Predestination is misunderstood...

[Johann]

Why then is there the call that all men should repent?

The call for all people to repent is a consistent theme throughout the Bible, as it reflects God's desire for humans to turn from sin and return to a right relationship with Him. Some key verses supporting this include:
Ezekiel 18:21-23 – God promises to forget the sins of those who turn from their ways and live righteously

John 3:16 – Jesus states that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life


Acts 3:19 – Peter urges the people to repent and be converted, that their sins may be blotted out

2 Corinthians 7:9-10 – Paul describes how genuine repentance leads to godly sorrow, resulting in salvation and restoration

Revelation 2:5 – Jesus exhorts the church in Ephesus to remember their former works, repent, and do the first works

Repentance is a fundamental aspect of the Christian faith, requiring a sincere change of heart and mind, followed by a transformation in lifestyle. By seeking forgiveness and committing to a new life, Christians demonstrate their trust in God's grace and mercy
J.

 

[Cameron143]

Why then is there the call that all men should repent?

Because it is right in the sight of the Lord. All mankind has a responsibility before God whether they acknowledge it or not by virtue of creation. And God is gracious to all. The sun shines on the just and the unjust. The rain is given so all can eat. The gospel is preached to every creature.

Question: is God glorified equally in all His attributes? Is He as glorified in the exercise of His love as He is in the exercise of His justice?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The call for all people to repent is a consistent theme throughout the Bible, as it reflects God's desire for humans to turn from sin and return to a right relationship with Him. Some key verses supporting this include:
Ezekiel 18:21-23 – God promises to forget the sins of those who turn from their ways and live righteously

John 3:16 – Jesus states that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life


Acts 3:19 – Peter urges the people to repent and be converted, that their sins may be blotted out

2 Corinthians 7:9-10 – Paul describes how genuine repentance leads to godly sorrow, resulting in salvation and restoration

Revelation 2:5 – Jesus exhorts the church in Ephesus to remember their former works, repent, and do the first works

Repentance is a fundamental aspect of the Christian faith, requiring a sincere change of heart and mind, followed by a transformation in lifestyle. By seeking forgiveness and committing to a new life, Christians demonstrate their trust in God's grace and mercy
J.

You can not repent without being empowered by the Holy spirit.


John 16:8

New International Version



8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:

Just like you can't be saved completely unless your baptised in water with the holy spirit.

 

[Johann]

You can not repent without being empowered by the Holy spirit.


John 16:8

New International Version



8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:

Just like you can't be saved completely unless your baptised in water with the holy spirit.

The word "repentance" in Christianity comes from the Greek word "metanoia," which means a change of mind or heart. In the Bible, repentance is defined as a complete change of orientation involving a judgment upon the past and a deliberate turning away from sin and self, towards God

. Repentance involves a heartfelt conviction of sin, contrition over the offense to God, and a turning away from a sinful way of life, towards a God-honoring way of life. It is a freely-willed, internally fostered process of contrition and mourning for having distanced oneself from God through sin

Scripture references to repentance include:

"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matthew 3:2).

"Repent, and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:15).

"Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).

"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" (Acts 2:38).

"Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death" (2 Corinthians 7:10).
The concept that repentance is empowered by the Holy Spirit is a fundamental belief in Christianity. It is understood that the Holy Spirit enables and empowers individuals to recognize their need for repentance, to turn away from sin, and to turn towards God. This empowerment is seen as a gift from God, providing the strength and conviction necessary for genuine repentance. The Holy Spirit is believed to work in the hearts of individuals, leading them to acknowledge their sins, seek forgiveness, and make the necessary changes in their lives. This understanding is based on various biblical passages and is a central aspect of Christian theology
Repentance is considered essential for salvation and is emphasized in the teachings of Jesus, John the Baptist, and the apostles
J.

 

[Mem]

Because it is right in the sight of the Lord. All mankind has a responsibility before God whether they acknowledge it or not by virtue of creation. And God is gracious to all. The sun shines on the just and the unjust. The rain is given so all can eat. The gospel is preached to every creature.

Question: is God glorified equally in all His attributes? Is He as glorified in the exercise of His love as He is in the exercise of His justice?

Yes, but I'm missing the pertinence of the application of that reality toward the refutation of my view. There is a godly sorrow that leads to repentance and there's an earthly sorrow. Godly sorrow is that which is felt and, according to 2 Corinthians 7:9, is "that God had intended." That is in accordance with the sorrow God desired to see in them, because this sorrow produces..."11Consider what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what zeal, what vindication! In every way you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter." This chapter strikes me as an elaboration of godly sorrow that understands the love of God and thus overflows to others as such and, I gather and suppose rightly so that, earthly sorrow only demonstrates the love of self.

 

[Johann]

Yes, but I'm missing the pertinence of the application of that reality toward the refutation of my view. There is a godly sorrow that leads to repentance and there's an earthly sorrow. Godly sorrow is that which is felt and, according to 2 Corinthians 7:9, is "that God had intended." That is in accordance with the sorrow God desired to see in them, because this sorrow produces..."11Consider what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what zeal, what vindication! In every way you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter." This chapter strikes me as an elaboration of godly sorrow that understands the love of God and thus overflows to others as such and, I gather and suppose rightly so that, earthly sorrow only demonstrates the love of self.

Godly sorrow and worldly sorrow are distinct concepts discussed in the Bible. The phrase "godly sorrow" is found in 2 Corinthians 7:10, which states, "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death" (NIV). This verse contrasts the outcomes of godly sorrow and worldly sorrow.

Godly sorrow is a deep sense of sadness and remorse over one's sins, which leads to genuine repentance and ultimately to salvation. It is characterized by a recognition of having offended God, a desire to turn away from sin, and a willingness to make amends. This type of sorrow is rooted in a genuine concern for the holiness of God and the impact of one's actions on others.

On the other hand, worldly sorrow is self-centered and focused on the consequences of sin, rather than on the offense it causes to God. It does not lead to true repentance and ultimately results in spiritual death. Worldly sorrow is characterized by self-pity, regret over being caught, and a lack of genuine change in behavior.

In summary, godly sorrow leads to genuine repentance and salvation, while worldly sorrow leads to spiritual death. The distinction between the two types of sorrow emphasizes the importance of a sincere and God-centered repentance in the Christian faith.
J.

 

[sawdust]

Many, many Scripture references in the New Testament re the wicked, immoral people on their way to eternal separation and destruction with the wrath of God Presently abiding upon them brother!
J.

So? How does that negate God's grace and mercy? It's not like they never knew God existed. Everyone is shown the truth at the basic level ie. God is.

Romans 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

There are others who take the opposite route. They accept the truth and like what they see and so seek Him and He continues to draw that person with more and more truth, namely He is good, they are wrong, they will be judged accordingly and therefore are without hope. Now the Gospel can enter the situation and have real meaning, giving both hope and life, the sure and certain promises of God. God's grace is always the initiator but our hearts are not evil. If they were, we could not be drawn. It is those who learn from God that are given to Christ.

John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Belief in Christ is the end goal of God's drawing process. No-one comes unwillingly.

 

[sawdust]

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;-

Eph 2:1 Καὶ Kai|G2532|Conj|And ὑμᾶς hymas|G4771|PPro-A2P|you, ὄντας ontas|G1510|V-PPA-AMP|being νεκροὺς nekrous|G3498|Adj-AMP|dead τοῖς tois|G3588|Art-DNP|in the παραπτώμασιν paraptōmasin|G3900|N-DNP|trespasses καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|and ταῖς tais|G3588|Art-DFP|the ἁμαρτίαις hamartiais|G266|N-DFP|sins ὑμῶν, hymōn|G4771|PPro-G2P|of you,


And you did he quicken (kai humās). The verb for did he quicken does not occur till Eph_2:5 and then with hēmās (us) instead of humās (you). There is a like ellipsis or anacoluthon in Col_1:21, Col_1:22, only there is no change from humās to hēmās.
When ye were dead (ontas nekrous). Present active participle referring to their/our former state. Spiritually dead.

dead -- Refers to being separated from God and under the rule of the evil one (see v. 2 and note). Paul’s use of the metaphor of death is significant, as it allows for no middle ground; a person is either dead or alive. - FSB


I'll stop right here and let the preponderance of text sink in.
J.

Yes, I have said we were spiritually dead. Again, so? It means we have no capacity to know God and therefore are cut off from Him. This does not make our hearts intrinsically evil.

 

[Magenta]

Acts 17:30

 

[Magenta]

Yes, I have said we were spiritually dead. Again, so? It means we have no capacity to know
God and therefore are cut off from Him. This does not make our hearts intrinsically evil.

Romans 3:10-12

 

[sawdust]

The heart is the wellspring of life. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. It is the substance of the heart that controls our thoughts and actions.
And we are born opposed to God...Ephesians 2:1-3, Romans 3:10 and following.

Look, the issue isn't whether we are born opposed to God, the issue is from where does that opposition originate. It does not begin in the heart, it begins in the flesh. Between our flesh, the devil and the world, the heart becomes corrupt but it does not start that way. Good and evil must be learned. The reason we can't help but sin is because of the corruption in our flesh. It locks us into depravity and only by the mercies and grace of God can we be released from the bondage of the flesh.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes, but I'm missing the pertinence of the application of that reality toward the refutation of my view. There is a godly sorrow that leads to repentance and there's an earthly sorrow. Godly sorrow is that which is felt and, according to 2 Corinthians 7:9, is "that God had intended." That is in accordance with the sorrow God desired to see in them, because this sorrow produces..."11Consider what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what zeal, what vindication! In every way you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter." This chapter strikes me as an elaboration of godly sorrow that understands the love of God and thus overflows to others as such and, I gather and suppose rightly so that, earthly sorrow only demonstrates the love of self.

I must be missing something. Can you state it again for me please?

 

[sawdust]

Romans 3:10-12

Yes, when we are all under sin which, is the charge (Roms.3:9) and there is no grace and mercy to be found? We all end up as absolute no-gooders.

Hopefully people will start listening within context.

 

[Cameron143]

Look, the issue isn't whether we are born opposed to God, the issue is from where does that opposition originate. It does not begin in the heart, it begins in the flesh. Between our flesh, the devil and the world, the heart becomes corrupt but it does not start that way. Good and evil must be learned. The reason we can't help but sin is because of the corruption in our flesh. It locks us into depravity and only by the mercies and grace of God can we be released from the bondage of the flesh.

According to Jeremiah 17:9 the heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things. That sounds like the source of the problem to me. You are free to disagree.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The word "repentance" in Christianity comes from the Greek word "metanoia," which means a change of mind or heart. In the Bible, repentance is defined as a complete change of orientation involving a judgment upon the past and a deliberate turning away from sin and self, towards God

. Repentance involves a heartfelt conviction of sin, contrition over the offense to God, and a turning away from a sinful way of life, towards a God-honoring way of life. It is a freely-willed, internally fostered process of contrition and mourning for having distanced oneself from God through sin

Scripture references to repentance include:

"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matthew 3:2).

"Repent, and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:15).

"Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).

"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" (Acts 2:38).

"Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death" (2 Corinthians 7:10).
The concept that repentance is empowered by the Holy Spirit is a fundamental belief in Christianity. It is understood that the Holy Spirit enables and empowers individuals to recognize their need for repentance, to turn away from sin, and to turn towards God. This empowerment is seen as a gift from God, providing the strength and conviction necessary for genuine repentance. The Holy Spirit is believed to work in the hearts of individuals, leading them to acknowledge their sins, seek forgiveness, and make the necessary changes in their lives. This understanding is based on various biblical passages and is a central aspect of Christian theology
Repentance is considered essential for salvation and is emphasized in the teachings of Jesus, John the Baptist, and the apostles
J.

Well I believe it's this way



John 3:36

New International Version



36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

Then it

The word "repentance" in Christianity comes from the Greek word "metanoia," which means a change of mind or heart. In the Bible, repentance is defined as a complete change of orientation involving a judgment upon the past and a deliberate turning away from sin and self, towards God

. Repentance involves a heartfelt conviction of sin, contrition over the offense to God, and a turning away from a sinful way of life, towards a God-honoring way of life. It is a freely-willed, internally fostered process of contrition and mourning for having distanced oneself from God through sin

Scripture references to repentance include:

"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matthew 3:2).

"Repent, and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:15).

"Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).

"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" (Acts 2:38).

"Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death" (2 Corinthians 7:10).
The concept that repentance is empowered by the Holy Spirit is a fundamental belief in Christianity. It is understood that the Holy Spirit enables and empowers individuals to recognize their need for repentance, to turn away from sin, and to turn towards God. This empowerment is seen as a gift from God, providing the strength and conviction necessary for genuine repentance. The Holy Spirit is believed to work in the hearts of individuals, leading them to acknowledge their sins, seek forgiveness, and make the necessary changes in their lives. This understanding is based on various biblical passages and is a central aspect of Christian theology
Repentance is considered essential for salvation and is emphasized in the teachings of Jesus, John the Baptist, and the apostles
J.

Well I believe it's this way



John 3:36

New International Version

In order to repent you must believe in the son first.

36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

Then its this.
Mark 16:16 NIV
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Then its this


This would be why this is said
Repent, and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:15).

Because in order to repent you must believe first.


When you believe in the the son, the Holy Spirit should come upon you. Then you repent.

Because of this

John 16:8

New International Version



8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:


Well if you don't have the Holy spirit come upon you you will not repent.

Then this will not happen.

Act 2.38 be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ everyone of you to receive the Gift of the holy spirit.


No Holy Spirit come upon you means no repentance.

You can change your mind all you like.

But without the Holy Spirit to baptize you in water, there is no remission of sin and no repentance, and no being risen in the resurrected christ, no washing of your blood, no atonement for your blood or your sin, no completely being saved, and you will have to wait until your dead to see if you will receive salvation 😊

So you can continue to preach a false Gospel all you like, as I've got use to your heresies now.

 

[Genez]

. Ok Mr preacher but I go with the notion true believers are not sleepers anymore but thanks anyway.

They have risen from the dead with Christ.

But thanks for putting me in a box anyway 😊

Believers can really screw up their lives here on earth....

Paul warned the emotion-driven Corinthians about wanting to do things their own way that they preferred, not God's way.

For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment ​

on themselves. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have ​

fallen asleep. But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come ​

under such judgment. Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are ​

being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world."​

1 Corinthians 11:29-32

 

[Dino246]

I believe they are one in the same. I posted scripture to show.

You can believe what you want, but the verses you posted don't support your assertions that the righteousness of God IS the faith of Jesus Christ (or vice-versa) or that the faith of Christ is imputed to believers.

 

[sawdust]

According to Jeremiah 17:9 the heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things. That sounds like the source of the problem to me. You are free to disagree.

You most probably don't realise it, but by saying the heart is the source of the problem, then you are saying God creates the soul evil.

 

[Genez]

According to Jeremiah 17:9 the heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things. That sounds like the source of the problem to me. You are free to disagree.

Why was the Lord telling Jeremiah that? What was the context?
Does that mean Jeremiah's soul was desperately wicked and deceitful?

 

[Johann]

Yes, I have said we were spiritually dead. Again, so? It means we have no capacity to know God and therefore are cut off from Him. This does not make our hearts intrinsically evil.

Disagree.
J.