Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[jamessb]

Exactly! And in the Heb 9 passage, the writer is very likely alluding to Isaiah 53.

I was going to include Rom 5:19 but many here are probably not familiar with literary device of Hebrew parallelism that Paul employed in that passage. But you're quite right. The "many" in v.9 qualifies the "all" in v.8.

Maybe some of us, according to you, are not familiar with literary device of Hebrew parallelism, but, unlike yourself, we do understand a basic truth of the Bible: Jesus died for all humankind.

 

[Rufus]

Why do you cherry pick verses and skip the most important ones? Only false doctrines do as such.


53:1 'Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed?

You must first BELIEVE in order to receive.



Look at Verse 26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.”
27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you"

It's a Command.
If they do not yield to these 2 Commands they do not receive what Jesus is offering.



Same Command they must OBEY in order to receive.



LOOK how you ignore verse 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved
From verse 10 on is the promise they get AFTER THEY CHOOSE TO ENTER.

You have to choose to enter first to get the Promise!



This has NOTHING to do with what you claim. This is about WORKS.



1 Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2 and all the brothers who are with me,

To the churches of Galatia:


It's a Letter describing how it's possible they are saved.



You completely ignore the Command in verse 1 that emphasizes the reason for verse 2.

Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children



You have completely ignored verse 11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

The Greek word (to ALL) in verse 11 is πᾶσιν which literally means to EVERYONE



You completely ignore the most important part of Peter's entire statement in Chapter 2

4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious



If you actually did use context like the first paragraph states it would be impossible to make your error. But since you have rejected the true verses predicated for the basis of your verses you prove you present deception.

You are a cherry picker and have ignored EVERY TRUTH relating to the verses you present.

Hmm...looks like I have encountered an aggressive, hostile non-Calvinist who doesn't know how to season his speech with grace. But....be that as it may, I have done no such thing. The scriptures I quoted tell us precisely for whom Christ died. He died for the Church. He died for many. He died for his sheep. He died for men (and women) from every tribe, tongue, people and nation. And, of course, it follows logically and even more importantly biblically that those for whom Christ died will come to faith and repentance. Have you never read:

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out?
ESV

Such is the magnificent beauty of Effectual Grace! The kind of grace that is spoken of in the New Covenant promises of Jer 31 and Ezek 36.

There's not one text in scripture that teaches that Jesus died for each and every person in the world. He died for the elect -- for those who the Father intimately, personally affectionately knew and predestined in eternity. In other words, Christ died for his Father's covenant people.

Now, I have a question for you: Don't you find it a wee bit odd that Christ in his high priestly prayer to his Father in John 17 specifically omitted all the non-elect in his prayer (v.9)? Here he was -- just hours away from the Cross -- and supposedly he would have known that he's going to lay down his life for each and every person in this world, right? Yet in spite of this knowledge, he purposely omits all the non-elect from his prayer. Why? Why would he do that? Do you have an intelligent, coherent answer for this perplexing inconsistency with non-Calvinistic views?

 

[Rufus]

Maybe some of us, according to you, are not familiar with literary device of Hebrew parallelism, but, unlike yourself, we do understand a basic truth of the Bible: Jesus died for all humankind.

Then make your case. Give me one text in scripture that says that Jesus died for each and every person in the world.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Hmm...looks like I have encountered an aggressive, hostile non-Calvinist who doesn't know how to season his speech with grace. But....be that as it may, I have done no such thing. The scriptures I quoted tell us precisely for whom Christ died. He died for the Church. He died for many. He died for his sheep. He died for men (and women) from every tribe, tongue, people and nation. And, of course, it follows logically and even more importantly biblically that those for whom Christ died will come to faith and repentance. Have you never read:

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out?
ESV

Such is the magnificent beauty of Effectual Grace! The kind of grace that is spoken of in the New Covenant promises of Jer 31 and Ezek 36.

There's not one text in scripture that teaches that Jesus died for each and every person in the world. He died for the elect -- for those who the Father intimately, personally affectionately knew and predestined in eternity. In other words, Christ died for his Father's covenant people.

Now, I have a question for you: Don't you find it a wee bit odd that Christ in his high priestly prayer to his Father in John 17 specifically omitted all the non-elect in his prayer (v.9)? Here he was -- just hours away from the Cross -- and supposedly he would have known that he's going to lay down his life for each and every person in this world, right? Yet in spite of this knowledge, he purposely omits all the non-elect from his prayer. Why? Why would he do that? Do you have an intelligent, coherent answer for this perplexing inconsistency with non-Calvinistic views?

You do know that Jesus is speaking about the Disciples in verse 36?
Clearly you do not.

God did say in verse 11, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways

Don't ever try and preach to me when you don't even know the heart of God!

 

[jamessb]

Hmm...looks like I have encountered an aggressive, hostile non-Calvinist who doesn't know how to season his speech with grace. But....be that as it may, I have done no such thing. The scriptures I quoted tell us precisely for whom Christ died. He died for the Church. He died for many. He died for his sheep. He died for men (and women) from every tribe, tongue, people and nation. And, of course, it follows logically and even more importantly biblically that those for whom Christ died will come to faith and repentance. Have you never read:

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out?
ESV

Such is the magnificent beauty of Effectual Grace! The kind of grace that is spoken of in the New Covenant promises of Jer 31 and Ezek 36.

There's not one text in scripture that teaches that Jesus died for each and every person in the world. He died for the elect -- for those who the Father intimately, personally affectionately knew and predestined in eternity. In other words, Christ died for his Father's covenant people.

Now, I have a question for you: Don't you find it a wee bit odd that Christ in his high priestly prayer to his Father in John 17 specifically omitted all the non-elect in his prayer (v.9)? Here he was -- just hours away from the Cross -- and supposedly he would have known that he's going to lay down his life for each and every person in this world, right? Yet in spite of this knowledge, he purposely omits all the non-elect from his prayer. Why? Why would he do that? Do you have an intelligent, coherent answer for this perplexing inconsistency with non-Calvinistic views?

You are, simply, wrong.,

 

[jamessb]

Then make your case. Give me one text in scripture that says that Jesus died for each and every person in the world.

Are you illiterate or just unfamiliar with scripture? I'll make it large and plain...

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

Is that clear enough for you???

If not, how about this...

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

Clearly, Jesus died for everyone!

 

[BillyBob]

Are you illiterate or just unfamiliar with scripture? I'll make it large and plain...

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

Is that clear enough for you???

If not, how about this...

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

Clearly, Jesus died for everyone!

I can see that you are beginning to be a little frustrated. Why don't you threaten to place Rufus on ignore like you do everyone else!

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out?
ESV

I got my verses mixed up.

Look at the verses that explain what verse 37 means
40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

The Greek word for everyone in verse 40 is πᾶς which means ALL, ANYONE. EVERYONE

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out?
ESV

What bothers me most about YOU RUFUS, is verse 37 in the ESV, WHICH YOU copy/pasted for use looks like this in John chapter 6

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

So verse 37 is GROUPED together in 6 verses because John groups verses for specific meaning.

And YOU RUFUS, ignored verses 35, 36, 38, 39, and 40

You are deceitful and a proven cherry picker.

 

[jamessb]

For everyone who is interested in the truth. Let's look at the whole picture...

God created the entire world. Everything that exists in it, including humans, was created by God. However, humans went astray right at the beginning, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God. They were the first to sin, and sin was thereby passed on to their progeny, i.e., everyone. God, being just, had to punish Adam and Eve and their progeny. He did this through sacrifice.

In the Old Testament, sins were paid for by substitutionary sacrifice. Rather than God insisting that a person be sacrificed for their sins, God permitted a substitute. Under the old covenant, this sacrifice was in the form of an animal: a sheep or a goat or a bull or a dove. Regardless, a life had to be sacrificed to atone (pay for) the sins committed.

In the New Testament, God created one final sacrifice for sins: His own Son! This sacrifice paid the sins for all people!!! (Please read that sentence again!) The sacrifice of Jesus Christ satisfied God's requirement that sin must be paid for -- a life for a life.

Now to whom does that sacrifice apply? TO EVERYONE!!! There is not one single person to whom that does not apply!

However, as has always been the case, the person must accept the fact that the sacrifice is a substitute for themselves and applies to her/him personally. If a person does not agree that the sacrifice is a substitution for her/his punishment, then the sacrifice is of no effect.

JESUS' SACRIFICE WAS MADE ON BEHALF OF ALL PEOPLE!!! THERE IS NOT A SINGLE PERSON TO WHOM IT DOESN'T APPLY. However, each person must accept the fact that the sacrifice of Jesus was done for them personally. If s/he doesn't accept that fact, then they will be punished for their sin(s).

It isn't any more complicated than that. Anyone who tells you that Jesus' sacrifice doesn't apply to all people is either deliberately lying or doesn't understand the truth that is so clearly stated in the Bible.

 

[brightfame52]

Do you always whine this much?

You here to boast about yourself and your family , scripture warns us 2 Tim 3:2

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

 

[brightfame52]

And you continue to just throw stuff out. Because you have nothing really to say to counter my argument.

Im satisfied knowing you dont believe that the Death of Christ saved them He died for. Frankly thats unbelief if you ask me

 

[brightfame52]

For everyone who is interested in the truth. Let's look at the whole picture...

God created the entire world. Everything that exists in it, including humans, was created by God. However, humans went astray right at the beginning, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God. They were the first to sin, and sin was thereby passed on to their progeny, i.e., everyone. God, being just, had to punish Adam and Eve and their progeny. He did this through sacrifice.

In the Old Testament, sins were paid for by substitutionary sacrifice. Rather than God insisting that a person be sacrificed for their sins, God permitted a substitute. Under the old covenant, this sacrifice was in the form of an animal: a sheep or a goat or a bull or a dove. Regardless, a life had to be sacrificed to atone (pay for) the sins committed.

In the New Testament, God created one final sacrifice for sins: His own Son! This sacrifice paid the sins for all people!!! (Please read that sentence again!) The sacrifice of Jesus Christ satisfied God's requirement that sin must be paid for -- a life for a life.

Now to whom does that sacrifice apply? TO EVERYONE!!! There is not one single person to whom that does not apply!

However, as has always been the case, the person must accept the fact that the sacrifice is a substitute for themselves and applies to her/him personally. If a person does not agree that the sacrifice is a substitution for her/his punishment, then the sacrifice is of no effect.

JESUS' SACRIFICE WAS MADE ON BEHALF OF ALL PEOPLE!!! THERE IS NOT A SINGLE PERSON TO WHOM IT DOESN'T APPLY. However, each person must accept the fact that the sacrifice of Jesus was done for them personally. If s/he doesn't accept that fact, then they will be punished for their sin(s).

It isn't any more complicated than that. Anyone who tells you that Jesus' sacrifice doesn't apply to all people is either deliberately lying or doesn't understand the truth that is so clearly stated in the Bible.

Warning, a False Gospel !

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Im satisfied knowing you dont believe that the Death of Christ saved them He died for. Frankly thats unbelief if you ask me

You still have nothing

The condemned are condemned because of unbelief

not because they committed personal sin.

when you have something, come see me.. we will talk

 

[jamessb]

Here is a simple analogy...

You are arrested for speeding (everyone speeds!). You are issued a summons and told you must appear in court on a certain date if you wish to appeal the summons. Now you have a choice...

1) You can choose not to appear, at which time you are determined to be guilty and must pay the fine as punishment.
2) You can choose to appear in court. Either of two things can happen...
a) You appear and find out that, even though you are guilty, another person has paid your fine and you are free to go.
b) You appear and are judged guilty and must pay the penalty yourself.

That is a simple way of understanding Jesus' sacrifice. It applies to all people! In the above analogy, nobody is told, when they appear before the judge, that the fine has not been paid by someone else. Everyone who appears before the judge is judged not guilty because someone else has paid the penalty.

The New Covenant is exactly the same! Everyone is guilty of sin (they have violated the law) and they must pay the penalty (death). However, God has accepted Jesus' death as substitutionary for every single person. There is not a single person to whom His death doesn't apply! However, each person must accept the fact that Jesus' died for them! If they do not accept that fact and won't accept Jesus as their savior, then they must pay the penalty: death.

If they accept Jesus Christ as their Savior who has paid the price for their sins, THEY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE!

=> Do not accept the foolish argument that Jesus didn't die for everyone!!! <=

 

[Rufus]

You do know that Jesus is speaking about the Disciples in verse 36?
Clearly you do not.

Quit projecting your failings unto me. V. 36 reads:

John 6:36
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
ESV

In other words, their profession of faith was superficial and therefore spurious. Recall Jesus' Parable of the Four Soils (Mat 13:3-8)? Only one of those soils was able to produce true believing, persevering, fruit-bearing disciples.

God did say in verse 11, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways

This is a non sequitur and has no relevance to the extent of Christ's atonement. All the passage proves is that God's wrath, condemnation and punishment is his strange work (Isa 28:21).

Don't ever try and preach to me when you don't even know the heart of God!

Now you're shouting at me? You seem to have some anger management issues. You're super defensive. Is your only defense to shout your opposition down, as though it proves your case? I'm starting to wonder if you have ever known the grace of God in your own heart?

And you don't have an intelligent, cool-headed, rational, coherent answer for the question I asked earlier about Jn 17:9? And where is the scripture I asked for that says that Christ died for each and every person in the world? Is your emphatic dogmatism built on nothing more than a flimsy house of cards?

 

[rogerg]

You still have nothing

The condemned are condemned because of unbelief

not because they committed personal sin.

when you have something, come see me.. we will talk

Disagree. Unbelief comes as a result of having been created as a sinner (unsaved), just as true belief comes as a result of having been made righteous (saved). Sin came from/by Adam, and is caused through the law, which law is manifested as natural desire in the unsaved to self-justify through works of law. By Christ's offering, which He freely imputes to those whom He had chosen to salvation, and not by (their) belief, are many made righteous. Notice in the below verse, the word "made": "made" sinners and "made" righteous. With the word "made", we are informed that to go from unsaved to saved, is not within the power of the unsaved; neither is it within the power of the saved to go from saved to unsaved - both were/are made as such, but not because of themselves. Therefore, neither is it within the power of the unsaved of themselves to give to themselves true belief in Christ, nor within the power of the saved of themselves to not have true belief in Christ. True belief comes only with/by/from salvation as its byproduct and gift, or it will not come at all. And once given, true belief can never depart. It is all of God's work alone, none of it ours, and thereby, we expend no work/effort for it making it by grace.

[Rom 5:19 KJV] 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Notice in the following verses that the strength of sin is not unbelief but law. However, it also tells us that is only by and fully through Jesus Christ, that we are given victory over sin and death, and not a result of our belief. That is why verse 57 says "thanks be to God".
It is because victory over sin and death comes from Him alone and not us.

[1Co 15:55-57 KJV]
55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Quit projecting your failings unto me. V. 36 reads:

John 6:36
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
ESV

In other words, their profession of faith was superficial and therefore spurious. Recall Jesus' Parable of the Four Soils (Mat 13:3-8)? Only one of those soils was able to produce true believing, persevering, fruit-bearing disciples.



This is a non sequitur and has no relevance to the extent of Christ's atonement. All the passage proves is that God's wrath, condemnation and punishment is his strange work (Isa 28:21).


Now you're shouting at me? You seem to have some anger management issues. You're super defensive. Is your only defense to shout your opposition down, as though it proves your case? I'm starting to wonder if you have ever known the grace of God in your own heart?

And you don't have an intelligent, cool-headed, rational, coherent answer for the question I asked earlier about Jn 17:9? And where is the scripture I asked for that says that Christ died for each and every person in the world? Is your emphatic dogmatism built on nothing more than a flimsy house of cards?

Now I understand more of why you have no clue about the word of God. The fact that you do not know that Christ Jesus is the LORD GOD in that verse is flat out alarming. And since that is the pre-incarnate Jesus, we know He is the SAME yesterday, today, and forever. He NEVER changes. And when He said He does not want the wicked to die and to repent, that's part of why He is the Chosen ONE who died for the sins of the Greek word (kosmos) meaning the Universe, All of creation.

Since you have proven you don't even know who is who in the Bible you should quit before really making a flop of yourself.

 

[Rufus]

Here is a simple analogy...

You are arrested for speeding (everyone speeds!). You are issued a summons and told you must appear in court on a certain date if you wish to appeal the summons. Now you have a choice...

1) You can choose not to appear, at which time you are determined to be guilty and must pay the fine as punishment.
2) You can choose to appear in court. Either of two things can happen...
a) You appear and find out that, even though you are guilty, another person has paid your fine and you are free to go.
b) You appear and are judged guilty and must pay the penalty yourself.

That is a simple way of understanding Jesus' sacrifice. It applies to all people! In the above analogy, nobody is told, when they appear before the judge, that the fine has not been paid by someone else. Everyone who appears before the judge is judged not guilty because someone else has paid the penalty.

The New Covenant is exactly the same! Everyone is guilty of sin (they have violated the law) and they must pay the penalty (death). However, God has accepted Jesus' death as substitutionary for every single person. There is not a single person to whom His death doesn't apply! However, each person must accept the fact that Jesus' died for them! If they do not accept that fact and won't accept Jesus as their savior, then they must pay the penalty: death.

If they accept Jesus Christ as their Savior who has paid the price for their sins, THEY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE!

=> Do not accept the foolish argument that Jesus didn't die for everyone!!! <=

Sadly, it's not a biblical analogy. Again...going by a non-Calvinistic understanding of foreknowledge, didn't God know in eternity who would show up in court? So, what is logical about the Son dying for all those who He and his Father knew in eternity would not show up?

You should stick with scripture to make your analogies. Since you brought up the New Covenant, your analogy should be based on its promises contained in Jer 31 and Ezek 36.

 

[Rufus]

Now I understand more of why you have no clue about the word of God. The fact that you do not know that Christ Jesus is the LORD GOD in that verse is flat out alarming. And since that is the pre-incarnate Jesus, we know He is the SAME yesterday, today, and forever. He NEVER changes. And when He said He does not want the wicked to die and to repent, that's part of why He is the Chosen ONE who died for the sins of the Greek word (kosmos) meaning the Universe, All of creation.

Since you have proven you don't even know who is who in the Bible you should quit before really making a flop of yourself.

And where does Jesus say what you claim?

And since you brought up flops, what does avoidance of my two questions say about you?