The false claim that the Bible is the sole source of authority ...

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Feb 16, 2011
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#61
We must live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. I don't believe that we should have traditions that are not from the Scripture. We see that the Pharisees are often corrected by Jesus in the New Testament for this sort of thing. They added to the Scripture. We are given traditionis throughout Scripture that I believe we should keep. Adding traditions to the Scripture is dangerous because it must be the Word of God,(which is Scripture). I believe alot of traditions are fables. We are supposed to avoid fables. 1 Timothy 1:4;1Timothy 4:7; 2 Timothy4:4 Titus 1:14;2 Peter 1:16
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#62
We must live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. I don't believe that we should have traditions that are not from the Scripture. We see that the Pharisees are often corrected by Jesus in the New Testament for this sort of thing. They added to the Scripture. We are given traditionis throughout Scripture that I believe we should keep. Adding traditions to the Scripture is dangerous because it must be the Word of God,(which is Scripture). I believe alot of traditions are fables. We are supposed to avoid fables. 1 Timothy 1:4;1Timothy 4:7; 2 Timothy4:4 Titus 1:14;2 Peter 1:16
but jonathan.
the obvious question is:
if there are prophets today, aren't their words as authoritative and infallible as scripture?
and if that's the case, why aren't the RC or EO claims to apostolic succession and infallible authority correct also?

in either case, scripture is not the final word.
 
Feb 16, 2011
2,957
24
0
#63
but jonathan.
the obvious question is:
if there are prophets today, aren't their words as authoritative and infallible as scripture?
and if that's the case, why aren't the RC or EO claims to apostolic succession and infallible authority correct also?

in either case, scripture is not the final word.
No one speaks for God. If someone truly prophesies it is God who is speaking, not the man. We literally claim to be hearing the Holy Spirit speak in tongues and interpretation and prophecy. The person is no longer speaking but is given the utterance by the Holy Spirit that is in them. I've heard alot of people's opinion about this. It's not God telling someone what to say. It's the Holy Spirit saying it. I don't believe that the Roman Catholics or the Eastern Orthodox believers are even saved. They believe works salvation. We know we are saved by grace and faith, not of works lest any man should boast. They don't have the Holy Spirit in them. When I prophesy I am given what to say and type by the Holy Spirit in me. The Holy Spirit speaks to me through tongues and interpretations in English. God literally is talking to me specifically through my mouth.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#64
oh.
mkay....
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#65
No one speaks for God. If someone truly prophesies it is God who is speaking, not the man. We literally claim to be hearing the Holy Spirit speak in tongues and interpretation and prophecy. The person is no longer speaking but is given the utterance by the Holy Spirit that is in them. I've heard alot of people's opinion about this. It's not God telling someone what to say. It's the Holy Spirit saying it. I don't believe that the Roman Catholics or the Eastern Orthodox believers are even saved. They believe works salvation. We know we are saved by grace and faith, not of works lest any man should boast. They don't have the Holy Spirit in them. When I prophesy I am given what to say and type by the Holy Spirit in me. The Holy Spirit speaks to me through tongues and interpretations in English. God literally is talking to me specifically through my mouth.
Because you can somehow see into the hearts of all us Catholic and Orthodox Christians and know we're not saved eh?

And still preaching the whole "works salvation" canard eh? Could you at least do us the slightest bit of courtesy and read up on what we actually do teach -vs- what you think we do?
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#66
but jonathan.
the obvious question is:
if there are prophets today, aren't their words as authoritative and infallible as scripture?
and if that's the case, why aren't the RC or EO claims to apostolic succession and infallible authority correct also?

in either case, scripture is not the final word.
Dear Zone,
Why do Protestants say "the Church needed "reformed" after 1,500 years", when Matthew 16:18 doesn't say that? God bless you. In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington August 2011 AD


 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#67
[quote=dscherck;521257]Because you can somehow see into the hearts of all us Catholic and Orthodox Christians and know we're not saved eh?

And still preaching the whole "works salvation" canard eh? Could you at least do us the slightest bit of courtesy and read up on what we actually do teach -vs- what you think we do?[/quote]


St.Matthew 16:18; I St. Timothy 3:15 -- Orthodox Catholic Church.

 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#68
Because you can somehow see into the hearts of all us Catholic and Orthodox Christians and know we're not saved eh?

And still preaching the whole "works salvation" canard eh? Could you at least do us the slightest bit of courtesy and read up on what we actually do teach -vs- what you think we do.

Dear jonathanbchristian, No "works salvation". Scriptures:

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." Gal. 5:6 NKJV

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of wo0rks, lest anyone should bast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10 NKJV

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Philippians 2"12-13 NKJV

"But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, ..." Titus 3:4-5 NKJV

"You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." James 2:24 NKJV
"for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also". James 2:26 NKJV

Both God's mercy and not works of righteousness (Titus 3:5) and also faith and works (James 2:24, Eph. 2:8-10) save Christians.

In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington August 2011 AD
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#69
Dear Zone,
Why do Protestants say "the Church needed "reformed" after 1,500 years", when Matthew 16:18 doesn't say that? God bless you. In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington August 2011 AD
Matthew 16:18
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

um....HA?
the Reformation is PROOF The Lord keeps His own.

Question: "What was the Protestant Reformation?"

Answer:
In understanding the history of Protestant Church and the Reformation, it is important to first understand that one of the claims that the Roman Catholic Church makes is that of apostolic succession. This simply means that they claim a unique authority over all other churches and denominations because they claim the line of Roman Catholic Popes back throughout the centuries, all the way to the Apostle Peter. In their view, this gives the Roman Catholic Church a unique authority that supersedes all other denominations or churches. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, this apostolic succession is only “found in the Catholic Church” and no “separate Churches have any valid claim to it.”

It is because of this apostolic succession that the Roman Catholic Church claims a unique authority to interpret Scripture and to establish doctrine, as well the claim of having a supreme leader in the Pope who is infallible (without error) when speaking “ex cathedra”—that is, in the exercise of his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians. Therefore, according to the Roman Catholic view, the teaching or traditions of the Roman Catholic Church as they come from the Pope are equally as infallible and authoritative as the Scriptures themselves. This is one of the major differences between Roman Catholics and Protestants and was one of the foundational reasons for the Protestant Reformation.

Of course, the Roman Catholics are not the only ones who try to claim unique authority through apostolic succession or by tracing the roots of their church back to the original apostles. The Eastern Orthodox Church also claims apostolic succession, although their claim is very similar to the Roman Catholic view. The split between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism did not occur until the “Great Schism” in A.D. 1054.

1-“Sola Scriptura,” or Scripture Alone: This affirms the Biblical doctrine that the Bible alone is the sole authority for all matters of faith and practice. Scripture and Scripture alone is the standard by which all teachings and doctrines of the church must be measured. As Martin Luther so eloquently stated when asked to recant on his teachings, "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen."

2—“Sola Gratia,” Salvation by Grace Alone: This affirms the Biblical doctrine that salvation is by God’s grace alone and that we are rescued from His wrath by His grace alone. God’s grace in Christ is not merely necessary, but is the sole efficient cause of salvation. This grace is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ by releasing us from our bondage to sin and raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life.

3—“Sola Fide,” Salvation by Faith Alone: This affirms the Biblical doctrine that justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. It is by faith in Christ that His righteousness is imputed to us as the only possible satisfaction of God’s perfect justice.

4—“Solus Christus,” In Christ Alone: This affirms the Biblical doctrine that salvation is found in Christ alone and that His sinless life and substitutionary atonement alone are sufficient for our justification and reconciliation to God the Father. The gospel has not been preached if Christ’s substitutionary work is not declared, and if faith in Christ and His work is not solicited.

5—“Soli Deo Gloria, For the Glory of God Alone: This affirms the Biblical doctrine that salvation is of God and has been accomplished by God for His glory alone. It affirms that as Christians we must glorify Him always, and must live our entire lives before the face of God, under the authority of God, and for His glory alone.

These five important and fundamental doctrines are the reason for the Protestant Reformation. They are at the heart of where the Roman Catholic Church went wrong in its doctrine, and why the Protestant Reformation was necessary to return churches throughout the world to correct doctrine and biblical teaching. They are just as important today in evaluating a church and its teachings as they were then. In many ways, much of Protestant Christianity needs to be challenged to return to these fundamental doctrines of the faith, much like the reformers challenged the Roman Catholic Church to do in the sixteenth century.

What was the Protestant Reformation?
 
K

kujo313

Guest
#70
We also claim to have started at Pentecost so that really proves nothing. I'm going to need some bona fide historical documentation.
There is. Josephus wrote about followers of Jesus.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#71
There is. Josephus wrote about followers of Jesus.
So? We know that they believed as we Catholics do. We have their writings.
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#72
We must live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. I don't believe that we should have traditions that are not from the Scripture. We see that the Pharisees are often corrected by Jesus in the New Testament for this sort of thing. They added to the Scripture. We are given traditionis throughout Scripture that I believe we should keep. Adding traditions to the Scripture is dangerous Friend: Not according to 2 Thessalonians 2:15. Scott because it must be the Word of God,(which is Scripture). I believe alot of traditions are fables. We are supposed to avoid fables. 1 Timothy 1:4;1Timothy 4:7; 2 Timothy4:4 Titus 1:14;2 Peter 1:16
 
S

SantoSubito

Guest
#73
There is. Josephus wrote about followers of Jesus.
Yeah my point was I'm going to need some historical documentation that the early Christians believed as you did, or that any church believed as you did before the Reformation.
 
K

kujo313

Guest
#74
Yeah my point was I'm going to need some historical documentation that the early Christians believed as you did, or that any church believed as you did before the Reformation.
Then you're going to have to answer to how Jesus taught us to pray and why from Acts to Jude as to why there is nothing about a "queen mother" or how any of them asked a dead (or alive in Heaven) person to pray to God for them after Paul wrote that Jesus is interceding to God for us.

Nobody in the first century had statues or went to Mary for anything.

Finally, what are some examples for which the Bible does not answer?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#75
No one speaks for God. If someone truly prophesies it is God who is speaking, not the man. We literally claim to be hearing the Holy Spirit speak in tongues and interpretation and prophecy. The person is no longer speaking but is given the utterance by the Holy Spirit that is in them.
so you claim the HS speaks through you. As do they. And both of you claim your words are equal with scripture. seems like we have a problem here. Which one is right?

Oh Wait. I know. I will follow Scripture. Test all things, (including those who claim to be prophets, or are spoken to by God.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#76
So? We know that they believed as we Catholics do. We have their writings.
no, you have the writings of the ones you did not destroy. Your church even admitting to destroying all documents which they considered heretical. So we will never know if they all believed as you do. Your church made sure no one would know.

But thats ok. We have God's written word. and we can know Gods truth.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#77
Yeah my point was I'm going to need some historical documentation that the early Christians believed as you did, or that any church believed as you did before the Reformation.
That would be hard since Rome destroyed such documents. Don;y you know those in power destroy things which are apposed to them?

Thats why we have Gods word. we know its pure and not tainted.
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#78
Matthew 16:18
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

um....HA?
the Reformation is PROOF The Lord keeps His own.

Question: "What was the Protestant Reformation?"

Answer:
In understanding the history of Protestant Church and the Reformation, it is important to first understand that one of the claims that the Roman Catholic Church makes is that of apostolic succession. This simply means that they claim a unique authority over all other churches and denominations because they claim the line of Roman Catholic Popes back throughout the centuries, all the way to the Apostle Peter. In their view, this gives the Roman Catholic Church a unique authority that supersedes all other denominations or churches. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, this apostolic succession is only “found in the Catholic Church” and no “separate Churches have any valid claim to it.”

It is because of this apostolic succession that the Roman Catholic Church claims a unique authority to interpret Scripture and to establish doctrine, as well the claim of having a supreme leader in the Pope who is infallible (without error) when speaking “ex cathedra”—that is, in the exercise of his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians. Therefore, according to the Roman Catholic view, the teaching or traditions of the Roman Catholic Church as they come from the Pope are equally as infallible and authoritative as the Scriptures themselves. This is one of the major differences between Roman Catholics and Protestants and was one of the foundational reasons for the Protestant Reformation.

Of course, the Roman Catholics are not the only ones who try to claim unique authority through apostolic succession or by tracing the roots of their church back to the original apostles. The Eastern Orthodox Church also claims apostolic succession, although their claim is very similar to the Roman Catholic view. The split between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism did not occur until the “Great Schism” in A.D. 1054.

1-“Sola Scriptura,” or Scripture Alone: This affirms the Biblical doctrine that the Bible alone is the sole authority for all matters of faith and practice. Scripture and Scripture alone is the standard by which all teachings and doctrines of the church must be measured. As Martin Luther so eloquently stated when asked to recant on his teachings, "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen."

2—“Sola Gratia,” Salvation by Grace Alone: This affirms the Biblical doctrine that salvation is by God’s grace alone and that we are rescued from His wrath by His grace alone. God’s grace in Christ is not merely necessary, but is the sole efficient cause of salvation. This grace is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ by releasing us from our bondage to sin and raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life.

3—“Sola Fide,” Salvation by Faith Alone: This affirms the Biblical doctrine that justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. It is by faith in Christ that His righteousness is imputed to us as the only possible satisfaction of God’s perfect justice.

4—“Solus Christus,” In Christ Alone: This affirms the Biblical doctrine that salvation is found in Christ alone and that His sinless life and substitutionary atonement alone are sufficient for our justification and reconciliation to God the Father. The gospel has not been preached if Christ’s substitutionary work is not declared, and if faith in Christ and His work is not solicited.

5—“Soli Deo Gloria, For the Glory of God Alone: This affirms the Biblical doctrine that salvation is of God and has been accomplished by God for His glory alone. It affirms that as Christians we must glorify Him always, and must live our entire lives before the face of God, under the authority of God, and for His glory alone.

These five important and fundamental doctrines are the reason for the Protestant Reformation. They are at the heart of where the Roman Catholic Church went wrong in its doctrine, and why the Protestant Reformation was necessary to return churches throughout the world to correct doctrine and biblical teaching. They are just as important today in evaluating a church and its teachings as they were then. In many ways, much of Protestant Christianity needs to be challenged to return to these fundamental doctrines of the faith, much like the reformers challenged the Roman Catholic Church to do in the sixteenth century.

What was the Protestant Reformation?
Dear Zone, If the papacy is the Antichrist, as Luther claimed, and Luther tried to reform the papacy, then what you get is a reformed Antichrist. You don't get the Church that Christ founded (Matt. 16:18), and you don't get the faith once delivered unto the saints (Jude 3), you don't get the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15). In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#79
Dear Zone, If the papacy is the Antichrist, as Luther claimed, and Luther tried to reform the papacy, then what you get is a reformed Antichrist. You don't get the Church that Christ founded (Matt. 16:18), and you don't get the faith once delivered unto the saints (Jude 3), you don't get the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15). In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

your right. you won't get it from either of those "MEN". You will get it from the WORD OF GOD
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#80
That would be hard since Rome destroyed such documents. Don;y you know those in power destroy things which are apposed to them?

Thats why we have Gods word. we know its pure and not tainted.
Yeah, except this claim is easily proven false by even the most casual study of Church history. We don't destroy them, we tend to keep them alongside explanations of why they're wrong so future generations can see the Truth. That's why we still have the writings of Arius, the gnostics, etc.