Predestination is misunderstood...

[Johann]

Yes, I have said we were spiritually dead. Again, so? It means we have no capacity to know God and therefore are cut off from Him. This does not make our hearts intrinsically evil.

Incorrect-

The phrase "our hearts intrinsically evil" is not found in the Bible. However, the Bible does teach that the human heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. Jeremiah 17:9 says, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (KJV).

This verse speaks of the human heart's sinfulness and its incurable nature. The Hebrew word translated as "desperately wicked" has the idea of a terminal, incurable illness

. This concept is also found in Romans 1-3, which speaks of the total depravity of mankind

. Total depravity does not mean that every person is as bad as they can be, but that every person is completely consumed by sin and there is no hope of turning it around and "getting better" on their own

. The only solution is for God to make our hearts new, washed clean from sin and fundamentally reoriented toward pleasing Him

. Therefore, while the Bible does not say that our hearts are intrinsically evil, it does teach that the human heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, and that only God can change it.

let's stay with what stands written and not lean on our own understanding of the text.
J.

 

[Cameron143]

The premise of your position is that we have no choice unless it is given to us. And my position doesn't reject that reality. We've confounded our own desire to not die by doing that which brought death which on the surface (your view imo) is sin but at the root is unbelief (imho) and that leaves us no choice other than death. So, if Jesus only enables some to make the choice to live, then He did not die for the sins of the world but only for the those who believe, namely, the elect (your reality). However, if Jesus restored the capability of choice by eliminating sin as the hindrance to the ability to choose, then there is only unbelief that stands between life and death. And this, in my view, is how He chose us while we were yet sinners. He chose to die for the sins of the world so that those that take advantage (which doesn't take any work) of the way (i.e., choosing it, that is, taken by faith) might have eternal life.

I see.
I do agree that all come into the world, or at least, are conceived in sin and unbelief. But unbelief is simply a condition of being dead spiritually. We have spiritual blindness, deafness, etc. All of these things are together, and more, what it means to be spiritually dead. We don't have any control over this. It's how we are born.
The problem comes in because we have no recognition or understanding of our estate as the walking dead. Because our minds, and heart, and wills still function, we imagine all is fine. But everything about us is natural and separated from God. We are carnal and at enmity with God. Rather than living in dependence upon Him, we live independently of Him. This robs God of His glory and continues our spiral into more and deeper sin. And because we were made to live in communion and fellowship with God, we begin to fill that place within us that only God can satisfy with carnal things that cannot satisfy.
If God does not intercede, nothing will change for us. Because we do not place our faith in Christ, we remain under condemnation and will eventually perish. God doesn't have to make people for destruction. Mankind destroys itself apart from God.

Why God does things this way is God's sovereign choice. I could share with you the beauty I find in it if you like. But I think for many, the idea that God's love outweighs His other attributes, and that it doesn't seem fair of God or loving not to deliver all people, it is easier to imagine it is people themselves who should bear the blame for unbelief. And on one level this is certainly true. On another level, it is not.

These things are often very emotional issues for people. Truth doesn't always comport to our understanding. And coming to truth often involves rearranging our understanding of who God actually is. I've found this difficult in my own life as well. But I can honestly say that when I have come to understand God as He actually is, He has always been grander and more majestic than I ever imagined.

 

[Dino246]

Well I believe it's this way



John 3:36

New International Version



36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

Then it

Well I believe it's this way



John 3:36

New International Version

In order to repent you must believe in the son first.

36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

Then its this.
Mark 16:16 NIV
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Then its this


This would be why this is said
Repent, and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:15).

Because in order to repent you must believe first.


When you believe in the the son, the Holy Spirit should come upon you. Then you repent.

Because of this

John 16:8

New International Version



8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:


Well if you don't have the Holy spirit come upon you you will not repent.

Then this will not happen.

Act 2.38 be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ everyone of you to receive the Gift of the holy spirit.


No Holy Spirit come upon you means no repentance.

You can change your mind all you like.

But without the Holy Spirit to baptize you in water, there is no remission of sin and no repentance, and no being risen in the resurrected christ, no washing of your blood, no atonement for your blood or your sin, no completely being saved, and you will have to wait until your dead to see if you will receive salvation 😊

So you can continue to preach a false Gospel all you like, as I've got use to your heresies now.

You have it backwards.

John 3:36, Mark 16:16, and John 16:8 are irrelevant, saying nothing whatsoever about the order of events. Mark 1:15 clearly puts "repent" before "believe". Plus, somehow you have overlooked the following evidence that absolutely destroys your position:

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mem]

I see.
I do agree that all come into the world, or at least, are conceived in sin and unbelief. But unbelief is simply a condition of being dead spiritually. We have spiritual blindness, deafness, etc. All of these things are together, and more, what it means to be spiritually dead. We don't have any control over this. It's how we are born.
The problem comes in because we have no recognition or understanding of our estate as the walking dead. Because our minds, and heart, and wills still function, we imagine all is fine. But everything about us is natural and separated from God. We are carnal and at enmity with God. Rather than living in dependence upon Him, we live independently of Him. This robs God of His glory and continues our spiral into more and deeper sin. And because we were made to live in communion and fellowship with God, we begin to fill that place within us that only God can satisfy with carnal things that cannot satisfy.
If God does not intercede, nothing will change for us. Because we do not place our faith in Christ, we remain under condemnation and will eventually perish. God doesn't have to make people for destruction. Mankind destroys itself apart from God.

Why God does things this way is God's sovereign choice. I could share with you the beauty I find in it if you like. But I think for many, the idea that God's love outweighs His other attributes, and that it doesn't seem fair of God or loving not to deliver all people, it is easier to imagine it is people themselves who should bear the blame for unbelief. And on one level this is certainly true. On another level, it is not.

These things are often very emotional issues for people. Truth doesn't always comport to our understanding. And coming to truth often involves rearranging our understanding of who God actually is. I've found this difficult in my own life as well. But I can honestly say that when I have come to understand God as He actually is, He has always been grander and more majestic than I ever imagined.

I don't believe God to be any less grand or majestic, even if you fancy that I might.
"For the creation was subject to futility...because of the One who subjected it, in hope...We know that the whole creation has been groaning... in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see?"
This is a rhetorical question, "Who hopes for what he can already see?" which I'd gather the answer hinted of as, "those with no hope at all, or iow, those reluctant to employ any degree of faith."

 

[Cameron143]

I don't believe God to be any less grand or majestic, even if you fancy that I might.
"For the creation was subject to futility...because of the One who subjected it, in hope...We know that the whole creation has been groaning... in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see?"
This is a rhetorical question, "Who hopes for what he can already see?" which I'd gather the answer hinted of as, "those with no hope at all, or iow, those reluctant to employ any degree of faith."

My apologies. I never intended to suggest your understanding of God to be anything less than grand or majestic.

 

[Mem]

My apologies. I never intended to suggest your understanding of God to be anything less than grand or majestic.

I appreciate your saying that. And I do try to keep in mind the practice to employ charity in my interpretation of other's intentions. However, I did not want to leave any room for lack in the effort to dispel any comparison that might've develop from the reading.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

You have it backwards.

John 3:36, Mark 16:16, and John 16:8 are irrelevant, saying nothing whatsoever about the order of events. Mark 1:15 clearly puts "repent" before "believe". Plus, somehow you have overlooked the following evidence that absolutely destroys your position:

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I'm not surprised you would disagree.

 

[Dino246]

I'm not surprised you would disagree.

There's a helpful contribution. I disagree with you because I agree with Scripture, and you don't... at least on this matter.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

There's a helpful contribution. I disagree with you because I agree with Scripture, and you don't... at least on this matter.

Scripture is not in chronological order, there nothing backwards about it.

Your views, are your views. and what you take from the word is down to you, it shouldn't be down to the general opinion, that's probably had its origins from people who have saved themself's, and from cleaver people with words, who have hit your appraisal meter.

What ever your views are I don't know.

I would want to know if you believe being baptised in water has any part of salvation.

If your answer is no, then im not going to argue with you. Because someone of your intelligence should know better.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Believing in Jesus is revealing that you are a saved one.
That God has finished His work in you to redeem you.

grace and peace ..............

yeah agreed ….we need to actually believe what he said though about being saved he said a lot about it the one we all believe in said a lot about salvation

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Accepting Jesus is a fundamental concept in Christianity, and it is often associated with verses from the Bible. While the phrase "accepting Jesus" may not be explicitly mentioned in the Bible, the concept is supported by various verses. Some of the key verses that are often referenced in this context include:

1. John 3:16 (ESV) - "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
2. Romans 10:9 (ESV) - "Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
3. Acts 2:38 (ESV) - "And Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'"

These verses emphasize the importance of belief, confession, and repentance in relation to salvation and acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior
. While the specific phrase "accepting Jesus" may not be found verbatim in the Bible, the concept is derived from these and other related passages.

J.

Yes of course we have to believe in Jesus …. We know that because he said it

 

[Dino246]

Scripture is not in chronological order, there nothing backwards about it.

While not all of Scripture is in chronological order, there is no chronological ambiguity in Peter's statement. Repent, believe, be baptised, receive the Holy Spirit. The words are in the order the events happen.

I would want to know if you believe being baptised in water has any part of salvation.

Red herring. Let's deal with one issue at a time.

 

[Fundaamental]

While not all of Scripture is in chronological order, there is no chronological ambiguity in Peter's statement. Repent, believe, be baptised, receive the Holy Spirit. The words are in the order the events happen.


Red herring. Let's deal with one issue at a time.

Lots of things are red herrings around here, im just wanting to know what you believe before I get involved in useless discussion.

Do you believe water baptism has any part in salvation yes or no.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Lots of things are red herrings around here, im just wanting to know what you believe before I get involved in useless discussion.

Do you believe water baptism has any part in salvation yes or no.

Oops cookies again i logged in with the wrong account lol.

Looks like I've not been deleted yet and somebody loves me, woppeeeee

 

[Dino246]

Lots of things are red herrings around here, im just wanting to know what you believe before I get involved in useless discussion.

Do you believe water baptism has any part in salvation yes or no.

You're trying to change the subject away from the issue on which I challenged you. I'm not interested. Let's deal with your backwards understanding of the process of salvation.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

You're trying to change the subject away from the issue on which I challenged you. I'm not interested. Let's deal with your backwards understanding of the process of salvation.

No im not going backwards, marks starts of by saying believe in The gospel and you will be saved.

I quoted what was to follow first before going back to the beginning of mark.

Your insinuation is i have flipped the scripture, and neither will you state your faith, which you are required to do.


Scripture will not save you, what will save you is the the Good will of the Father, after your faith has been tried with fire.

Having faith of your own does not automatically mean you receive salvation.

1 Peter 1:3-9

New International Version



Praise to God for a Living Hope
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

 

[Rufus]

The source originates in the flesh. It enslaves the heart (mind) because it is ignorant of God and has no way of knowing God being as we are born spiritually dead. But grace comes along, controls the flesh and enlightens the mind so the heart is free to accept or reject the truth shown. This is why no-one is with excuse for the grace of God ensures everyone answers to Him of their own free will just as Adam and Eve did. Under Calvinism, those in the Lake of Fire have an excuse. "God didn't pick me"

If the heart were in constant opposition (like the flesh is) it would mean God has created us as evil creatures. We are born neither good nor evil but are a "blank slate" with regards to character. Good and evil must be learned. There are those who prefer evil. They like it and those who don't prefer evil will never understand them and they us. That is the mystery of evil.

If by "flesh" you mean our sinful nature, yes. But if you mean something else such as our literal flesh that hangs off our bones, then no. We mustn't forget that one of the New Covenant promises is that God gives us a new heart (Ezek 36:26), not a new "flesh". Sin resides in the human heart which is "desperately wicked and deceitful above all else: (Jer 17:9). So much so, the prophet added this rhetorical question: "Who can understand it?"

 

[Genez]

You think God created the soul evil?

The soul is what God saves..... If it were intrinsically evil it could not be saved.

Some here do not realize that God creates our souls.
Our parents only produced the body which is fallen.

In that body is where our soul is enslaved to its corruption.
When we are saved God has delivered us from the tyranny that the flesh had over our soul.

That is why it is declared that we have been crucified with Christ!
In doing so, God declares that the flesh has no right over our souls any longer,
and we are told to reckon or flesh dead in regards to ruling over our desires and wishes.

Some think our parents produced our souls.
The reason believers can call God "Father" is because he has created our soul, not our parents.


Our soul is God's property, to do with as His Righteousness sees fit as he understands our soul's desires.

I, LORD JEHOVAH, examine the heart and test the emotions, ​

and give to a man according to his ways, and according to the ​

fruit of his deeds." Jeremiah 17:10​

grace and peace .....................

 

[Obedience]

The fire of the Holy Spirit can wash away evil.This fire of the Holy Spirit can be applied to anyone.Unlike the baptism of believers.This is entirely the power of God.Don't ask me why I know this, because I was burned by this fire.

 

[Dino246]

No im not going backwards, marks starts of by saying believe in The gospel and you will be saved.

I quoted what was to follow first before going back to the beginning of mark.

Your insinuation is i have flipped the scripture, and neither will you state your faith, which you are required to do.


Scripture will not save you, what will save you is the the Good will of the Father, after your faith has been tried with fire.

Having faith of your own does not automatically mean you receive salvation.

I did not insinuate anything. I stated plainly that you have the order of events backwards, according to Scripture.