Predestination is misunderstood...
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How about you stop talking about people behind their backs. No-one set you as anyone's judge.
We are saved by grace which is God's power to see His will done.
Has nothing to do with God doing anyone a favour. Get your facts straight before you criticize others.
2 Corinthians 12:9
And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
We are saved by grace which is God's power to see His will done.
Has nothing to do with God doing anyone a favour. Get your facts straight before you criticize others.
2 Corinthians 12:9
And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
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The sons of men are indeed "innately depraved". Everyone one of us is conceived in sin (Ps 51:5)! Who born of a woman can be pure (Job 15:14)? We sin precisely because we ARE sinners inherently. We inherited Adam's sin nature. As Jesus said, "If you being evil...." (Mat 7:11; 12:34), speaking to people's essence. And if only God alone is good (Mk 10:18), speaking to God's essence, then what does that say about mankind?
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The very first definition of "grace"in the M-W Collegiate Dictionary is "unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification. The second definition is APPROVAL, FAVOR. As I also stated a few days ago, "grace" has multiple definitions and there is certainly an aspect to it that includes KINDNESS, e.g. a disposition to or an act or instance of kindness, courtesy, clemency. But scripture also teaches that grace is divine power (Rom 6:14).
impossible to talk about people behind there back, in the a.public forum when I made a public statement as i have.
Your statement is delusional, and ridiculous, and also aimed at provoking people yet again. On a basis of calling brothers coward's who stab people in the back.
The only stabbing going on here is your attempt to stab a brother in the heart.
Which where both gutless and ott.
Your statement is delusional, and ridiculous, and also aimed at provoking people yet again. On a basis of calling brothers coward's who stab people in the back.
The only stabbing going on here is your attempt to stab a brother in the heart.
Which where both gutless and ott.
Strewth!
If human nature (which is derived from our soul) buy it's very design was depraved as you contend then not only have you accused God of creating evil (He alone creates our soul, doesn't come from our parents), you have also made it impossible for any of us to be saved.
Evil is rejecting truth and replacing it with a lie and it is out from this we commit sins. If our souls were against the Spirit of God in the same manner as our flesh, it would be impossible to believe the truth. Our souls would be in a constant state of rejection even with grace. He would have to lock away every soul eternally and not just those who have rejected Him from their own free will (made possible by grace).
Paul could not have willed to do the good if his soul was depraved in the same manner as his flesh. He agreed with the Law but couldn't do it because of the flesh (sin nature) constantly keeping him locked into a state of depravity.
I have discussed this at length with @Cameron143 how the soul becomes depraved but is not by nature depraved. You can go find those posts because I'm not repeating it all over again.
If human nature (which is derived from our soul) buy it's very design was depraved as you contend then not only have you accused God of creating evil (He alone creates our soul, doesn't come from our parents), you have also made it impossible for any of us to be saved.
Evil is rejecting truth and replacing it with a lie and it is out from this we commit sins. If our souls were against the Spirit of God in the same manner as our flesh, it would be impossible to believe the truth. Our souls would be in a constant state of rejection even with grace. He would have to lock away every soul eternally and not just those who have rejected Him from their own free will (made possible by grace).
Paul could not have willed to do the good if his soul was depraved in the same manner as his flesh. He agreed with the Law but couldn't do it because of the flesh (sin nature) constantly keeping him locked into a state of depravity.
I have discussed this at length with @Cameron143 how the soul becomes depraved but is not by nature depraved. You can go find those posts because I'm not repeating it all over again.
Then you call him a person who serves a God of evil.
Then you tell the whole forum why you have said this to him, as if some how your comments are justified.
Then you have the bare faced cheek to laugh about it.
Then you don't accept correction, and say I'm a coward.
Well sir your behavior has no part of Grace.
And you should quit talking to a brother like this
Being saved by an unmerited favor is still a favour, which ever way you look at it.
If I decide to give you something for nothing, then i would still be giving you something. If I decide to give you a favour for nothing,.I would still be giving you a favour.
God does not give salvation away for nothing
If he did then every single evil person would be given salvation.
He gives people salvation to those who hear the call and follow him. That is not giving you something for nothing.
Salvation is not nothing or something unmerited.
Unmerited equals nothing.
Salvation is not nothing.
Unmerited is a disgusting word.
If I decide to give you something for nothing, then i would still be giving you something. If I decide to give you a favour for nothing,.I would still be giving you a favour.
God does not give salvation away for nothing
If he did then every single evil person would be given salvation.
He gives people salvation to those who hear the call and follow him. That is not giving you something for nothing.
Salvation is not nothing or something unmerited.
Unmerited equals nothing.
Salvation is not nothing.
Unmerited is a disgusting word.
The Lord saved our souls.
God crucified our bodies.
Not total depravity...
Just a case of souls enslaved to the depravity of the flesh that needed to be made free by grace to stop being enslaved to depravity...
Why should God save a soul that is depraved? There could be no sacrifice for that....
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I have read again, and I'm still saying the same thing, that being saved by Grace is still being saved by something. And not nothing.
When a person says I am saved by something unmerited, they're really saying I am being saved by nothing.
Basically somethin becomes nothing.
No it's the other way around, you have nothing, and God decided to give something.
That something always remains something, and not nothing.
He gave you something called a first fruit ( a first seed) that changed your heart). It gave you a change of heart for the better Good.
Whilst you yourself don't recognise a fruit as a seed, the bible has reference to those recieving the first fruits of forgiveness in the old t.
There For the first seed you receive is mercy.
If the mercy seed takes hold in your heart, it becomes something.
If it doesn't hatch it remains nothing, and does not hatch, and also you then choose to see Grace as nothing to Like the word unmerited.
You would also choose to save yourself.
And Jesus says those who save there life's lose it.
Those who give there life's for his name sake (Jesus) gain it.
See once again Jesus is giving you something for something.
He is not giving you something for nothing.
,
When a person says I am saved by something unmerited, they're really saying I am being saved by nothing.
Basically somethin becomes nothing.
No it's the other way around, you have nothing, and God decided to give something.
That something always remains something, and not nothing.
He gave you something called a first fruit ( a first seed) that changed your heart). It gave you a change of heart for the better Good.
Whilst you yourself don't recognise a fruit as a seed, the bible has reference to those recieving the first fruits of forgiveness in the old t.
There For the first seed you receive is mercy.
If the mercy seed takes hold in your heart, it becomes something.
If it doesn't hatch it remains nothing, and does not hatch, and also you then choose to see Grace as nothing to Like the word unmerited.
You would also choose to save yourself.
And Jesus says those who save there life's lose it.
Those who give there life's for his name sake (Jesus) gain it.
See once again Jesus is giving you something for something.
He is not giving you something for nothing.
,
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While The "flesh" (translated from the Gr. "sarx") can literally mean, "flesh (as stripped of the skin", for example, it is used in other ways as well. "It [also] used symbolically of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties [physically or morally] and passions). or (specifically) human being (as such)".
A good example of how it's used of what is external can be seen in Jn 8:15 where many translations render "sarx" as the flesh. The NIV renders it "according to human standards'. The AMP version renders it as follows:
John 8:15
15 You [set yourselves up to] judge according to the flesh (by what you see). [You condemn by external, human standards.] I do not [set Myself up to] judge or condemn or sentence anyone.
AMP
But a text like Rom 8:3 reads this way in the AMP:
Rom 8:3
3 For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power] being weakened by the flesh [the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit]. Sending His own Son in the guise of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God] condemned sin in the flesh [subdued, overcame, deprived it of its power over all who accept that sacrifice], [Lev 7:37.]
AMP
Yesterday in my post 1703, I cited a few texts that speak to man's essence, i.e. our NATURE with words that denote being, e.g. "is", "are", "being", etc. Our essence is not merely flesh and bones. Our essence for example is "the permanent as contrasted with the accidental element of being". ("Accidental" is a philosophical term basically meaning "nonessential property".)
Essence also means the "real or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existence; the properties or attributes by means of which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is".
A great example of how this relates to humans is that our "real and ultimate nature" is actually immaterial, invisible; for the soul cannot be seen. But how we know that the soul is our "ultimate nature" is at death! Our bodies die and get buried in the ground, but the soul does not die. It stays alive and retains consciousness. The "soul" therefore, is the permanent whereas our bodies are our accidental", i.e. nonessential property").
Another essential property of man is our "heart", which is as essential as the organ that pumps blood. The human heart is also invisible and in it resides all our faculties -- mind, will, emotions and conscience. Of course, scripture speaks extensively to this essential part of our being, and the human heart is characterized as "desperately wicked and deceitful above all else" (Jer 17:9), which is not a very flattering description of the sons of men, is it?
So...the bottom line here is when Jesus told the Jews of his day that they were evil or that the entire generation was evil, he was not merely speaking about their physical anatomy. He was referring to their essence. To their nature. And since He also taught that only God alone is good (in His essence), then again -- as I asked yesterday -- where does this leave man? What middle option is there between Good and Evil? We either believe scripture and understand that Good and Evil exists or we don't. And if we believe this, then how do we categorize unregenerate mankind: Good or Evil?
Here's a link that goes a little bit more in death about the topic of the "flesh'.
https://www.gotquestions.org/the-flesh.html
A good example of how it's used of what is external can be seen in Jn 8:15 where many translations render "sarx" as the flesh. The NIV renders it "according to human standards'. The AMP version renders it as follows:
John 8:15
15 You [set yourselves up to] judge according to the flesh (by what you see). [You condemn by external, human standards.] I do not [set Myself up to] judge or condemn or sentence anyone.
AMP
But a text like Rom 8:3 reads this way in the AMP:
Rom 8:3
3 For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power] being weakened by the flesh [the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit]. Sending His own Son in the guise of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God] condemned sin in the flesh [subdued, overcame, deprived it of its power over all who accept that sacrifice], [Lev 7:37.]
AMP
Yesterday in my post 1703, I cited a few texts that speak to man's essence, i.e. our NATURE with words that denote being, e.g. "is", "are", "being", etc. Our essence is not merely flesh and bones. Our essence for example is "the permanent as contrasted with the accidental element of being". ("Accidental" is a philosophical term basically meaning "nonessential property".)
Essence also means the "real or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existence; the properties or attributes by means of which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is".
A great example of how this relates to humans is that our "real and ultimate nature" is actually immaterial, invisible; for the soul cannot be seen. But how we know that the soul is our "ultimate nature" is at death! Our bodies die and get buried in the ground, but the soul does not die. It stays alive and retains consciousness. The "soul" therefore, is the permanent whereas our bodies are our accidental", i.e. nonessential property").
Another essential property of man is our "heart", which is as essential as the organ that pumps blood. The human heart is also invisible and in it resides all our faculties -- mind, will, emotions and conscience. Of course, scripture speaks extensively to this essential part of our being, and the human heart is characterized as "desperately wicked and deceitful above all else" (Jer 17:9), which is not a very flattering description of the sons of men, is it?
So...the bottom line here is when Jesus told the Jews of his day that they were evil or that the entire generation was evil, he was not merely speaking about their physical anatomy. He was referring to their essence. To their nature. And since He also taught that only God alone is good (in His essence), then again -- as I asked yesterday -- where does this leave man? What middle option is there between Good and Evil? We either believe scripture and understand that Good and Evil exists or we don't. And if we believe this, then how do we categorize unregenerate mankind: Good or Evil?
Here's a link that goes a little bit more in death about the topic of the "flesh'.
https://www.gotquestions.org/the-flesh.html
God's Grace is Undeserved
Hopefully, these few passages will resolve this issue once and for all. God does not graciously act toward sinners because we're somehow worthy of his grace.
Deut 7:7-8
7 The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. 8 But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
NIV
And,
Deut 9:5-6
5 It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 6 Understand, then, that it is not because of your righteousness that the LORD your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff-necked people.
NIV
And,
Ps 106:8
8 Yet he saved them for his name's sake,
to make his mighty power known.
NIV
And,
Ezek 36:22, 32
22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone...32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!
NIV
And then we have these two passages from the NT:
Mark 1:7
7 And this was his message: "After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.
NIV
And,
Matt 8:8-10
8 The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."
10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
NIV
Brief comments on these last two passages: Jesus said John the Baptist was the greatest of all the [OT] prophets. (And, yes, he was an OT prophet, since his ministry ended prior to the institution of the New Covenant by Christ at the Last Supper.) So, if John wasn't worthy of the privilege of the Office of Prophet that God bestowed upon him by grace, then how much less are we worthy of his saving grace?
And with respect to the Roman centurion, Jesus praised the man for his great faith. And one would think that if the centurion's delegation was expressing his false humility that Jesus would have addressed that and rebuked him for it through his represetatives, instead of praising his faith.
The bottom line in both of these Gospel passages is that if any of us think that we're worthy of God's saving grace, then we'd be forced to conclude that both men's expressions of humility were either false or totally unnecessary.
You ever hear of receiving "Merit Badges" in the scouts?
Merit means 'a good done, deserving praise."
Learn that, please?
In the natural state you and I are in? We do not deserve squat from God. We are naturally found to be unworthy of God's praise.
Funny, your resisting and bumbling in your reasoning in this thread (which I am responding to) proves you do not merit God's approval. .... i;e.. "merit favor."
In the mean while? If we keep ourselves humble before God? God will give us grace!
Grace is a supernatural enabling power from God to cause us to act, think, and behave in a manner that does find merit with God.
Ironically, the enabling power of grace given to us makes us able to merit God's favor.
Its not unmerited favor! That's a mistake, too!
But grace is being given by God enabling power in the Spirit, so that we can merit His favor!
We are all like the story of blind men grabbing onto different parts of an elephant and getting it wrong.
Until truth opens our eyes. Opens our eyes by grace!
grace and peace ..............
Merit means 'a good done, deserving praise."
Learn that, please?
In the natural state you and I are in? We do not deserve squat from God. We are naturally found to be unworthy of God's praise.
Funny, your resisting and bumbling in your reasoning in this thread (which I am responding to) proves you do not merit God's approval.
.... i;e.. "merit favor."In the mean while? If we keep ourselves humble before God? God will give us grace!
Grace is a supernatural enabling power from God to cause us to act, think, and behave in a manner that does find merit with God.
Ironically, the enabling power of grace given to us makes us able to merit God's favor.
Its not unmerited favor! That's a mistake, too!
But grace is being given by God enabling power in the Spirit, so that we can merit His favor!
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may
rest on me. " 2 Cor 12:9
We are all like the story of blind men grabbing onto different parts of an elephant and getting it wrong.
Until truth opens our eyes. Opens our eyes by grace!
grace and peace ..............
You ever hear of receiving "Merit Badges" in the scouts?
Merit means 'a good done, deserving praise."
Learn that, please?
In the natural state you and I are in? We do not deserve squat from God. We are naturally found to be unworthy of God's praise.
Funny, your resisting and bumbling in your reasoning in this thread (which I am responding to) proves you do not merit God's approval. .... i;e.. "merit favor."
In the mean while? If we keep ourselves humble before God? God will give us grace!
Grace is a supernatural enabling power from God to cause us to act, think, and behave in a manner that does find merit with God.
Ironically, the enabling power of grace given to us makes us able to merit God's favor.
Its not unmerited favor! That's a mistake, too!
But grace is being given by God enabling power in the Spirit, so that we can merit His favor!
We are all like the story of blind men grabbing onto different parts of an elephant and getting it wrong.
Until truth opens our eyes. Opens our eyes by grace!
grace and peace ..............
Merit means 'a good done, deserving praise."
Learn that, please?
In the natural state you and I are in? We do not deserve squat from God. We are naturally found to be unworthy of God's praise.
Funny, your resisting and bumbling in your reasoning in this thread (which I am responding to) proves you do not merit God's approval.
.... i;e.. "merit favor."In the mean while? If we keep ourselves humble before God? God will give us grace!
Grace is a supernatural enabling power from God to cause us to act, think, and behave in a manner that does find merit with God.
Ironically, the enabling power of grace given to us makes us able to merit God's favor.
Its not unmerited favor! That's a mistake, too!
But grace is being given by God enabling power in the Spirit, so that we can merit His favor!
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may
rest on me. " 2 Cor 12:9
We are all like the story of blind men grabbing onto different parts of an elephant and getting it wrong.
Until truth opens our eyes. Opens our eyes by grace!
grace and peace ..............
That is just as bad as saying I'm saved by qn unmerited favour.
You can try to justify salvation as unmerited, all you like, it will never ever wash with me.
The fact is, you have all justified God's grace as a favour, not me.
Then you have all justified that favour as something that belongs to you, because your actions are not your fault.
Well when you will see that is load of self saving gratitude then you may see where it is I'm coming from.
Salvation come after being saved.
And not before.
.
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