When did the Trinitarian concept enter and disrupt the strict monotheistic religion of Judaism and early Christianity?

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May 1, 2022
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#62
So in fact you are Anti-Trinitarian, but will not honestly admit it. Since you prefer "traditional Jewish thought" kindly identify yourself.
Well since we are discussing or disregarding this Trinity verse and we are adopting a John point of view we then need to ask some questions about John.
If this was meant completely for John then why didn’t John check for these signs before the baptism?
The actual act of baptizing is what fulfilled all righteousness. Therefore the sign wouldn't appear until then.

How does John know that Jesus is the anointed one before baptism and who is he saying “look” to?
The crowd who didn’t see the Dove and heard the voice of The Father?
You already answered who "Look" is directed toward. John wouldn't have known until the baptism.
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
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#63
The actual act of baptizing is what fulfilled all righteousness. Therefore the sign wouldn't appear until then.


You already answered who "Look" is directed toward. John wouldn't have known until the baptism.
Does this mean that John was pretty bad at his job or does this mean that some people interpret scripture with a lot of spices and wine?

We do have other “when-s” though. Mathew 28:19.
That‘s when Trinity happened officially.
 
May 1, 2022
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#64
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Concerning the trinity... the Father, the Son, and the Spirit... are One!

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... One is Three, and the Three are One.
The earliest Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, as well as the earliest translations into other languages (such as Latin, Syriac, and Coptic), do not include 1 John 5:7. The verse does not appear in any Greek manuscript before the 14th century, and even then, it appears in only a handful of late medieval manuscripts.

The passage first emerges in Latin manuscripts. The earliest known instance of the Comma Johanneum in a Latin manuscript dates from the 8th century, though it was likely cited by Latin Church Fathers in a more indirect form as early as the 4th century. However, its absence in the majority of both Greek and Latin manuscripts suggests it was not part of the original text.


The verse may have initially arisen as a marginal note or gloss, added for theological clarification or emphasis on the concept of the Trinity. Over time, such notes could be mistakenly incorporated into the text itself by scribes.

Once 1 John 5:7 found its way into a few Latin manuscripts, it began to be copied into subsequent Latin manuscripts. Its presence in the influential Latin Vulgate translation solidified its place in the Western Christian tradition, despite its absence in the majority of earlier and authoritative Greek manuscripts.

With the rise of textual criticism in the early modern period, scholars began to evaluate the authenticity of biblical passages based on manuscript evidence. Erasmus, the Renaissance humanist and scholar, initially did not include the verse in his first editions of the Greek New Testament because he could not find it in any Greek manuscripts. He added it to his later editions after a Greek manuscript containing it was produced, likely under pressure from those who insisted on its inclusion due to its theological significance.

Most modern translations of the Bible, which rely on the best available manuscript evidence, either omit 1 John 5:7 or include it with a footnote indicating that it is not found in the earliest manuscripts. This reflects a commitment to presenting a text that is as close as possible to the original writings.

God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

That's the Father, the Word, and the Spirit saying "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

This pretty much ends the controversy for those that believe God's Word. :cool:
The Book of Genesis, composed within the context of ancient Israelite religion and culture, does not explicitly articulate the concept of the Trinity, which was developed within early Christianity centuries later. The original audience of Genesis would have understood "God" (Hebrew: Elohim) in the context of the strict monotheism characteristic of Judaism.

The plural form "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" has been subject to various interpretations within Jewish and Christian traditions. Some Jewish interpretations suggest that God is speaking to the heavenly court of angels or using the "royal we" as a form of majestic plural. Early Christian interpreters, reading this passage in light of the New Testament, have seen in the plural language a hint of the Trinitarian nature of God, but this is a man-made interpretative lens applied retrospectively.

One common Jewish understanding of this plural language is that God is deliberating or consulting with His heavenly court, consisting of angels or celestial beings. This interpretation maintains strict monotheism by clarifying that the decision and act of creation are solely God's, with the heavenly court having no creative power of their own. They are, instead, participants in a divine council, reflecting the ancient Near Eastern motif of a supreme deity consulting with lesser beings, but adapted within a monotheistic framework to underscore the uniqueness and sovereignty of the one God. Another perspective within this strict monotheistic view suggests the use of the "royal we" or "majestic plural," a linguistic form where a singular sovereign refers to themselves with plural pronouns to denote dignity, majesty, or excellence. This usage would underscore the transcendence and majesty of God without implying the existence of multiple divine beings.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#65
The statement that "Judaism" only came into existence after the Jews rejected Christ is not accurate from both a historical and biblical perspective. Judaism as a religion predates Christianity by thousands of years, with its roots going back to the ancient Israelites and their covenant with God as depicted in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh), which includes the Torah (Pentateuch), the Prophets (Nevi'im), and the Writings (Ketuvim). This body of religious texts and laws defined Jewish belief and practice long before the birth of Jesus Christ.

The emergence of Christianity in the 1st century CE occurred within the context of Second Temple Judaism. Jesus, his disciples, and the earliest Christians were Jews who initially sought to reform and reinterpret Jewish beliefs and practices. Over time, as Christianity spread beyond Jewish communities and embraced Gentiles, it developed its distinct beliefs, practices, and identity, leading to the gradual separation of Christianity from Judaism.

Thus, rather than Judaism beginning after the rejection of Christ, it is more accurate to say that Christianity emerged from within the Jewish tradition as a new religious movement that eventually differentiated itself in significant ways. Both religions share common roots, but each has a unique history and set of beliefs that developed over centuries.


The statement that "The Old Testament presents the Holy Trinity several times, and the ancient rabbis did believe that Messiah would be divine" is not accurate according to traditional Jewish interpretation and historical rabbinical teachings.

First, the concept of the Holy Trinity—as understood in mainstream Christian theology as the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit being three persons in one Godhead—is not explicitly presented in the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible). The Hebrew Bible emphasizes the oneness of God, most famously in the Shema, a foundational prayer in Judaism found in Deuteronomy 6:4, which declares, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." Jewish interpretation historically has understood God's nature as strictly monotheistic, without division into distinct persons as in the concept of the Trinity.

While Christians may interpret certain Old Testament passages as allusions to the Trinity, these interpretations are through a Christian theological lens and are not in line with traditional Jewish thought or exegesis. For example, passages where God speaks in the plural (e.g., Genesis 1:26, "Let us make man in our image...") have been interpreted by Jewish scholars in various ways that do not imply a Trinitarian concept, such as God consulting with the heavenly court or using a majestic plural.

Second, regarding the Messiah, traditional Jewish beliefs do not hold that the Messiah would be divine. Jewish messianic expectations are centered on a future human leader, a descendant of King David, who will reign during an era of peace and divine favor, restoring the Jewish people to their homeland and rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem. The divinity of the Messiah is a concept that diverges significantly from Jewish teachings.
So you conclude that NT is a deep fake and Jesus is not Who He says that He is?

Supposed scholarly hypothesis aside, you still need to deal with this:

Jhn 5:45
“Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust.
Jhn 5:46
“For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.


Jhn 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
 
May 1, 2022
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#66
So in fact you are Anti-Trinitarian, but will not honestly admit it. Since you prefer "traditional Jewish thought" kindly identify yourself.
The Bible was written within the confines of traditional jewish thought. That is why I adhere to strict Monotheism. Saying we have 3 distinct separate persons does not make ONE God. I am not Jewish or subscribe to any one denomination, I only try and follow what scripture plainly points out.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#68
Three.....

Isa 43:3
For I am the LORD your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I gave Egypt for your ransom,
Ethiopia and Seba in your place.

Three.....

Isa 48:16
“Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”

Conclusive.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#69
May 1, 2022
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#70
Right out of you own mouth.....
https://christianchat.com/threads/w...sm-and-early-christianity.214560/post-5269536

Jesus Christ is the YHVH of the OT. You might want to check that out.

Jhn 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
I know that and never would deny it. Just was stating what the Jews at the time thought, not my thoughts. They wanted a Messiah to destroy the Romans and bring peace. They wanted an earthly ruler not the Divine God he claimed to be.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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#71
The Bible was written within the confines of traditional jewish thought. That is why I adhere to strict Monotheism. Saying we have 3 distinct separate persons does not make ONE God. I am not Jewish or subscribe to any one denomination, I only try and follow what scripture plainly points out.
If I understand your purposefully vague posts, you DO believe Jesus Christ is God in the flesh.

That's a pretty good start for most who deny the Trinty. I believe you are advocating some type of modalism, which is heresy.

But let me ask you this.
There are many passages that speak of Jesus sitting NEXT TO His Father. how can this be if both He, and His Father are not separate?

Romans 8:34

New King James Version

34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#72
Please read all this carefully when considering this discussion. I want everything to be done with true humility and Scriptural and verifiable research. Thank You and God Bless.

My Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Noone on Earth brings new revelation, that isn't already revealed through the Word of God (Jesus Christ), which is fullest revelation given to man. Through the moving and operation of the Holy Ghost, I Pray what we say here brings the truth of these Revelations, truth by truth, or precept upon precept, to the heart of the hearer. Lay what we say before the feet of Jesus (Word of God) and compare, the Bible is Always truth, so if they don't match, we need to reevaluate our stance. What we say or do here will have lasting impact upon the believer and sinner alike. We most certainly have freedom of speech, but any true christian will weigh what they say against the Word of God and if they don't agree God is not in error, and we need to pray for understanding. Those that have more meat of the Word can help those who are struggling, if done with humility, peace and love. I don't mind a peaceful debate, but when we start to argue amongst each other that is not the Spirit of God. God Bless and Peace to you all. (This signature is in general and not pointing fingers at anyone at anytime. God Bless.)
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I Will kick it off with this:

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The phrase "I am" is significant because it echoes a name for God used in the Hebrew Bible (Exodus 3:14). When God revealed himself to Moses through a burning bush, he said "I am that I am" (or "I AM WHO I AM") This emphasizes God's self-existence and eternal nature.

Here, Jesus is not simply saying that He is older than Abraham. This is not just a claim to pre-existence before birth. He does not say, “Before Abraham was, I was” or “I was there before Abraham.” Jesus uses a particular formulation that is God’s name in the Old Testament as revealed to Moses at the burning bush. Moses asked God for His name in case the Israelites inquired who had sent him. God replied, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you’” (Exodus 3:14).

The significance and the perceived audacity of Jesus’ proclamation can be found in the response of the people who heard Him say it: “At this, they picked up stones to stone him” (John 8:59). From their response, we can see that they considered Jesus’ statement to be blasphemy.

In all the other things that Jesus had said to them, nothing caused them to take up stones to stone Him. It was not until he claimed to be “I AM,” the God of the Old Testament, that they attempted to stone Him. For a mere mortal or even some sort of heavenly being to claim to be I AM was blasphemy, for that name can only be used of God. Jesus is claiming not only to exist before Abraham, but to be self-existent before Abraham—something that is true of God and God alone.
OT types of this kind are everywhere and unmistakable.
Divine watermarks obviously.

Abraham - God the Father
Issac - God the Son
Eliezer - Son the Spirit
Rebekah - the Church
 
May 1, 2022
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#73
If I understand your purposefully vague posts, you DO believe Jesus Christ is God in the flesh.

That's a pretty good start for most who deny the Trinty. I believe you are advocating some type of modalism, which is heresy.

But let me ask you this.
There are many passages that speak of Jesus sitting NEXT TO His Father. how can this be if both He, and His Father are not separate?

Romans 8:34

New King James Version

34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Regarding Jesus sitting next to the Father, He Himself told us about His future exaltation. For instance, in Matthew 26:64, Jesus says to the high priest, "From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." This position at the right hand of God signifies a place of honor and authority, not separation in essence. It's a fulfillment of the scriptures and a testament to His victory over sin and death, granting Him all authority in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18).

The idea of Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father also speaks to His intercessory role for us as believers. He is our mediator (1 Timothy 2:5), advocating on our behalf (1 John 2:1). This doesn't mean He is separate from God in His divine nature; rather, it highlights His unique role in God's redemptive plan.

In our Lord's teachings and His prayers, particularly the prayer He offered on our behalf before His crucifixion, He spoke of the unity He shared with the Father—a unity He desired for us, His followers, to share in as well (John 17:21-23). This profound unity, which encompasses the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, was something He revealed to us over time, helping us understand the depth of God's love and the mystery of our salvation.

So, in light of what Jesus taught us and what we witnessed in His life, death, and resurrection, we see no contradiction in speaking of Jesus sitting next to the Father. It's a statement about His role, authority, and the fulfillment of His mission, all within the unity of the one God whom we worship and serve.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#74
The Bible was written within the confines of traditional jewish thought. That is why I adhere to strict Monotheism. Saying we have 3 distinct separate persons does not make ONE God. I am not Jewish or subscribe to any one denomination, I only try and follow what scripture plainly points out.
What exactly this distinctiveness may be in the Trinity no one can possibly define.
The infinite God is only known by what He reveals to us. The fullness will probably never be known by any created being.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,005
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#75
Regarding Jesus sitting next to the Father, He Himself told us about His future exaltation. For instance, in Matthew 26:64, Jesus says to the high priest, "From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." This position at the right hand of God signifies a place of honor and authority, not separation in essence. It's a fulfillment of the scriptures and a testament to His victory over sin and death, granting Him all authority in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18).

The idea of Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father also speaks to His intercessory role for us as believers. He is our mediator (1 Timothy 2:5), advocating on our behalf (1 John 2:1). This doesn't mean He is separate from God in His divine nature; rather, it highlights His unique role in God's redemptive plan.

In our Lord's teachings and His prayers, particularly the prayer He offered on our behalf before His crucifixion, He spoke of the unity He shared with the Father—a unity He desired for us, His followers, to share in as well (John 17:21-23). This profound unity, which encompasses the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, was something He revealed to us over time, helping us understand the depth of God's love and the mystery of our salvation.

So, in light of what Jesus taught us and what we witnessed in His life, death, and resurrection, we see no contradiction in speaking of Jesus sitting next to the Father. It's a statement about His role, authority, and the fulfillment of His mission, all within the unity of the one God whom we worship and serve.
OK. So what is it about the Trinity that you find questionable?
 
May 1, 2022
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#76
OK. So what is it about the Trinity that you find questionable?
Probably the same thing most do. How can you 3 separate persons and still maintain they are absolutely ONE.

From a monotheistic viewpoint, the paramount emphasis is on the absolute, indivisible oneness of God. This perspective is rooted in passages such as the Shema in Deuteronomy 6:4, which declares, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." The understanding here is that God's unity is singular and uncompounded, not allowing for any division or plurality within the divine essence. The concept of the Trinity, which describes one God in three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), can be seen as challenging this strict understanding of divine oneness by introducing a complexity that seems to conflict with the idea of God's singular unity.

Strict monotheist point to the development of the Trinity doctrine as not explicitly articulated in the scriptures but as a theological construction that emerged several centuries after the biblical texts were written. They may argue that key passages used to support the Trinity are subject to interpretation or, like the Comma Johanneum (1 John 5:7-8 in some translations), not present in the earliest manuscript traditions, suggesting that the doctrine was developed in the context of later theological debates rather than directly from Jesus’ teachings or the apostolic message.

Maintaining the absolute oneness of God is not only a matter of scriptural fidelity but also of theological clarity and coherence. The introduction of the Trinity, with its distinction of persons within the unity of the Godhead, can be viewed as complicating the straightforward monotheistic message of the Hebrew Bible and the teachings of Jesus.

Another point of concern may involve the historical development of the Trinity doctrine, which was formalized through the ecumenical councils of the early Church centuries after the New Testament period. Strict monotheists might question the legitimacy of doctrinal formulations that were the result of ecclesiastical debates and decisions, rather than being clearly delineated in the biblical texts themselves.

concerns with the Trinity revolve around the implications for understanding the oneness of God, the basis and development of the doctrine in scripture and early Christian history, and the theological implications for the relationship between God and humanity. These concerns are rooted in a desire to maintain a clear and uncomplicated affirmation of God’s singular unity.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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#77
So, in light of what Jesus taught us and what we witnessed in His life, death, and resurrection, we see no contradiction in speaking of Jesus sitting next to the Father. It's a statement about His role, authority, and the fulfillment of His mission, all within the unity of the one God whom we worship and serve.
Your whole explanation is a contrivance to fit a heretical view.

A past poster talked about Jesus' Baptism, where the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were Present, at the same time, as separate entities.


I think I should point out, that although this site does allow some discussion on this subject, it views modalism as heresy and will only allow a non trinitarian preaching position for a limited time.

I suspect you may know this, and that could account for you not just directly coming out and saying that the Trinity is a false doctrine.
 
Dec 29, 2023
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#78
The earliest Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, as well as the earliest translations into other languages (such as Latin, Syriac, and Coptic), do not include 1 John 5:7. The verse does not appear in any Greek manuscript before the 14th century, and even then, it appears in only a handful of late medieval manuscripts.

Even IF this were actually true...

Ever notice all the scriptures about the Father?
Ever notice all the scriptures about the Jesus?
Ever notice all the scriptures about the Holy Spirit?

You'll need to explain away all these scriptures too.


The Book of Genesis, composed within the context of ancient Israelite religion and culture, does not explicitly articulate the concept of the Trinity, which was developed within early Christianity centuries later. The original audience of Genesis would have understood "God" (Hebrew: Elohim) in the context of the strict monotheism characteristic of Judaism.

Mankind was created in God's likeness and man is spirit, soul, and body as ONE

You cannot explain this fact away. Sorry about you having a bad day unable to explain this way.
 
May 1, 2022
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#79
Mankind was created in God's likeness and man is spirit, soul, and body as ONE
You cannot explain this fact away. Sorry about you having a bad day unable to explain this way.
True, but Inseparably One. Where as the Trinity is taking the ONE God and making Him separate persons. That is not ONE God.
 
Dec 29, 2023
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#80
True, but Inseparably One. Where as the Trinity is taking the ONE God and making Him separate persons. That is not ONE God.

You need to read God's Word sometime.

Jesus said He only does what the Father does and only says what the Father says clearly indicating He and the Father are two but at the same time Jesus said He and His Father were one.

When Jesus was baptized, the Father said this is my beloved Sin in Whom I am well pleased but these two are one because they agree perfectly.

Jesus said the Holy Spirit would not speak on His own and would only speak what He hears clearly indicating He and the Holy Spirit are two and yet at the same time they agree perfectly with one another so they are one.

The Truth of the matter is God is One and Three all at the same time.

The problem comes in when some people try to wrap their little peanut brain around this and they go bonkers :ROFL: