the youth properly anymore in regard to U.S. government, American history, and religion in the United States. Each new edition of textbooks sanitize more of our history and truth to accomplish political objectives. This was not the case until fairly recently in our history (e.g. since the late 1960's).

If America ever turns its back on God, God will remove his blessing from our country and give it to another and we will repeat the decline and crash that Russia experienced under state atheism. This road we may already be starting down as Europe has.